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TWA In PIT  
User currently offlineIADCRJ From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 332 posts, RR: 1
Posted (8 years 10 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4206 times:

Upon viewing many old photos and terminal maps of the old PIT terminal from the 1970's, I came to a conclusion that TWA had a sdecent size operation out of PIT back then. It appeared that they pretty much had the whole entire West Dock there, at the old terminal to themselves back in 1975 (which was built back in the early 70s). See map on this link: http://oldterminals.topcities.com/pittsburgh%20map%201975.jpg

What I am very courious about in terms of TWA's operations out PIT back in the 70's, is the particular routes that they served out of there. Also, was PIT considered a "Focus City" by TWA back then?

52 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4528 posts, RR: 34
Reply 1, posted (8 years 10 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4156 times:

I don't have a TWA timetable for that time, but here's what United's June 13, 1975 timetable reports for them:

PIT 35 dailies

CAK 1x
ABE 1x
ATL 4x
CRW 2x
ORD 6x incl 1 747 and 1 DC-10; Both jumbos continued to LAX
CLE 5x
DTW 1x (DC-10 6 days, narrowbody 1 day) continued to SFO
TYS 1x
FLL 1x
MIA 2x (says 3x MIA with 2 to "M" and 1 to "F," I presume that means FLL)
MKE 1x
MSY 2x
ORF 1x
ROC 1x
TPA 2x
DCA 1x
YNG 3x



Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
User currently offlineIADCRJ From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 332 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (8 years 10 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 4095 times:

Thanks alot DCA-ROCguy. Do you know of any websites that have any downloadable airline timetables, where I can get other info regarding the airline operations in PIT back then?

User currently offlineIADCRJ From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 332 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (8 years 10 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 4079 times:

Quoting DCA-ROCguy (Reply 1):
ORD 6x incl 1 747 and 1 DC-10; Both jumbos continued to LAX

It is simply unbelievable that there was at one time widebody service between PIT and ORD, compared to today where the largest aircraft that operates on that route is a 737-400 for USAirways. The flights between PIT and ORD today are often full despite the high frequency on this route between US, AA, and UA (a total of 15 flights a day on this route), and I imagine that a widebody could perhaps be practical even today on this route. Who knows?

Were these wide body flights to ORD operated on sort of a code share deal for TWA on behalf of United?


User currently offlineNorjet From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 72 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 10 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4062 times:

I have a TW timetable from August 1, 1980 handy. (By this time they weren't listing A/C types, just boldfacing the jumbos.) Here's what it says:

PIT to:
BWI - 1 n/s daily
BOS - 3 n/s daily
BUF - 1 n/s
ORD - 2 n/s
CVG - 3 n/s
CMH - 3 n/s
DAY - 3 n/s (CVG, CMH, DAY departures all 10:00, 15:00, 19:00 banks)
DEN - 1 n/s
FLL - 1 n/s
RSW - 1 one stop via FLL
MDT - 1 n/s
BDL - 1 n/s
IND - 3 n/s (same pattern as CVG, CMH, DAY)
MCI - 5 one-stops
LAS - 1 n/s and 1 two-stop
LAX - 2 n/s and 1 one-stop. One n/s and the one-stop are L10.
SDF - 1 n/s
LGA - 4 n/s
EWR - 3 n/s
JFK - 1 n/s
OKC - 1 two-stop
MCO - 1 n/s, 1 one-stop
PHL - 3 n/s
PHX - 1 one-stop, 1 two-stop
PVD - 1 n/s
STL - 2 n/s (one an L10 continuing to LAX), 3 one-stops
SFO - 1 n/s, 1 two-stop
SYR - 1 n/s
ICT - 1 two-stop

The operation was mostly an Ohio Valley - Northeast 3-bank hub. Seems to me the West Coast saw more nonstops in the 1970s, and much more L10 service , but to find out would involve some seriously heavy lifting (TW is in the bottom crate, and it's 10 pm...)



Publishing travel advice for adopting families - to justify being an airline geek
User currently offlineIADCRJ From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 332 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (8 years 10 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4035 times:

Thanks alot Norjet. It seems likely to me that USAir perhaps purchased alot of these route slots from TWA to significantly expand their PIT market back in the early 80's.

User currently offlineDCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4528 posts, RR: 34
Reply 6, posted (8 years 10 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4022 times:

Did TWA serve BUF? I knew they served SYR during the '80s but I don't remember them ever being at BUF. ROC tried to get TWA in 1980, according to a Rochester Times-Union article I have from that time, but we never succeeded.

