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Israel High Court: Israir Can Fly To NYC  
User currently offlineAmirs From Israel, joined Dec 2003, 1333 posts, RR: 4
Posted (8 years 5 months 2 days ago) and read 4094 times:

This might be the end of a long struggle between El Al and almost the rest of the Israeli Tourisn Industry.
After the Israeli Tourist Minister granted Israir permission to offer scheduled flights to NYC, EL AL decided to appeal the decision to BAGATZ (High Court of Justice).
Bagatz today decided to dismiss the appeals. The decision by the court officially pave the way for other carrier to be given flag carrier status to many destination alond side EL AL.

BITTER SWEET day.

33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineShlomoz From Israel, joined Jun 2000, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 5 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4066 times:

Why bittersweet?

Competition is always a good thing. If Haim Romano (LY CEO) plays his cards right, El Al will do just fine. Israir will compete for the bare-bones budget traveller - but can't compete with El Al's FF program (as much as we all complain, it is pretty darn good) nor with El Al's schedule or amenities (e.g. I think the Wi-Fi is going to be a big hit once its in system wide).

For Israir to genuinely compete on NYC-TLV and give LY a run for its money, they need to seriously upgrade their C class seat (nobody cares about the service or menu as much as they care about a comfortable seat, recline and shluf time), get min 3 a/c of recent vintage and invent an FF program connected to another carrier. These are MUSTS - especially the a/c part. I don't see all of these happening AND I think Haim R. is a good CEO with a few tricks up his sleeve. This will bring out the best in LY and make it a better airline AND will benefit all the pax.


User currently offlineLY7E7 From Israel, joined Jun 2004, 2234 posts, RR: 19
Reply 2, posted (8 years 5 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4031 times:

Quoting Shlomoz (Reply 1):
Why bittersweet?

Sweet for end of LY's monopoly on the route, bitter for it being Israir - a terrible company which I will never fly.



2 things are endless: ignorance and space
User currently offlineAmirs From Israel, joined Dec 2003, 1333 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (8 years 5 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4026 times:

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 2):
Sweet for end of LY's monopoly on the route, bitter for it being Israir - a terrible company which I will never fly.

Exactly.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21500 posts, RR: 56
Reply 4, posted (8 years 5 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3974 times:

Israir should not be flying to anywhere.

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 2):
Sweet for end of LY's monopoly on the route

You could always fly CO.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineTimeForFlight From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 267 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 5 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3933 times:

Quoting Amirs (Reply 3):
Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 2):
Sweet for end of LY's monopoly on the route, bitter for it being Israir - a terrible company which I will never fly.

Exactly.

Wow, you guys just got me really excited for my return flight to the US on Tuesday, ending my 5 months here in Israel.
I was going to ask what I should expect from the airline (although not expecting much since my ticket was $389 one way)...now I'm just considering a bottle of arak and some sleeping pills.

Then again, if people have some insight into the TLV-JFK route I'd love to hear...


User currently offline4xRuv From Israel, joined Dec 2003, 388 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (8 years 5 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3884 times:

With all respect, give Israir a chance! Sabina Biran (Israir CEO) isn't stupid, she knows the business as well as Mr. Romano (I can't recall if he's doctor or professor).

This would mean El Al would actually start to listen to customers complaints and improve their service, because up until now, their major advantage on the TLV-JFK route was the direct flights, not the service. Nobody still knows what fleet is Israir planing to build, what are their prices going to be, and regarding the FF, Israir can build an even better program than El Al's if they really want to.


User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (8 years 5 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3868 times:

Keep in mind that one of El Al's main attractions (if you can call it that) has been its security - no El Al plane has been hijacked since 1968. Many Israelis fly it simply for that reason.

However, with both CO and DL flying to TLV from the United States, there is more competition for Americans (of all persuasions) to choose from. Perhaps El Al will make changes, but remember it has desperately wanted to compete by flying on Saturdays, but hard-liners in the Israeli legislature have prevented that.

I hope it is not hamstrung by having competition introduced by limited by religious restrictions. Every airline needs the opportunity to be competitive and improve.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineShlomoz From Israel, joined Jun 2000, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 5 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3786 times:

LY is a privately owned airline and can fly on Shabbat if it wants to . . . but it won't. That's because they will be throwing away their hegemony on the NYC route (which is their most profitable) wherein on any given flight on that route, roughly 50% of pax, if not more, are Orthodox Jews. Most such people would sooner fly CO or go through Europe than patronize a Jewish owned airline that violates the religious edicts of Shabbat. No politics, no religious coercion - just market dictates. Nobody is going to stop LY from flying on Shabbat. Market share and business sense will.

