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NW Plans To Replace DC-9s With RJs  
User currently offlineUnited737522 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 12283 times:

http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/busin...ml&storylist=mibusiness&thispage=1

Quote:
Northwest intends to replace its DC-9s, which are more than 30 years old, with Bombardier or Embraer regional jets.

Sorry if this is old news, but a carrier with a fleet of CRJs really doesn't go well with me. You can't really tell me anyone enjoys them no matter how cheap their ticket is. The only other airline to operate a major fleet of RJs was Indy Air, and we all know how that turned out.

70 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2739 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 12275 times:

I hope they work it out with the pilots as the article suggest, and that they are able to fly for the mainline carrier.


Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineEjmmsu From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1692 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 12275 times:

I believe this article is a little over-simplistic. The common wisdom is that NW will use the Embraer E-Jets which have similar capacity to the DC-9's. These are being broadly defined as RJ's in this article. However, the economics and comfort of the E-Jets are head over heals better than the smaller RJ's.


"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
User currently offlineDeltaGator From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 6341 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 12238 times:

http://www.planespotters.net/Airline/Northwest_Airlines

I know this info may be old but they have a sizeable fleet outside of the DC-9s.

A319 - 65
A320 - 73
A330 - 18
B747 - 34
B757 - 62

I would hazzard a guess that the DC-9s that are replaced with RJs will be on smaller routes that couldn't support these bigger planes. If they pick a decent RJ like the EMB-170/190 (I know...it's debatable if it really is a RJ.) I believe those planes would be a nice fit. I hate the Jungle/Barbie Jets as much as the next guy but not all routes can support a bigger plane.

Since they own the DC-9s as has been said previously those planes will be around for quite some time. Don't expect them to disappear anytime soon.



"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
User currently offlineAirlineAV8tr From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 191 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 12208 times:

I mentioned this in a related topic earlier, but it's going to be very interesting to see the pay scale for these new jets. If NWA pays them the industry standard for RJ pilots, you'll see another pilot uproar. If they pay them similar to what they made on the DC-9, you'll see an uproar amongst RJ pilots! Current average for an RJ 5th year FO, is between $30-$40 an hour. The current NWA payscale for a DC-9 5th-6th year FO on the DC-9 is $75!


If we went into the funeral business, people would stop dying.-Martin S. (PanAm CEO)
User currently offlineJonnyGT From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 242 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 12180 times:

Oh brother, here we go again.

Pick a date for NW to replace the DC-9s. Now push it back at least 10 years. Now we are talking.  Smile


User currently offlineCentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 6, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 12111 times:

I thought I read someplace that the RJs will be for routes where an A319/20 or DC9 are not viable. NW flies to a lot of small places with frequency but is starting to but up with new commers like Allegiant. They are starting to give alternatives to NW in traditionally NW territory like Appleton and Fargo.

Some stations like my hometown airport of CWA has 4 flights a day to MSP and 4 to DTW. These planes are packed every day. When I was young Republic flew there with DC9s that filled up nicely.

NW needs something and the C-series won't come at all and would have been too late anyway. The RRJ would fit but again too late. NW needs something NOW.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineCRJ900 From Norway, joined Jun 2004, 2180 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 11979 times:
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Quoting United737522 (Thread starter):
Sorry if this is old news, but a carrier with a fleet of CRJs really doesn't go well with me. You can't really tell me anyone enjoys them no matter how cheap their ticket is. The only other airline to operate a major fleet of RJs was Indy Air, and we all know how that turned out.

We shouldn't dismiss the CRJs too quickly... BBD appears to have woken up to face the threat from Embraer. The CRJ705, -900 and -900X might be tempting to NW, I'm sure NW is one of the key airlines that BBD is talking to, according to a FI online-article some weeks ago. The E-jets are in very high demand with delivery slots being fully(?) booked out for several years while BBD had spare capacity and perhaps is willing to offer some good deals...?

If the CRJ705, -900 and -900X offer good economics (which apparently they do), MX-commonality with Pinnacle's CRJ200s and clever use of cabin amenities to enhance the feeling of space (light colours and fabrics, 32-33-34 inches of seat pitch and even PTVs) they could be a good replacement for DC9s on routes with reduced demand (75-85 seats per flight) while the A319 covers the other DC9-routes with higher demand (100-126 seats)...

