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Air Rage And Alone Female F/As  
User currently offlineFlyboy80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1879 posts, RR: 3
Posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3480 times:

I was just wanting some pilot feedback on this issue from their point of view, however everyone else is welcomed to put in their two cents of course! My mom is a FA for a little regional airline in the Northwest United States. Most of the aircraft she flies have two F/As, however it really worries me now as she’s getting older when she works the Q200 because she is all by her self back there. Another family member works at Skywest, and recently worked a flight where the two F/As were assaulted by a crazy Women on a flight from EUG-DEN. My mom being 50, I sometimes worry about her ability to defend her self, and was curious to know how the public, and other crew would react in a situation where a pissed of passenger, or even a terrorist oriented attacker tried to attack your crew? I know for me I would be out of my seat in a two seconds. I understand the concept that the flight deck has to be defended at all costs, and that the pilots may not exit for any reason when a threat arises. I’m in flight school and I can tell you, if I’m sitting up front in a CR2 and my F/A is getting her ass beat by a 200 pound man, I would say screw policy this isn’t going to happen because its not right, and I would hope most ABPs would think the same! I just was interested in some feedback, thanks guys!

19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineJgold47 From Djibouti, joined Mar 2005, 95 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3470 times:

I wouldnt leave. No Offense, but I am not going to get out of that flight deck for anything. How much more damage could that plane do, if the cockpit was compromised and flown into a school for example? While your chauvanism and desire to protect your crew is laudable, you would be making a very bad mistake to comproimse the security and saftey of 1) the other passengers, and of your airline. Your mom is fully aware of the challenges and risks of flying as an FA. I am not directly related to this industry, but from a common sense point of view, it seems to me that you understand this as a risk. Additionally arnt FA given self defense trainig? I understand that putting it use against an actual angry passenger is antoher story entirely, but that should be a consideration as well? Finally, dont forget that your mom does not fly alone. she has a plane full of other passengers. I cant imagine too many people, from 80 yr old blue hairs to business people to kids who would let a passenger assualt a somewhat defenseless FA without trying to help. Just my .02

User currently offlineFlyboy80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1879 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3446 times:

Yes I full agree with your point of view as well. But it would definately depend on the situation for me. Because, obviously, I would picture my mom back there being assualted. When you think of it that why, it changes your point of view some what. Sometimes I think the problems would be less of an issue if CS wouldn't be extremely cut throat with who they allow boarding. I know sometimes they have several issues with certain pax on the ground and often don't deny boarding... thanks!

User currently offlineAa757first From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3350 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3428 times:

Quoting Flyboy80,reply 0:
I’m in flight school and I can tell you, if I’m sitting up front in a CR2 and my F/A is getting her ass beat by a 200 pound man, I would say screw policy this isn’t going to happen because its not right,

That would probably be the absolute worst thing you could ever do to yourself, your crew and your passengers. If someone has a gun back there and is shooting your flight attendants and passengers one-by-one, I believe proper procedures required flight crew to remain in their cockpits. Remember, policy exists for a reason.

AAndrew


User currently offlineTheSorcerer From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2005, 1048 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3428 times:

I think any self-respecting guy is gonna give a guy that attacks an FA a good whack in the face.
Dominic



ALITALIA,All Landings In Torino, All Luggage In Athens ;)
User currently offlineCopter808 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1111 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3363 times:

Definitely DO NOT leave the cockpit!!!!!!

Although your intentions may be to save the FA, you risk injury or death to EVERYONE onboard, including the FA.

A good way to put things into perspective is to "back play" a scenerio. Work through the incident from the end result, forward to the initial problem. If you can't justify any step, knowing the end result, maybe ya hadn't oughtta do it in the first place!

The odds are that if you leave the cockpit to assist the FA, nothing serious will happen. But What if...?


