Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
The Chinese Jets That Aren't Going To Be Built  
User currently offlineDougloid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 9325 times:

Very interesting article in der Spiegel about product counterfeiting and technology transfer. There's a segment on the Airbus production line, and about the Great Maglev Technology Transfer ripoff.

Well worth pondering for anyone who thinks "Ah but of course! Zees can nevair 'appen! Not to us!"


http://service.spiegel.de/cache/inte...onal/spiegel/0,1518,402464,00.html

32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9233 times:

Illegal copies, criminals, self designed cars, expensive fashion brands, corrupt business men, hostile take overs, great art, millions of tourists that see us as slow & old fashioned. Everything will flood us from Asia in the next decenium. We just have to get used to it.

User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 2, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9156 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 1):
Illegal copies, criminals, self designed cars, expensive fashion brands, corrupt business men, hostile take overs, great art, millions of tourists that see us as slow & old fashioned. Everything will flood us from Asia in the next decenium. We just have to get used to it.

So you are advocating nothing in response? This article should raise concerns throughout all of Europe with respect to Airbus' plans to set up the A320 production line, technology transfer, and collaborate on design for aircraft (such as announced today with Korea on jet panels). There was a note in the article that the U.S. government forbids Boeing to set up production facilities there (as opposed to Japan!). What amazes me is that so far, Airbus' plans for China haven't received serious scruntiny in the European press. Ultimately, that's you all's problem, not ours, but I would have thought that this would generate more interest.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineFlyingHippo From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 671 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9156 times:

You mean you don't have 95% of the computer parts you're using to surf on the web made in Taiwan, Korea, Thailand, Indonesia and China???

User currently offlineLehpron From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 7028 posts, RR: 21
Reply 4, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9144 times:

If the point is capitalism, why limit it?


The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 5, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9144 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 2):
What amazes me is that so far, Airbus' plans for China haven't received serious scruntiny in the European press.

This was the point I was trying to make. Should have highlighted it.  Wink



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineMarshalN From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2005, 1521 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9119 times:

I don't understand the problem. Americans were the ones who first setup a production line for a commercial jet in China (MDs, anyone?). They haven't made a copycat MD-80 yet, have they? So why the fear, all of a sudden, that A320s will be copied?

Like FlyingHippo said, lots of things are made in China these days, and they aren't just limited to cheap t-shirts.


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 7, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9084 times:

Quoting MarshalN (Reply 6):
I don't understand the problem.

May not be a problem MarshalN...just saying I thought there would have been more of a public debate in Western Europe. There may be, but I haven't seen it yet. Isn't outsourcing a hot topic in Germany and France? Also, this article is alleging piracy and theft. Isn't that a valid concern?

[Edited 2006-02-24 00:29:11]


"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12027 posts, RR: 47
Reply 8, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9043 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Why exactly would it concern us if China, as a result of having an A320 FAL, is able to make their own 150-seat airliner of mid-1980s vintage? Nobody outside of China, and probably few airlines inside China, if given a free choice, would be interested in purchasing such a plane.

I really don't see what the fuss is all about. China built numerous Russian types under licence, had an MD-80 production line and is currently building ERJs. Are they an aviation powerhouse as a result? Thought not.



Hey AA, the 1960s called. They want their planes back!
User currently offlineDEVILFISH From Philippines, joined Jan 2006, 4690 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 8963 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 1):
Illegal copies, criminals, self designed cars, expensive fashion brands, corrupt business men, hostile take overs, great art, millions of tourists that see us as slow & old fashioned.

This is a very scathing remark about and directed at a region of decent, hardworking, morally upright people. It is not as if they have a monopoly on evildoers. If memory serves, this litany of unsavory things made its way West to East first.



"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
User currently offlineWhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 8935 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 2):
So you are advocating nothing in response? This article should raise concerns throughout all of Europe with respect to Airbus' plans to set up the A320 production line, technology transfer, and collaborate on design for aircraft (such as announced today with Korea on jet panels).

So are you in favour of Boeing cancelling all outstanding aircraft orders for China?

Selling them an aircraft is technology transfer after all. If they have it, they can copy it.