My $0.02 on a Friday  Smile



Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6156 posts, RR: 35
Reply 8, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 11548 times:

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 7):
BBD appears to have woken up to face the threat from Embraer.

But they can't do anything about it.

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 7):
BBD had spare capacity and perhaps is willing to offer some good deals...?

BBD would have trouble offering some "good deals" that are still profitable for them... the appreaciation of the Canadian dollar vs the USD is already having a large impact on profits.

But much more important than the "good deals" is financing the "good deals." That is where BBD is in real trouble. They won't be able to offer Canadian government financing.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineAccess-Air From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1939 posts, RR: 13
Reply 9, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 11411 times:

Im sorry but none of the so called Regional jets even the bigger Embraer planes can compare to a FULL SIZED airliner....
Boeing really screwed the pooch when they decided to close down the B717-200 line. If Boeing had not been thinking inside their shoes they could have sold a mess of them to Northwest as a DC9 replacements.
Is it me or are airplanes getting smaller on the inside whilst the general population get bigger?

I was looking at a picture I shot of a CRJ that I flew on back in 1999 and there were some guys standing next to it loading bags... That plane is dinky...Compare it to Convair 580 or an F27 or one of the older Turboprop airliners it tries to replace and its a toy....Maybe its me but thats what it seems like!!!

Access-Air



Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6156 posts, RR: 35
Reply 10, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 11145 times:

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 9):
Im sorry but none of the so called Regional jets even the bigger Embraer planes can compare to a FULL SIZED airliner....

In what ways are a 737 or A320 more comfortable than an E-jet???



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 11115 times:

These RJs are no surprise. 15 years ago, the NW domestic fleet was basically 2 jets, the 727-200 and DC-9 (ok, and they flew like MSP-DTW, or MSP-LAX on the DC-10). They replaced 727-200 with the 757 and A320, they replaced some of the DC-9 routes with A319s, others, which the DC-9 is still on, will be replaced with CRJ2 and CRJ7's, as well as Embraer E-Jets. The CRJ is an abomination, and I refuse to ride on one unless I am absolutely forced to. I hate them .... with a passion. My understanding is that the E-Jets aren't bad, but i highly doubt they're as roomy, open, and comfortable as the old DC-9s. It is too bad Boeing shut down the 717 line, I would much rather ride a 717 than an E-Jet, and WAY more than a CRJ. That said, NW could also buy A318s, since they've already got a nice fleet of 320s and 319s, but they're going a different direction. Cheaper to pay pilots on a E-Jet, I guess. Anyhow, I avoid flying NW, and I live in their hub.


"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineClaude From France, joined Aug 2005, 75 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 11115 times:

hello everyones... why not 318's?? same family as their 319's...
Airbus didn't sell a lot of them so maybe they could deal for a good price.
your opinion?  Smile


User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6764 posts, RR: 17
Reply 13, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 11016 times:

What's the chance that Embraer will enter into the 105-120 seat Market? Perhaps with a 2800-3000 nm range that could do coast-to-coast? Any at all?


Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineEjmmsu From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1692 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 11016 times:

Quoting Claude (Reply 12):
hello everyones... why not 318's?? same family as their 319's...

The Economics of the E-190/195 is better than the A318 with similar seating capacity.



"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 15, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 11016 times:

They can't get away with paying A318 pilots regional jet wages.


"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 10969 times:

The DC-9 will be replaced in 2025.


One Nation Under God
User currently offlineAR1300 From Argentina, joined Feb 2005, 1740 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 10713 times:

Quoting United737522 (Thread starter):
but a carrier with a fleet of CRJs really doesn't go well with me.

 checkmark 
Independence Air comes to mind.

Mike



They don't call us Continental for nothing.
User currently offlineTinkerBelle From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 10673 times:

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 15):
They can't get away with paying A318 pilots regional jet wages.

What would be the option if you were a pilot? If you don't take it, there is 1000 of us waiting in line to take your Regional jet pay. Heck, I'll give up my good paying job to become an RJ pilot any day because I know I gotta start somewhere. Unfortunate for the current A318 pilots but it's the reality.