User currently offlineRolfen From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 1809 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3338 times:

I trust the passengers to help the crew in extreme cases. I know that I would (as a passenger).


rolf
User currently offlineCorsairf/a From France, joined Oct 2000, 373 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3318 times:

That is one of many reason why Virgin changed is policy towards male cabin crew. When I was hired by Corsair in 1995 the airline started to hire many male cabin crew because of the growing number of air rage ....

User currently offlineMoparman From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 411 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3318 times:

Quoting Flyboy80 (Thread starter):
and my F/A is getting her ass beat by a 200 pound man,

I think there will be a number of male passengers that will take care of the jack..s I really don't think it's anything to worry about. Even if it isn't on a plane, but say a parking garage or something like that. Many guys will rush to help a woman who is being beaten by a guy. We had a similar situation here at the hospital a while back in our parking garage. One of our nurses was assulted by her ex-husband. An orderly was just coming in. He saw this and took action against the man. As soon as he saw him coming towards him, he completely shifted his focus away from his ex-wife.

This is something I tell my wife at times, because I do worry about her being alone at night going shopping. Women have an illusion of strength. She has said many times that she can handle herself against a guy I guess because she is almost 5' 10". I disagree, and I have told her that a normal sized man will not only physically overpower her, but he will not even break a sweat doing it. This is something women DO NOT seem to understand in general.

I wish you mother well, but I think that if she were attacked, there would quickly be several male passengers there to help her out as it is instinctive behavior for men to tend to protect women.

[Edited 2006-02-20 19:30:05]


"Harming a patient is unethical, but I can inflict as much pain as I like" Dr. Phlox
User currently offlineJetdeltamsy From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2987 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3266 times:

Quoting Flyboy80 (Thread starter):
if I’m sitting up front in a CR2 and my F/A is getting her ass beat by a 200 pound man, I would say screw policy

And hopefully you would be fired for doing so.

The cockpit must remain secure at all cost. A scuffle with a flight attendant could be a ruse to gain entry into the cockpit by others on the aircraft.

Flight attendants are well informed that threats like this are a part of the job. You accept these conditions or you move on.



Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
User currently offlineFlyboy80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1879 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3136 times:

There is definitely a point in which I would, as all people do, realize what appropriate action must be taken in a situation. Each emergency will be different, and variations of procedures need to be adopted to resolve each incident, in this business I know nothing is text book. Look at 9/11. The F/As were trained to be passive with terrorists, a slight but integral part of their training. That didn't work on 9/11.

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 9):
The cockpit must remain secure at all cost. A scuffle with a flight attendant could be a ruse to gain entry into the cockpit by others on the aircraft.

very understandable, everyone in the industry knows about this, thanks anyways. I’m not directly referring to a terrorist threat, more or less disgruntled pax of any type posing a risk to the safety of the flight. In addition I will add terrorist attackers know about reinforced cockpit entry doors, etc. They wouldn't attempt another hijacking unless they had an effective plan to breach the flight deck, then again I question their common sense. One thing that bothers me, only slightly, is the fact that pilots have to leave the flight deck sometimes to use the lav...etc. The F/A goes upfront, we all know the drill. Anyways, I think this would open the flight up to attack to a terrorist oriented threat.

I’m simply interested in the way others view this so thank you to everyone giving me their feedback!


User currently offlineTurnit56N From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2977 times:

When you have some more experience in the industry, you'll know better.

Quoting Flyboy80 (Thread starter):
if I’m sitting up front in a CR2 and my F/A is getting her ass beat by a 200 pound man, I would say screw policy this isn’t going to happen because its not right

No, it's not right, but if you say screw policy in this situation you should and would be fired for knowingly endangering the lives of every single passenger in your care as well as who knows how many others on the ground.

Quoting Flyboy80 (Reply 2):
But it would definately depend on the situation for me

It shouldn't. This is an absolute.

Quoting Flyboy80 (Reply 10):
I’m not directly referring to a terrorist threat, more or less disgruntled pax of any type posing a risk to the safety of the flight. In addition I will add terrorist attackers know about reinforced cockpit entry doors, etc. They wouldn't attempt another hijacking unless they had an effective plan to breach the flight deck

Very, very true.....and here's the plan:

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 9):
A scuffle with a flight attendant could be a ruse to gain entry into the cockpit by others on the aircraft.