User currently offlineSemsem From Israel, joined Jul 2005, 1779 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3690 times:

El Al have better pilots who know their way around the JFK tarmacs. That really helps a lot.

User currently offline4xRuv From Israel, joined Dec 2003, 388 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (8 years 5 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3646 times:

Quoting Semsem (Reply 9):
El Al have better pilots who know their way around the JFK tarmacs. That really helps a lot.

Don't be Naive, the fact that you didn't hear about all sorts of accidents or nearly accidents isn't because they didn't happen.

Listens guys, I don't have anything against LY, on the contrary, I really like it. But I think it got used to the fact that it's the only Israeli carrier, and I only hope the competition would lead to a major improvement in their service.


User currently offlineSemsem From Israel, joined Jul 2005, 1779 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3570 times:

Well with Israir not only did a near accident happen but they got caught trying to lie and hide it.

As to the service on LY I find it great in economy; among the best in all aspects from the crew to the food to the entertainment to comfort. I have no clue about C or F as I have never had the privilege and I see no need for it.

[Edited 2006-02-24 06:16:02]

User currently offlineLY7E7 From Israel, joined Jun 2004, 2234 posts, RR: 19
Reply 12, posted (8 years 5 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3534 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
You could always fly CO

Sorry, I meant monopoly in the inner market, not on the route itself.

Quoting 4xRuv (Reply 10):
accidents isn't because they didn't happen.

True. But were those accidents covered up by an airline management , in strict violation of ICAO rules, pilots' reports and common sense of a proper investigation? The proble with Israir is not their pilots (anybody can make a mistake and as you said - shit happened before on all kinds of airlines) but their management - whose attempt to cover up is inexcusable.



2 things are endless: ignorance and space
User currently offlineLY7E7 From Israel, joined Jun 2004, 2234 posts, RR: 19
Reply 13, posted (8 years 5 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3534 times:

Quoting TimeForFlight (Reply 5):
now I'm just considering a bottle of arak and some sleeping pills.

Hehe  Smile make sure it "Brothers Hadad" one  Smile



2 things are endless: ignorance and space
User currently offline4xRuv From Israel, joined Dec 2003, 388 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (8 years 5 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3499 times:

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 12):
True. But were those accidents covered up by an airline management , in strict violation of ICAO rules, pilots' reports and common sense of a proper investigation?

Probably yes. The only thing is they didn't get caught. That's why we didn't hear about those accidents. I'm not paranoid, I'm just saying that statistically this things must have happened before, and the only reason we didn't hear about it is cover up.

Quoting Semsem (Reply 11):
As to the service on LY I find it great in economy; among the best in all aspects from the crew to the food to the entertainment to comfort.

I won't argue with you about their service. I think that service isn't only on flight; it's before and after flight too. In some aspects their service is good, I agree, but in some, it seems like LY is somewhere back in the 90's.


User currently offlineSemsem From Israel, joined Jul 2005, 1779 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (8 years 5 months 19 hours ago) and read 3414 times:

I have never had a bad experience with them and I am pretty fussy. My mother has been flying with them since 1950 and won't fly on any other airline, no matter what the fare. Never had a complaint. I don't understand why some folks complain. Of course here again I am talking about economy. I would not be surprised that they are not so competitive though in C and F.

User currently offlineMalpensaSFO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 5 months 19 hours ago) and read 3403 times:

Israir is going daily on JFK-TLV this summer!.... They are currently 3 x per week!

User currently offlineMalpensaSFO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 5 months 18 hours ago) and read 3383 times:

Quoting Shlomoz (Reply 8):
Most such people would sooner fly CO or go through Europe than patronize a Jewish owned airline that violates the religious edicts of Shabbat

Drama.... Drama.... Drama....

Quoting 4xRuv (Reply 10):
Don't be Naive, the fact that you didn't hear about all sorts of accidents or nearly accidents isn't because they didn't happen.

That is funny EL AL enjoyed an apartment building in Amsterdam!  wink 


User currently offlineLY7E7 From Israel, joined Jun 2004, 2234 posts, RR: 19
Reply 18, posted (8 years 5 months 18 hours ago) and read 3373 times:

Quoting 4xRuv (Reply 14):
I'm just saying that statistically this things must have happened before

Tenerife rings a bell?



2 things are endless: ignorance and space
User currently offline4xRuv From Israel, joined Dec 2003, 388 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (8 years 5 months 17 hours ago) and read 3344 times:

Quoting Semsem (Reply 15):
I have never had a bad experience with them and I am pretty fussy. My mother has been flying with them since 1950 and won't fly on any other airline, no matter what the fare. Never had a complaint. I don't understand why some folks complain. Of course here again I am talking about economy. I would not be surprised that they are not so competitive though in C and F.