If TWA was at BUF, it's news to me. What did they list for BUF? Was the BUF flight perhaps a codeshare or something with US?

I don't know of any sites with downloadable timetables. There's a guy who's posting a whole 1983 OAG, and there's a site that shows timetable covers and route maps. Unfortunately I don't have links handy for either.

Jim



Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
User currently offlineNorjet From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 72 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 10 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3986 times:

The TW PIT-BUF service appears to be extremely short-lived, I don't see anything in 1981 at all. TW was experimenting with a number of tag-on legs in 79-80 such as RFD-ORD, LAX-ONT, LAX-SAN, PSP-PHX, SJC-SFO, PIT-PVD, FLL-RSW. Because there's nothing more economical than flying 40 miles in a 727...

The Buffalo schedule was:

TW 181 BUF 08:20-PIT 09:11-FLL 12:22-RSW 13:32

TW 214 RSW 16:00-FLL 16:38-PIT 19:46-BUF 21:31

Wow, what awful utilization. Hour layovers in PIT, and 2:30 in Ft. Myers! I guess they could swap a/c at PIT... Those were also the only flights into RSW in this schedule. PVD was likewise a single trick, RON just like Buffalo - same connecting bank at PIT in fact.

--Scott



Publishing travel advice for adopting families - to justify being an airline geek
User currently offlineChrisjake From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 879 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (8 years 10 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3977 times:

PIT - TWA November 1975 OAG

BOS 3x
ORD 7x 1 707, 1 L-1011
CVG 2x
CMH 1x
DEN 1x
IND 3x
LAX 1x 1 707
LGA 7x
EWR 5x 1 707
JFK 1x
PHL 6x 2 707
STL 3x 2 707



chris



Well nothing's dead down here, just a little tired
User currently offlineBigGSFO From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2951 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (8 years 10 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3974 times:

TWA also operated PIT-LGW in the early 80's IIRC. They transferred that authority to STL-LGW when STL was built up into their hub.

User currently offlineCrownvic From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1957 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (8 years 10 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3932 times:

If I recall correctly, they actually operated PIT-PHL-LHR with 707's back in the early '70's. When the PHL-LHR operation switched to L10's, I think the thru flight ended.

User currently offlineTheFlyGuy2 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3789 times:

I have a TWA Timetable from January 15, 1985. Heres what it has listed out of PIT...

Non-Stops:

JFK 1X
STL 4X

One-Stops:

LAS 2X
MXP 1X
OMA 1X
SAN 1X


Andy


User currently offlineKkfla737 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3782 times:

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 9):
TWA also operated PIT-LGW in the early 80's IIRC. They transferred that authority to STL-LGW when STL was built up into their hub.

Very true. For a while TWA had several mini hub type operations across the middle of the country. (PIT, ORD, STL, MCI, DEN.....you could even count CMH to a certain extent which had a number of point to point flights) STL eventually became the sole mid continent hub sometime around 1984 IRC.


User currently offlineTheFlyGuy2 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3772 times:

Yeah, I know this is slightly off topic, but TWA also had a small operation out of ORD in 1985.

Non-Stops:

BOS 1X
CMH 3X
MCI 4X
LHR 1X
EWR 3X
LGA 2X
JFK 1X
PHL 1X
STL 8X

Total- 24 Daily

One-Stops:

AMS 1X
BOS 1X
LAX 1X
MIA 1X
LGA 1X
PSP 1X
SAN 1X
ICT 1X

Total- 8 Daily

Two-Stops:

BRU 1X
LAX 2X
ONT 1X

Total- 4 Daily

Andy


User currently offlineRampRat74 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1547 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3766 times:

I read somewhere on here that the US Airways hangar in PIT was originally TWA's.

User currently offlineFlyPIJets From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 926 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3760 times:

From a TWA 1976 schedule:

From PIT:

Boston (3x)
Chicago (all ORD) (6x) (1 was L-1011)
Denver (1x)
Indianapolis (3x)
Los Angeles (1x) (L-1011)
New York
-LGA (7x)
-EWR (5X)
-JFK (2x)
Philadelphia (7x)
St. Louis (3x)
San Francisco (1x)

I would say the PIT was a focus city for TWA back in the day.


[edit] those are all non-stops, at least 6 days a week.

[Edited 2006-02-24 19:07:50]


DC-8, DC-9, DC-10, F28, 717, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, IL-62, L-1011, MD-82/83, YS-11, DHC-8, PA-28-161, ERJ 135/145, E-1
User currently offlineTan Flyr From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1920 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3733 times:

Quoting TheFlyGuy2 (Reply 13):
Yeah, I know this is slightly off topic, but TWA also had a small operation out of ORD in 1985.