Precisely. This is a classic distraction to get the cockpit door open. They stage a scuffle, you open the door to assist your FA, the next thing you know you are laying in a bleeding puddle in the aisle and the other pilot's throat is slit by the terrorist waiting in the first row for just that opportunity. The aisle is blocked by the other terrorist and the FA scuffling, preventing other passengers from coming to your aid before you are dead and the terrorist is at the controls of your airplane.

I don't normally get this pointed, especially with a student pilot, but the cockpit door is the most important weapon, if not the only weapon, that pilots have. Hopefully by the time you are sitting forward of the cockpit door you will have changed your stance.


User currently offlineMiCorazonAzul From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2910 times:

Quoting Flyboy80 (Thread starter):
I know for me I would be out of my seat in a two seconds.

wrong wrong wrong. You can't leave the flight deck regardless of what is going on...that's the whole point of the new cockpit door closures!

Quoting Flyboy80 (Thread starter):
I sometimes worry about her ability to defend her self,

That's why I think F/A's should take self-defense classes. I know I will BEFORE going for inflight. I want to be sure I can physically restrain any person who attempts to attack myself, other crewmembers or customers.

Quoting Flyboy80 (Thread starter):
was curious to know how the public, and other crew would react in a situation where a pissed of passenger, or even a terrorist oriented attacker tried to attack your crew?

the public would respond but as a F/A, it is your DUTY to protect those customers and look out for their safety. Therefore, you shouldn't have to depend on other customers stepping up and helping you. There must be some sort of level of prepardeness for these types of situations that starts WITH THE CREW and not the customers onboard.

So yea, I wanna see someone try to take over or cause a problem on a flight I'm working...they have something coming I tell ya!  Big grin


User currently offlineMoparman From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 411 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2796 times:

Quoting MiCorazonAzul (Reply 12):
the public would respond but as a F/A, it is your DUTY to protect those customers and look out for their safety. Therefore, you shouldn't have to depend on other customers stepping up and helping you.

You CANNOT expect the average female to be able to win a physical struggle with the average male. It will NOT happen. The female will loose, loose hands down every time. If you think otherwise you or anyone else thinks otherwise, you are watching too many action-movies. It is ESSENTIAL that passengers onboard help out the FA during a scuffle.



"Harming a patient is unethical, but I can inflict as much pain as I like" Dr. Phlox
User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2790 times:

I think since 9/11 the thinking has change with respect to leaving the cockpit. I know most airlines and mine (SQ) have taken the position that the cockpit remains secure no matter what. So, if that's now the SOP, that's what it is. There isn't much room for interpretation.

User currently offlineAirlineAV8tr From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 191 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2776 times:

Quoting MiCorazonAzul (Reply 12):
Quoting Flyboy80 (Thread starter):
I know for me I would be out of my seat in a two seconds.

wrong wrong wrong. You can't leave the flight deck regardless of what is going on...that's the whole point of the new cockpit door closures!

Absolutely right! Why open a FDD, when there is an out of control pax? I can assure you that if a woman or man tries to assault an FA, there will be a lot of back-up from other passengers. I encountered a similar situation- The FA called and said there was a drunk, and out of control passenger. Two men got up, and sat one in front, and one in back of him. Being 30 mins from arrival, we called OPS, and told them of the situation. When we got on the ground, the pax in front of him de-planed, and the police got on and removed him in cuffs. The FA was in her late 50's, and said she never felt afraid having two men surrounding him. Don't worry too much. The situation is rare, and when/if it happens, passengers are acutely aware of the danger that an out of control pax may cause. Besides that, there is rarely a flight that doesn't have a non-rev, or commuting crew on board. Since 9/11, passengers have really become pro-active with security.



