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Belgium Sues Swiss Air Over SN Bankrupcy  
User currently offlineMacc From Austria, joined Nov 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 3
Posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3276 times:

According to orf.at the Belgium government will sue Swiss Air and its managers. It states that Swiss Air took out over 700 millions from SN.

For the advocats here, as Swiss Air went bankrupt too and was taken over by LX, how are the prospects of the law suit and which implications are to be expected if the suit gets through?


I exchanged political frustration with sexual boredom. better spoil a girl than the world
16 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineMalpensaSFO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3156 times:

Quoting Macc (Thread starter):
According to orf.at the Belgium government will sue Swiss Air and its managers. It states that Swiss Air took out over 700 millions from SN.

For the advocats here, as Swiss Air went bankrupt too and was taken over by LX, how are the prospects of the law suit and which implications are to be expected if the suit gets through?

SWISSAIR screwed SABENA into bankruptcy, and SWISSAIR got what it deserved not to long after. SABENA, had a purpose, SWISSAIR, well they got it in the end!


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5922 posts, RR: 40
Reply 2, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3127 times:

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 1):
SWISSAIR screwed SABENA into bankruptcy, and SWISSAIR got what it deserved not to long after. SABENA, had a purpose, SWISSAIR, well they got it in the end!

well maybe the Swissair Management wasnt the best to Sabena, but Sabena was never even before Swissair Management took over Sabena such a profitable airline.....



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineSwissgabe From Switzerland, joined Jan 2000, 5266 posts, RR: 33
Reply 3, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3101 times:

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 1):
SWISSAIR screwed SABENA into bankruptcy, and SWISSAIR got what it deserved not to long after. SABENA, had a purpose, SWISSAIR, well they got it in the end!

Looks like you know more about this issue than most of us. Swissair didn't screw Sabena, the former Swissair Management screwed SN and SR. I don't think anyone of the thousands of SN or SR employees who lost their job did deserve anything like this.

Quoting Avianca (Reply 2):
well maybe the Swissair Management wasnt the best to Sabena, but Sabena was never even before Swissair Management took over Sabena such a profitable airline.....

another factor. if not mistaken, out of the 6-7 billion debts by SR, more than 1 billion was because of the SN investment.



Smooth as silk - Royal Orchid Service /// Suid-Afrikaanse Lugdiens - Springbok
User currently offlineBrightCedars From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 1288 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3101 times:

Quoting Avianca (Reply 2):
well maybe the Swissair Management wasnt the best to Sabena, but Sabena was never even before Swissair Management took over Sabena such a profitable airline.....

I'm convinced that even under no so competent Belgian management and still struggling with the unions and its heritage, Sabena would have survived had they bought a dozen Boeing 737NGs to fullfil their need as a start and had they not started a frenetic transatlantic (low yields) expansion drive, moreover powered by expensive all new metal. A time of sacrifices would certainly have come but not a demise of the institution that was Sabena.



I want the European Union flag on airliners.net!
User currently onlineSNfreak From Belgium, joined Feb 2005, 91 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3041 times:

Quoting BrightCedars (Reply 4):
Sabena would have survived had they bought a dozen Boeing 737NGs

indeed
the biggest mistake in my opinion
the belgian governement thought that swissair had a very competent management and believed everything they said (also because they actually didn't care much anymore about sabena)
and because swissair bought a whole bunch of airbus jets, sabena did aswel
although they were compeletly boeing on short-haul aircraft
ow yeah they didn't replace the boeing aircrafts, they just added the busses to the fleet...
if they had taken the offer from boeing, sabena technics would become the head maintenance base for boeing aircraft in europe (that was part of the deal)
this is of course just part of the story...
there's a good book about it in dutch : "de crash van sabena"
it's incredible what happened there...

actually i think it was decided a few months ago to sue them (iirc)
i'm glad they finally do something the "sabeniens" deserve it !



Life is simple : Eat, Sleep and Fly
User currently offlineSWISSER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2879 times:

This can get nasty here I guess!  Wink
Still so much speculations after almost 5 years after the facts!

I was an ex A32S FO of SN who lost it's cockpit job after 7/11/2001, so no speculation on my username or on what "camp" I was, both SR and SN sunk due to Corti's fantasies about his SairGroup imperium, never forget that!
And don't forget AOM employees too, they had the same fate...

As a side note,
SWISS is a completely different company then SR, the assets of LX where bought to create SWISS without any SRgroup ties, whatever the outcome of the case is, SWISS will not suffer anything from it as some of you may expect.