IIRC the operation out of ORD was considerable thru the 70's with TW/AA/UA competing heavily between ORD/LGA with most offering hourly (or close to it) from ORD. Seems that one of them had them on the half hour and the other 2 on the hour or vice-versa. I remember headed to LGA in 78 or 70 for a Rangers game..my flight was delayed due to weather in DEN, agent put me on the next available and as we pushed back the flight from DEN pulled into the gate adjacent. Oh, made it in time for the drop of the puck!

But as I recall TW ran 4 or 5 banks from ORD in those days.


User currently offlineVegasplanes From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 778 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3727 times:

Quoting Tan Flyr (Reply 16):
TW/AA/UA competing heavily between ORD/LGA with most offering hourly (or close to it) from ORD.

Yes, TW operated the "Blue Chip" service from LGA-ORD, primarily with 727's, offered hourly service M-F. Amazing to see that by 1985 LGA-ORD was down to twice daily on TW. AA and UA cleaned up on that one.


User currently offlineTheFlyGuy2 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3713 times:

I am going to start a similar topic "DL in ORD." This one really got me thinking.
Check it out. I just don't want to take the focuss off "IADCRJ's" topic.

Andy


User currently onlineFlaps From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 1301 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3625 times:

TW was well on its way to making PIT into a major hub when the air traffic controllers struck and were subsequently fired. Due to the ensuing slot restrictions they were unable to operate as planned and eventually consolidated their midwest operations at STL. If not for the controllers strike PIT could well have evolved into a major two carrier hub such as ATL, DEN, ORD and DFW were at that time.

User currently offlineIADCRJ From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 332 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3586 times:

Quoting TheFlyGuy2 (Reply 13):
Yeah, I know this is slightly off topic, but TWA also had a small operation out of ORD in 1985.

Thanks for mentioning a little about TWA's operation out of ORD. I had intenitions of posting a new thread regarding their operations out of there, but your mentioning of it definately answered some of my questions regarding the size of their operations out of there.

Quoting TheFlyGuy2 (Reply 18):
I am going to start a similar topic "DL in ORD." This one really got me thinking.
Check it out. I just don't want to take the focuss off "IADCRJ's" topic.

There was a post regarding Delta's operations out ORD fairly recently. Go to the Message board search engine to pull up this past thread regarding this topic. This thread was fairly similar to mine right here.


User currently offlineIADCRJ From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 332 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3565 times:

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 9):
TWA also operated PIT-LGW in the early 80's IIRC. They transferred that authority to STL-LGW when STL was built up into their hub.

Did British Airways immediately replace this route. I do recall that they began to operate a one stop route between PIT and LHR back in the early 80's and operated it until about five or six years ago.

Quoting Flaps (Reply 19):
TW was well on its way to making PIT into a major hub when the air traffic controllers struck and were subsequently fired. Due to the ensuing slot restrictions they were unable to operate as planned and eventually consolidated their midwest operations at STL. If not for the controllers strike PIT could well have evolved into a major two carrier hub such as ATL, DEN, ORD and DFW were at that time.



Quoting TheFlyGuy2 (Reply 11):
have a TWA Timetable from January 15, 1985. Heres what it has listed out of PIT...

Non-Stops:

JFK 1X
STL 4X

It definately sounds like it must have been sometime back in the early 80's when TWA dismantled this PIT "Focus City" of theirs.


User currently offlineTheFlyGuy2 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3521 times:

Another side note case anyone was wondering.

Here is a Northwest Orient ORD Listing from a 1985 Timetable...

Non-Stop:

BIL (1X)
BOS (2X)
CLE (3X)
DTW (3X) THIS WAS BEFORE THERE DTW HUB DAYS.
MSN (2X)
MIA (2X)
MSP (13X)
RSC (1X)
SEA (1X)
TPA (2X)
DCA (1X)

SEOUL, KOREA (1x)
TOKYO, JAPAN (1X)

TOTAL- 33 DAILY FLIGHTS


ANDY


User currently offlineTheFlyGuy2 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3509 times:

Here is yet another airline in case you are all wondering (Eastern).

January, 1985 Timetable (ORD Non-Stops)

Sorry, but this is off of a note I wrote, I don't have the frequencies in front of me.