If we went into the funeral business, people would stop dying.-Martin S. (PanAm CEO)
User currently offlineAirlineAV8tr From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 191 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2770 times:

Quoting MiCorazonAzul (Reply 12):
Quoting Flyboy80 (Thread starter):
I know for me I would be out of my seat in a two seconds.

wrong wrong wrong. You can't leave the flight deck regardless of what is going on...that's the whole point of the new cockpit door closures!

Absolutely right! Why open a FDD, when there is an out of control pax? I can assure you that if a woman or man tries to assault an FA, there will be a lot of back-up from other passengers. I encountered a similar situation- The FA called and said there was a drunk, and out of control passenger. Two men got up, and sat one in front, and one in back of him. Being 30 mins from arrival, we called OPS, and told them of the situation. When we got on the ground, the pax in front of him de-planed, and the police got on and removed him in cuffs. The FA was in her late 50's, and said she never felt afraid having two men surrounding him. Don't worry too much. The situation is rare, and when/if it happens, passengers are acutely aware of the danger that an out of control pax may cause. Besides that, there is rarely a flight that doesn't have a non-rev, or commuting crew on board. Since 9/11, passengers have really become pro-active with security.



If we went into the funeral business, people would stop dying.-Martin S. (PanAm CEO)
User currently offlineMiCorazonAzul From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 2595 times:

Quoting Moparman (Reply 13):
You CANNOT expect the average female to be able to win a physical struggle with the average male. It will NOT happen. The female will loose, loose hands down every time.

Well, being trained in self-defense would make the "average" female NOT SO average anymore. I have seen women who can take down a man by techniques learned in these courses. And no, I didn't see this in a movie. There are several techniques that even the most petite woman could use on a big man and still take him down. That's the whole point of these classes.....

Quoting Moparman (Reply 13):
It is ESSENTIAL that passengers onboard help out the FA during a scuffle.

I didn't say passengers shouldn't help BUT I think it is ESSENTIAL that F/As are able to subdue someone who attacks them or someone else. I mean, what if the F/A is caught off-guard and passenger response is too late? There is nothing better than being able to look out and defend YOURSELF.


User currently offlineMoparman From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 411 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 2553 times:

Quoting MiCorazonAzul (Reply 17):
Well, being trained in self-defense would make the "average" female NOT SO average anymore. I have seen women who can take down a man by techniques learned in these courses. And no, I didn't see this in a movie. There are several techniques that even the most petite woman could use on a big man and still take him down. That's the whole point of these classes.....

I just have to hang my head - don't know if I should laugh or cry at this one. I said average.. there are many ways that can be used for escape. I did say average, and the average male passenger will bend the average, female flight attendent into a pretzel. Women are taught to stun and flee in self-defense courses - flee as in escape. There is NO escape in an aircraft.

If you think that the average female can fend off the average male in an aggressive situation - you are totally deluded. I was going to try to explain the reaction of various compounds in the body to you that enhanse the ability to tolotate pain and stress, but on second thought... why bother. Pound for pound, a male is going to be 20% stronger then a female. Perhaps you're 5'6" and 110 pounds, then yes you are right: a 5'9" female in good shape at about 140 pounds is going to beat you senseless. The same 5'9" female against a 140pound 5'9" male has very slim chances.



"Harming a patient is unethical, but I can inflict as much pain as I like" Dr. Phlox
User currently offlineMoparman From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 411 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (8 years 8 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2409 times:

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 14):
think since 9/11 the thinking has change with respect to leaving the cockpit. I know most airlines and mine (SQ) have taken the position that the cockpit remains secure no matter what. So, if that's now the SOP, that's what it is. There isn't much room for interpretation.

I think that is an excellent proceedure to follow. Would it be possible to extend the cockpit area somewhat to allow for facilities of some type to ensure that the door remains sealed regardless during the flight? In the interests of saftey, this might be an option to consider.



"Harming a patient is unethical, but I can inflict as much pain as I like" Dr. Phlox
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