Whatever the speculations are of the 737NG deal, SN would have had the same probs as with the A32S's over time. Altough I have to admit that 34 A32S's where way to much!

737 still meant a completely different TR and tranfer time for already 5 years in service A330/340's crews.
Training and Maintenance was immensely reduced with an all A fleet.
They only needed to take A32S's already in 95, then they might have been able to restructure on a full scale Airbus way in the crisis years, but again the "Sabeniens" thought different to keep filling there pockets and waited for a desicion.

And never forget that SN NEVER realised a respectable profit in it's 78 years of existence. Instead you should be thankfull SR delayed the execution or SN was already gone in 1995 after the short AF party.

And many, not saying all, there where defenitly good guys and gals, but many so called Sabeniens who scavenged SN for so many years can really f*ck off for me!

even today at work I have the "privelege" of working with "real" Ex-sabeniens, and they even think now it still works like that.
Wich off course don't last very long in a real company that needs profit to survive.
I think I don't need to draw a picture for the Belgians here.

Signed,
SWISSER,
not a Sabenien, but I fought for SABENA till the end!


User currently offlineYukonTrader From Switzerland, joined May 2005, 207 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2853 times:

Hi Swisser,

thanks for correcting some of the factual errors of foreposters!

Indeed, Swiss is in no way associated with Swissair. After the failure of Swissair, Crossair took over some assets (routes, traffic rights, part of the fleet) with federal government backing. That included rebranding Crossair to Swiss International Air Lines. An unconfirmed and often repeated urban legend states this happened - inter alia - for the fear that the name Crossair constituted a major business handicap for an airline serving the Middle East.

If you allow me to put your statement of "Mr. Corti's dream of SAirGroup" into perspective? The dreamer was rather Mr. Philippe Bruggisser who lead Swissair into the fatal spin with the "hunter strategy" he applied through the 1990s. When Bruggisser was relieved of his job in January 2001, Mr. Suter (with Crossair) was assigned to head Swissair and get it back on track. He "threw the towel" after a bit more than a month with the prophetic statement "that turning Swissair around was too big a number", and Mr. Corti (with Nestlé) was called in.

From what could be perceived, Mario Corti did not really identify himself with the SAirGroup name, nor with Mr. Bruggisser's dream of making Swissair one of Europe's largest carriers. Actually, after taking the helm, one of Corti's first decisions was to rename the SAirGroup back to Swissair Group, and to investigate the jungle of subsidiaries and financial ties Mr. Bruggisser had arranged.

Shortly before the final collapse, in late August 2001, Corti presented a rescue plan which included merging Swissair and Crossair into one holding, downsizing Swissair, selling off some subsidiaries and assets, slashing cost and wages etc. etc. But it is undisputable that the rescue team of Mr. Corti and his crew failed to turn the ailing airline around quickly enough. A ficitional movie "Grounding" currently showing in Switzerland even goes as far as suggesting that he actually hesitated to breach any of Swissair's financial obligations vis-à-vis its subsidiaries and partners, including Sabena, thus allowing the airline to be too low on cash reserves when 9/11 struck the industry. Swiss courts are currently investigating what payments Swissair made in its final days/weeks, and whether these payments were lawful given their financial state. So, lets the lawyers and judges dig out the facts...

My 2c, while we all wait for the next chapter in the drama.
Cheers, Lukas


User currently offlineSna350 From Belgium, joined Dec 2005, 129 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2822 times:

Quoting SWISSER (Reply 6):

you are absolutely right



Aircraft flown: B733, B734, B736, B737, B738, B744, B752, B763, B772, A319, A320, A321, A343, A346, Do328, CRJ7, E190
User currently offlineSWISSER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2822 times:

Thanks for a better elaboration Lukas!
Corti was the only name I could bring up right away!

BTW, where you also at the ZRH meet?
How was grounding BTW?
When the DVD comes out I need to make a quick ZRH run to get it then!

Anyway, I have said it several times, even from reliable sources when I looked for the info, the Sairgroup never took any money from any asset of SN, I believe the currators of SN already confirmed that in december 2001.
Note that the Sairgroup however did some naughty things, but not with any SN company.

Will see what the investigation will bring, I don't even get for what purpose?
pride for a bancrupt scavenged airline? Money won't be won with it, that's for sure.

However, the Sairgroup said that they where unable to keep there promise to SN for the restructuring capital Muller requested and that was the clear sign the plug was going to pop out very shortly, a quick loan from the government was made for a survival attempt, but at that time SN was already flatlined.