User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 21
Reply 11, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 8877 times:

Piracy and technology rip off is one of China's biggest problems. It isn't just airplanes and associated technology, but brand name products, movies, and even colas.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 2):
such as announced today with Korea on jet panels). There was a note in the article that the U.S. government forbids Boeing to set up production facilities there (as opposed to Japan!).

There is a difference between setting up a factory in China versus Japan or Korea. Japan and Korea are strategic partners that already use U.S. made military equipment (let alone in Japan they are for self defense only). China is not a strategic partner with anyone but themselves. Japan is not going to take the technology and turn around and make their own product. Japan will develop technology that they can hold the patent for and then offer to make products for other companies so they can keep rights to that patent and improve the product and make new patents. Korea does the same thing. The goal is not to steal technology but to produce something that meets a demand and then exploit it with a postive result.

China...on the other hand has a strong government but can't control the individual moves of its people. That is why copies of Louis Villton and movies are pirated and sold all over the place. The goal is to make money and do it by any means possible. The WTF keeps a close eye on China. If they were to take technology from Airbus or any company and use it without permission to develop their own product then it would violate their membership in the WTF. Not good for China.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineSupa7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 8783 times:

China has the engineering and manufacturing firepower to build large aircraft. To deny this is silly. As for designs, those are easily found in Toulouse and Seattle if you know the right people.

China's central economic planners would like to have aircraft manufacturing be a sparkly tiara on their economic evening gown. It would be an expensive trinket, but if it becomes a priority, China has the money (and talent) to make this happen.


User currently offlineAeroWeanie From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 1606 posts, RR: 52
Reply 13, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 8750 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

The Chinese tried copying the 707, soon after buying some in 1972. The resulting aircraft, the Shanghai Y-10 demonstrated that its hard to copy an airliner. This was during The Cultural Revolution, when education was scorned. Now that the Chinese have relearned the value of education - watch out!




User currently offlineDavid31998 From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 79 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 8673 times:

China is a country ruled by men, not laws. For anyone paying attention, China has consistently not lived up to its international agreements - and never intended to. I say this as someone who speaks Chinese and has lived, worked, and traveled extensively in China for the past 10 years.

If the Chinese can steal technology or anything else, they will do it. If you don't believe me, go to any electronics market in any big Chinese city. Software, music cds, and movies are all illegal - not some, all! I do not know where to go to find the legal stuff. And why do you think Microsoft has never made a profit there even though most computers there use MS Windows operating systems?

Any western company intending to work closely with a Chinese company are at risk, and the Chinese courts will not help, no matter what the law says. Remember, the Chinese Constitution guarantees free speak and the right to descent. But words there mean nothing when relating to either politics or business.

David


User currently offlineHmmmm... From Canada, joined May 1999, 2104 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 8574 times:

It's not that the Chinese will copy the A320 and make their own and sell it. It is that it gives them a handup with the technology that they will then use against the west militarily. The Chinese are like the Borg. Their aim is to consolidate as much knowledge, land, and material resources as possible in their quest to amalgamate the world into their empire. Ultimately, they aim to displace America as the world's superpower. And at the same time, they are building up their military like the Germans did in the '30s.

Why?

There is only one answer to that.



An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
User currently offlineKanebear From United States of America, joined May 2002, 953 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 8506 times:

Quoting David31998 (Reply 15):
China is a country ruled by men, not laws. For anyone paying attention, China has consistently not lived up to its international agreements - and never intended to. I say this as someone who speaks Chinese and has lived, worked, and traveled extensively in China for the past 10 years.

If the Chinese can steal technology or anything else, they will do it. If you don't believe me, go to any electronics market in any big Chinese city. Software, music cds, and movies are all illegal - not some, all! I do not know where to go to find the legal stuff. And why do you think Microsoft has never made a profit there even though most computers there use MS Windows operating systems?

You are exactly correct. It is absolutely FASCINATING going shopping in Beijing. I recall seeing DVD players, surround sound receivers, software, etc etc. Not one bit of it legitimate. The Chinese are also quite logo-mad. It was amusing to see a Dolby Digital logo adorning a common portable CD player, along with the DTS logo, Dolby Pro Logic logo, HDCD logo, CEDAR logo etc etc etc. You CAN find legit products, but they're quite expensive. You can also find what look like legit products, but aren't. China is where I found out about the practice of production overruns. Someone licenses a factory in China to make 100,000 products, sends the tooling and software over, etc. So, the factory runs off 150,000. The overrun is for sale in the local market and sold at a good margin for the factory... with NONE of the licensing revenue going back to the corporation who invested in the R&D to design, test and develop the product.