That's like saying "I'm going everyday to work on the same route for years and it's pretty good", whilst there is twice as fast road. It's not that their service is bad, but until you won't try other carriers you can't understand the improvement LY needs. And again when I'm talking about service, i'm not just talking about in-flight service.
And regarding C and F, why can't they be competitive? LY is a small company and hence making a competitive service isn't that difficult....


User currently offlineSemsem From Israel, joined Jul 2005, 1779 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (8 years 5 months 10 hours ago) and read 3267 times:

I have flown on other airlines and I find LY among the best. It's my mother who refuses to fly on any other carrier.
As to the awful crash of the cargo plane in Amsterdam it was not El Al's fault but Boeing. The constellation crash in Bulgaria in 1955 when the Connie from Vienna to Tel Aviv was shot down by a Mig was the fault of the pilot who flew into Bulgarian territory in error.


User currently offlineMalpensaSFO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (8 years 5 months 10 hours ago) and read 3253 times:

Quoting Semsem (Reply 20):
I have flown on other airlines and I find LY among the best. It's my mother who refuses to fly on any other carrier.
As to the awful crash of the cargo plane in Amsterdam it was not El Al's fault but Boeing. The constellation crash in Bulgaria in 1955 when the Connie from Vienna to Tel Aviv was shot down by a Mig was the fault of the pilot who flew into Bulgarian territory in error.

Blame Game.... Blame Game.... Sometimes we must face up to it... Even the best of airlines, have had accidents! Such as the case with SQ!  wink 


User currently offline4xRuv From Israel, joined Dec 2003, 388 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (8 years 5 months 9 hours ago) and read 3233 times:

Quoting Semsem (Reply 20):
I have flown on other airlines and I find LY among the best

I can give you tons of examples why LY service isn't one of the best, but this debate is useless and will never end, so let's agree to disagree.
I like LY and flew with them a lot (especially because for Israeli the best FF program is LY, but also because it's an Israeli company and it does feel "home away from home"), but I think they can do so much better, and that's a shame they "neglect" their passengers....


User currently offlineJetset25j From New Zealand, joined Feb 2006, 156 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (8 years 5 months ago) and read 3156 times:

LY leaves a bit (but lets not go overboard) to be desired when compared to the service and fares of other airlines BUT like so many I think I have had LY ingrained into me from day one of the almost annual Israel run!

I've never used Israir on anything outside of a TLV-ETH flight, and have a (mis)conception that for routes further afield it would be just like a charter op or something.

Has Israir got (or ever had) any serious plans about expansion into the BKK route, owing to the number of more back packers etc on these flights?

Adrian.



Air New Zealand-Airline of the world's greatest travellers.
User currently offline4xRuv From Israel, joined Dec 2003, 388 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (8 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3144 times:

Quoting Jetset25j (Reply 23):
like so many I think I have had LY ingrained into me from day one of the almost annual Israel run!

Same Here

Quoting Jetset25j (Reply 23):
Has Israir got (or ever had) any serious plans about expansion into the BKK route, owing to the number of more back packers etc on these flights?

There's definitely plenty of business in this route. LY has sometimes 5 weekly wide-bodies. It depends on the amount of money Israir has to expand their fleet. I guess it's just a matter of time...


25 El Al 001 : Lets not forget few things here: 1. Sabina Biran was the Tower Air manager in Israel, she has a lot of experience on the NYC-TLV route, lot of experie
26 Amirs : I agree with Semsem. Ly today is on track to becoming one of the best airlines around. They are upgrading their Seats in Business all the time. They p
27 LY777 : El Al is a great airline.I only flew in economy and their product is better than AF.
28 Semsem : Malpensa what do you mean by "the blame game?" Read all the reports. The 747 Cargo plane in Amsterdam crashed because of a technical error made by Boe
29 4xRuv : Very good. Too bad that all these things are "planned" whereas with other carriers they exist for a long time now... When you are such a small compan
30 Amirs : Israir just closed a deal on leasing a 763ER in London. They will start to offer 6 x weekly to NYC from June 1. I knew they wouldn't find a 777 or go
31 4xRuv : Why not? BTW, who's doing their maintenance for boeings in TLV (A-D)?
32 Amirs : Because I didnt think they would be agressive enough to find a 772 to lease and leasing an A340 or A330 would be too much of a "hassle." They are cur
33 4xRuv : Well, if LY is doing their main. it makes sense they wouldn't go with airbus
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