User currently offlineYukonTrader From Switzerland, joined May 2005, 207 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2803 times:

Quoting SWISSER (Reply 9):
BTW, where you also at the ZRH meet?

Yep. The guy who handed out those local magazines with the yellow cover  Wink

Quoting SWISSER (Reply 9):
How was grounding BTW?
When the DVD comes out I need to make a quick ZRH run to get it then!

There's a thread somewhere that goes more in depth - ah, found it: RE: Great New Movie: Grounding (by Lsgg Feb 3 2006 in Civil Aviation)#ID2586949. In a nutshell: A bit too two-dimensional as far as the roles of the good guys vs. the bad guys are concerned (Corti & his team, Swissair employees = good; bankers, old SR management, Crossair management = bad; government unwilling to even understand the situation).

I can get the DVD for you if you need one, once it is out. Will not be before summer (August as tentative date for release).

Time to hit the pillow now, see you!
Lukas


User currently offlineMacc From Austria, joined Nov 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2698 times:

Quoting SWISSER (Reply 6):
As a side note,
SWISS is a completely different company then SR, the assets of LX where bought to create SWISS without any SRgroup ties, whatever the outcome of the case is, SWISS will not suffer anything from it as some of you may expect.

Thats what I had thought. So whats the point of the law suit then? I guess there are no assets left of former SwissAir.



I exchanged political frustration with sexual boredom. better spoil a girl than the world
User currently offlineGlidepath73 From Germany, joined Mar 2005, 1020 posts, RR: 45
Reply 12, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2650 times:

Quoting SWISSER (Reply 9):
BTW, where you also at the ZRH meet?



Quoting YukonTrader (Reply 10):
Yep. The guy who handed out those local magazines with the yellow cover

You both guys have been sitting next to each other and opposite to me at the dinner in the RWY 34 restaurant!!!!!

Funny!!!  Smile

Lukas:

Thanks a lot for this excelent summary of what happened. Really a dark time in Swiss/Belgium aviation history!!!



Regards,
Patrick



Aviation! That rocks...
User currently offlineSWISSER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2530 times:

Quoting Glidepath73 (Reply 12):
You both guys have been sitting next to each other and opposite to me at the dinner in the RWY 34 restaurant!!!!!

Yeah right! How can I forget that!!

Sorry Lukas,
I better remember faces then user names!
How embarrassing...
I even did not put you on my RR list!
We already discussed some of this on the table back then!
Was a great evening! I remember the talks we had about the french language use in ATC we have no clue about!

Quoting Macc (Reply 11):
Thats what I had thought. So whats the point of the law suit then? I guess there are no assets left of former SwissAir.

Still pocket filling I guess, but they will never get any CHF  

Quoting YukonTrader (Reply 10):
I can get the DVD for you if you need one, once it is out. Will not be before summer (August as tentative date for release).

will be great!
Maybe on the ZRH summer meet already... I will defenitly be there too!

[Edited 2006-02-23 23:08:38]

User currently offlineSWISSER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2492 times:

Quoting SNfreak (Reply 5):
ow yeah they didn't replace the boeing aircrafts, they just added the busses to the fleet...

Well not exactly Christophe,
they where replacing the classic 737's,
but indeed the rate was way to low for there phase out.
I never got that in the first place.
I believe we still had 10 classics at the end, and around 20 A32S, 6 A332, 4 A333(3 of them are now still with SN brussels), 2 A342 and 2 343.

SN had 9 732 (phased out in 1999, so don't count them in!)

6 733
6 735
3 734

(I even know all there regs and nicknames, but I will spare you that! or maybe one, OO-SSA had a bad cockpit window slide   )

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Guy Daems - Brussels Aviation Photography


anyway,

so that means only 5 left the fleet to get replaced by 20 A32S.
how logically is that?

I remember some of us (crews) said in october 01 we maybe could drop all 737's now, close down all 737 assets ASAP and cancel the rest of the A32S for now and we could have cut the costs massively, off course the Boeing guys would have had the sack right away and they where the "older experienced guys", instead we all got the sack one month later! It was always like that with SN...

[Edited 2006-02-23 23:46:53]

User currently onlineSNfreak From Belgium, joined Feb 2005, 91 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2484 times:

Thanks for correcting me  Smile
This is a bad subjet for me to discuss on cause I get way to carried away  Wink
(hence my nickname)

Well those pictures of SN are really nice to see.
I miss them so much...



Life is simple : Eat, Sleep and Fly
User currently offlineBennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7475 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (8 years 5 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2382 times:

Is it true that SN NEVER made a profit.

If SN was sound then there would have been other takers.


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