ATL
BIR
CHL
RSW
MIA
LGA
SJU


User currently onlineFlaps From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 1301 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (8 years 10 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3454 times:

TW was well on its way to making PIT into a major hub when the air traffic controllers struck and were subsequently fired. Due to the ensuing slot restrictions they were unable to operate as planned and eventually consolidated their midwest operations at STL. If not for the controllers strike PIT could well have evolved into a major two carrier hub such as ATL, DEN, ORD and DFW were at that time.

25 Kkfla737 : you must mean CLT! EA's ORD operation was very seasonal with much more winter North-South traffic. TWA's hub at ORD was primarily east-west and if yo
26 TheFlyGuy2 : So when did the F/A and pilot base at ORD close for DL, EA, and NW? It must have been shortly after the airlines cut flights?
27 Steeler83 : Quoting FLAPS (reply 24): "If not for the controllers strike PIT could well have evolved into a major two carrier hub such as ATL, DEN, ORD and DFW we
28 Capital146 : For what it's worth, I have a BAA timetable from 1987 which shows TW operating flight 756 on a STL-PIT-PHL-LHR service during the summer using a 762.
29 IADCRJ : I definately remebered that route. My very first flight on a widebody was on a BA 747-200 on this route back in 1986. The routing PIT-PHL-LHR often s
30 Steeler83 : I wonder if BA ever had a non-stop route. I am sure that this service was eventually taken over by BA after US practically took over the entire airpo
31 Worldflyer : TWA has a deep history with Pittsburgh. In addition to the frequent flight operations, there was a Reservations office for many years (Chatham Center
32 Stirling : What I find immensely interesting is that Pittsburgh had but only 7 airlines in 1975: Allegheny American Eastern NordAir Northwest TWA United
33 Steeler83 : Are you still referring to the old terminal? If so, I think you meant to say March of 1988 and not '98; The old Greater PIT terminal was abandoned on
34 Fanofjets : TWA flew quite a few different types of aircraft into PIT; the A.net database shows the following: Martin 404, 1958 Lockheed L-749 Constellation, 1967
35 PanAm330 : Compared to SYR, which had DC10s to ORD on both UA and AA, and the largest aircraft operated today are RJs (UA CR7s, and AE 145s).
36 Post contains links Jc2354 : This site has lots of information from OAG's. Most are from the 80's, but there are quite a few from the 70's. Well worth checking out. http://www.geo
37 IADCRJ : You are correct. They did occupy gates on "C" concourse. Infact TWA's two gates there were C56 and C58 where USA 3000 currently operates out of (C58)
38 Steeler83 : Wait a minute... PIT had an asian market served my NW??? I did not know that!!!
39 Stirling : He was talking about ORD. Not PIT.
40 Steeler83 : Yeah... I must have read through that post a little fast. I must have thought he was talking about PIT as this thread has to do with PIT... My bad
41 NWADC9 : The only thing from Asia we got that I'm aware of is a JAL 747-400, but that was chartered by the Steelers. No scheduled service. But, as you remember
42 IADCRJ : PIT never had and probably never will (atleast any time in the foreseable future) have any Asian markets. PIT will be lucky if any European markets re
43 Steeler83 : That is just sad... They might as well remove the customs and immigration facilities there.
44 Post contains links and images Tango-Bravo : From my January, 1979 OAG, it looks like PIT would have been a "spotters paradise" for logging TWA DC-9-15 and 707 movements. At the time, the two soo
45 IADCRJ : TWA's DC9-15 type "soon to be retired"? TWA operated those planes until the late 1990's. Infact, I definately recall flying aboard one of them back i
46 IADCRJ : The customs and immigration facilities are still used for US seasonal PIT-CUN, US weekend PIT-MBJ, and the occasional international charters. I do ha
47 Steeler83 : True, although I did say this in another post though... PIT is slowly starting to gain a bit of a more competitive business market, especially in the
48 Post contains images Isitsafenow : No, the original model tens TWA had were delivered in 66 and 67, N1051T thru N1070T. The one you saw was not in that group. Most of TWA original mode
49 IADCRJ : Thanks. These DC9-15's that were in service from the mid 80's to late 90's must have come over from Ozark when they were purchased by TWA back in the
50 Tango-Bravo : JP Airline-fleets 1978 edition lists 14 DC-9-15s in service with TWA, registered N1056T through N1070T, except N1063T which crashed at Urbana, OH, in
51 Post contains images IADCRJ : Thanks for the specific clarification.
52 Post contains images Tango-Bravo : You're welcome. I could have/should have been more specific in reply #44 when using the term "soon to be retired" in referring to TWA's original DC-9
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