The same thing will happen with the Airbus factory. No, not production overruns but the knowledge and technology will be stolen to advance China. The people running China are very smart. They will pay lip service to Western concerns and desire, and then do a bare minimum to satisfy the west. They will then use the knowledge they've gained to further their own goals. Two very interesting recent developments. China is developing it's own High Definition DVD standard, and is developing it's own 3G wireless standard. Wonder where they got the know-how to do that???? It certainly wasn't internal. The Chinese are amazingly industrious but due to the political situation there they have a dearth of innovators. When they do catch up and begin innovating internally, they really will take off.


User currently offlineMax999 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 993 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 8472 times:

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 4):
If the point is capitalism, why limit it?

For some who proclaim to be advocates of free markets, their support for capitalism only goes so far as long as it promotes their provincial and nationalist interests.

----------------------------

Quoting Kanebear (Reply 17):
The same thing will happen with the Airbus factory. No, not production overruns but the knowledge and technology will be stolen to advance China. The people running China are very smart. They will pay lip service to Western concerns and desire, and then do a bare minimum to satisfy the west. They will then use the knowledge they've gained to further their own goals. Two very interesting recent developments. China is developing it's own High Definition DVD standard, and is developing it's own 3G wireless standard. Wonder where they got the know-how to do that???? It certainly wasn't internal. The Chinese are amazingly industrious but due to the political situation there they have a dearth of innovators. When they do catch up and begin innovating internally, they really will take off.

This is true and this does happen in China. However, one must not be so blinded by this and turn towards excessive protectionism.

As for letting China build the A320, it is mentioned on this thread that this is 20 year old technology. If China gets around to pirating the A320 and build their own copycat, it would be a plane with 30 year old technology. That Chinese plane will not sell very well against the A320 replacement Airbus will be building.

The technologies you mentioned (High Definition DVDs and 3G wireless) are relatively new and cutting-edge. It would be more valuable to copy a new technology, sell it as your own, than to copy something that's older and mature.



All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
User currently offlineB2443 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 697 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 8393 times:

It is just disappointing to see another otherwise Chinese Aviation thread become a political debate.

A more disappointing aspect of the so called "technology transfer" is that the west does not seem to be able to stop. Like all your complaints would matter at all. After 25+ years of doing business with China, you thought they would learn something, right? But the most disappoiting thing is they do not or they can't. Because the the bottom line is make money and that is the root cause of everything with capitalism. They invited China in their game.


User currently offlineGlideslope From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 8042 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 2):
So you are advocating nothing in response? This article should raise concerns throughout all of Europe with respect to Airbus' plans to set up the A320 production line, technology transfer, and collaborate on design for aircraft (such as announced today with Korea on jet panels). There was a note in the article that the U.S. government forbids Boeing to set up production facilities there (as opposed to Japan!). What amazes me is that so far, Airbus' plans for China haven't received serious scruntiny in the European press. Ultimately, that's you all's problem, not ours, but I would have thought that this would generate more interest.

Could not agree more. This is just the start. Tighten your seatbelts.



To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
User currently offlineNumberTwelve From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 1431 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 8022 times:

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 2):
Ultimately, that's you all's problem, not ours,

"Yours", "ours", no kindergarden here  Wink
In fact it's a problem of the competitors (if Chinese will build a Chinese Copy of the A's) - airlines will decide against A and B and buy at C.



signature censored by admin - so check my profile
User currently offlineStarrion From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1122 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 7321 times:

The fact that airbus is willing to let the chinese "have" the A320 knowing what the Chinese are likely going to do with it, is proof positive that Airbus is already working on something much better.

Hopefully Boeing is too.


This is one of the reasons I'm leery of outsourcing high technology to China. It is an old saying that "The capitalists will be hung with the same rope they sold to us." We need to be aware that the Chinese leadership does not have visions of peaceful co-existance as part of their 50 and 100 year plans.....



Knowledge Replaces Fear
User currently offlineFlyMeToTheMoon From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 242 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6381 times:

Why is everyone surprised? Theft has been going on in China for the last 50 years and we all are responsible for propping up a criminal communist regime in the name of lower prices. For all I care neither Airbus nor Boeing should set-up manufacturing in China unless of course they wish to get their intellectual property stolen, turned around and rebuilt at a fraction of a cost by modern day slaves.


Fly me to the moon... but not through LHR!
User currently offlineTockeyhockey From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 947 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6311 times:

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 4):
If the point is capitalism, why limit it?

why limit capitalism? are you kidding me? the reasons are too many to quote here.

but the main point is that if you have a wild wild west mentality with all things related to industrial and technological competition, the rule of law will go away and the most corrupt countries that exploit their workers the most and skirt environmental laws most frequently will be the winners.

wealth will concentrate in the hands of an elite few and 99.9% of the people of the world will suffer.

unbridaled, ungoverned capitalism is a horrible, scary thing.


User currently offlineFlyingHippo From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 671 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6217 times:

Quoting Centrair (Reply 11):
Japan is not going to take the technology and turn around and make their own product.

Right... and Sony invented television and DVD players, Honda invented automobiles and motorcycles...

For every car Toyota makes, I wonder how much loyalty they pay to the Ford family, and I wonder how much the Chinese in get for every sheet of paper that is produced in the world...

Technology transfer will happen, no matter how you try to stop it. If China really wanted to, they would have produced their own 747s already... They've only had it for a few decades...

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 15):
It's not that the Chinese will copy the A320 and make their own and sell it. It is that it gives them a handup with the technology that they will then use against the west militarily. The Chinese are like the Borg. Their aim is to consolidate as much knowledge, land, and material resources as possible in their quest to amalgamate the world into their empire. Ultimately, they aim to displace America as the world's superpower. And at the same time, they are building up their military like the Germans did in the '30s.

Hmmm... Okay, name one time period in modern history (1900 - present day) where China invaded another country. Tibet is not a country, it has been under Chinese rule for over 1000 years, Taiwan was under the Chinese rule up until 1949 and is trying to be independent, and the UN (and pretty much everyone else) states that Taiwan is a part of China (Not that I agree with it...)


Please study some history before making such statements.

[Edited 2006-02-24 18:05:30]

25 David31998 : I am sorry to get off the topic of aviation. False statments, however, need to be corrected to maintain this as a useful forum. As someone well traval
26 FlyingHippo : Vietnam was part of China (or a Chinese colony) until the French took it over. There are still some (thankfully very small part) of radical Chinese h
27 Post contains images Lumberton : Boy, is this thread in danger of being hijacked....
28 A319XFW : About the Maglev - apparently the Transrapid line has now been contracted to extend to the next city along from Shanghai.
29 PillowTester : Can we have a photograph slightly larger than that please? That is really interesting.
30 PillowTester : There is a difference between technology transfer and product rip-off. A lot of products in china are direct rip offs, using logos stolen and trying
31 Superhub : Building up their military like the Germans? That is not true. China's defence spending, according to the US Department of Defense (NOT the Chinese G
32 DEVILFISH : It is inevitable that it would turn into a political debate, or something uglier, as the very first responder started with an indirect blanket condem
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Was The MD12 Going To Be Built In Long Beach posted Mon Apr 24 2006 02:56:59 by 747400sp
The Order Of TAP Is Going To Be 11 X A330-300! posted Mon Sep 19 2005 15:39:27 by CV990
The Truth Of JL123, Ever Going To Be Revealed? posted Fri Aug 12 2005 16:36:03 by Ktachiya
Is The A330 Going To Be Discontinued? posted Sun Oct 23 2005 14:31:20 by Gilesdavies
When Are The CM's 738's Going To Be Delivered? posted Sun Sep 21 2003 05:29:22 by B752fanatic
Is YVR-DEL Going To Be The Longest Route? posted Mon Sep 24 2001 05:12:45 by Crank
Anyone Going To Be At The Piarco Opening Tomorrow? posted Thu May 24 2001 23:09:29 by BWIA330
When Is Spirit Airlines Going To Be In The Air? posted Tue Jan 9 2001 03:21:36 by Avman
Virgin Is Going To Be The Next Laker/Pan Am posted Mon Sep 11 2000 18:00:27 by Iainhol
Is Going To Be A Real Beauty The ElAL 777! posted Fri Sep 8 2000 12:44:11 by Montenegro