User currently offlineORDagent From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 823 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 10558 times:

Quoting Access-Air (Reply 9):
Im sorry but none of the so called Regional jets even the bigger Embraer planes can compare to a FULL SIZED airliner..

I personally find the E-170 much more comfortable than the 737 series and for my clients NO MIDDLE SEAT! Most airlines are marketing them as mainline equipment with first class cabins.

Besides this may be a non issue if the pilots strike and NW collapses.


User currently offlineL1329II From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 10348 times:

Quoting ORDagent (Reply 19):
Most airlines are marketing them as mainline equipment with first class cabins.

Really? Who other than Jazz has a dual cabin setup on the 700 & 900's?


User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6764 posts, RR: 17
Reply 21, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 10317 times:

Quoting L1329II (Reply 20):
Who other than Jazz has a dual cabin setup on the 700 & 900's?

United Express



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineAC7E7 From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 644 posts, RR: 22
Reply 22, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 10241 times:

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 2):
However, the economics and comfort of the E-Jets are head over heals better than the smaller RJ's.

E-Jets offer better comfort, however BBD jets over better economics.

Considering Northwest's crappy in-flight service, they'll probably go with the economics rather than comfort.



Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.
User currently offlineAirlinelover From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 5580 posts, RR: 23
Reply 23, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 10176 times:

Quoting AC7E7 (Reply 22):
Considering Northwest's crappy in-flight service, they'll probably go with the economics rather than comfort.

Oh wow.. a new KAHALA777..

It's not JUST Northwest who has less then sterling service. Look at most domestic carriers..

Chris



Lets do some sexy math. We add you, subtract your clothes, divide your legs and multiply
User currently offlineJetdeltamsy From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2987 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 10176 times:

Quoting United737522 (Thread starter):
The only other airline to operate a major fleet of RJs was Indy Air, and we all know how that turned out.

Indy's RJ fleet was T-I-N-Y,with what..60 RJ's..compared to the RJ fleets in service to the legacy carriers.

American Eagle has some 225+ RJ's in service.

Mesa has 181 RJ's.

Skywest has over 300 RJ's.

The make-up of the RJ fleet is probably beginning to change. The E170 and E190 aircraft are going to prove be much more desireable then the ERJ's and CRJ's currently in use.



Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
25 Remcor : I hope so. Embraer hasn't landed a major new commercial airplane order for a while now. A large NW order would be fantastic.
26 ORDagent : The only issue is that the E jets are too big for many markets. The 135-145 series will still sell for many years. Remember loads shot up on markets
27 RiddlePilot215 : From what I remember correctly, the RJ had HORRIBLE economics, therefore wouldn't ticket prices increase? ...and people say I'M crazy for still belie
28 SuseJ772 : Ohh, you must be referring to the middle seat. You know, I always prefer flying in a row of three over a row of two, or one in the case of somernof t
29 Burnsie28 : Now that the issue of the NW pilots will fly the new birds, I see the Embrear options more likely then the crap hole CRJ!
30 CRJ900 : I think you guys are far too rough on the CRJ, and had every other airliner been praised through the clouds for their wonderful comfort I would rest m
31 Ctbarnes : The CRJ's ARE cramped. I'm 6'2 and claustrophobia sets in if i'm on the plane for more than an hour. It's the most uncomfortable plane I've ever trav
32 Sllevin : Maybe it's me, but the CRJ and ERJ both seem to have slightly narrower seats -- not to mention the very tiny overheads. I haven't been on an EMB-170/1
33 Gunsontheroof : Actually, it's NW that screwed the pooch by not ordering the 717 while it was a available, especially after they were such a large part of the design
34 Deltamike172 : Some say the solution to this RJ problem is to decrease frequency (airlines seem to have a fetish for flying everyone once an hour). I thought this mi
35 Post contains images Lightsaber : I remember reading a.net prior to joining absolutely mistified at the facination with the DC-9. There is also aparently a gate spacing issue at DTW w
36 Post contains images ORFflyer : Damn, I never thought I'd see common sense, and a perfectly spot-on comment in the civ-av forum.... well said!!
37 TheFlyGuy2 : Hey, Anyone know when this replacement process will begin? It sure will be sad to see NW let go of their DC-9's. It sounds strange, but you can't have
38 ODwyerPW : In time, we'll see a 112 pax version of the 195 capable of BWI to LAX with 32" pitch for everyone and decent luggage carrying capability (ie, no appre
39 FlyDreamliner : Here's the deal, The A318 is the same type rating as the 319 and 320, same pilots. If NW wanted to pay their 320 pilots the same as their RJ, they'd
40 FlyMIX : So now a "regional jet" can do all that! It is only regional if you consider North America as a region. If Embraer comes out with a 500 seater to com
41 Birdbrainz : I've noticed something very funny about the RJ's (ERJ-145 and CRJs). When I think about them, they always seem like little sardine cans, and I dread m
42 ODwyerPW : flymix, I don't consider the E-Jets as regional. To me, they are mainline, albiet shorthaul mainline, not longhaul mainline.
43 FlyMIX : Sorry ODPW! I meant just in general, and did not mean to imply you personally did! I agree with you...they are mainline aircraft like a DC9, A319 or
44 Post contains images AndesSMF : Right, look at all the money they are raking in. Economics unfortunately dont help the future of the airline industry. There are so many choices and
45 Sllevin : The 717 has lousy economics. That's why NW (or virtually anyone else that wasn't in financial circumstances) didn't buy it. Boeing, of course, lost m
46 Remcor : Agreed, however even without the union problems B6 went with the E190 over the A318 despite commonality with their A320s. The operating economics of
48 AvConsultant : NW and DAL are screwed even more, both carriers 100 seat aircraft are old and inefficient thus making it impossible to compete with LCC. Their decisi
49 NLINK : There was talk not long ago that Airbus is still trying to get in there 318 into NW fleet. We heard they were offering a lite version of the plane wit
50 CRJ900 : "Open orders"...? Is that the same as options not converted into orders? "20 CRJ440 in exchange"... as in taking back 20 -440 currently flying? Can B
51 NLINK : There was still open order NW has for the CRJ-200 before they filed Chapter 11. I believe there was 13 open orders left. As everyone knows the CRJ-20
52 CRJ900 : That sounds a bit promising (to me anyway), I hope they are able to agree on something that will benefit both BBD and NWA... wonder how long it will
53 Crjflyer35 : I'll haphazardly add myself to the CRJ fan club. Albeit I am only 5'7". I see CRJ's as a product of necessity. At the time they were introduced, the m
54 Post contains images Nitrohelper : Can any redtails out there tell us how many DC-9s NWA are still flying? Second info help would be," how many cycles are left on each ship before they
55 E7plnr : NWA is curently flying 104 DC-9s. A/C cycles are not driving them to park, but rather 'H' and 'M' checks. NWA had decided to park a/c based on checks
56 Nitrohelper : Thanks, I enjoy numbers , do you have any idea of the rate of "checks due"/per year ? At 104 left ,could 20 per year be gone? Five years to the desert
57 BigOrange : The problem is they are still CRJ's i.e. a tube. At least the design of the EM170/190 is a wider body. In our company most travelers from one branch
58 Bahadir : TinkerBelle, suck ups like you is the reason why the industry is paying low low wages for a flying job. Guess what, when you need to start somewhere
59 Rottamo : Thats is an interesting number. According to their financial reports situation was: September 30, 2005 : 127 DC9 in service December 31,2004: 152 DC9
60 Planemaker : Classic case of supply and demand. Short of restricting private pilots from advancing to commerical, IFR, multi, etc., what is the solution?
61 Post contains images Nitrohelper : Okay then: we have 150 still flying or active , at 10 to 20 parked per year, use nine years,, I will start the bidding at ,,, drum roll please,,," 201
62 E7plnr : Rottamo---"According to their financial reports situation was:" Obviously that was the number in September 2005. The following months NWA parked quite
63 Kkfla737 : Does NWA really have 18 gaz guzzling 747-200s still in service? I find that very had to believe!
64 DTWAGENT : Well they have to have the money first to order these planes. And I would hope they would go with the ERJ-170/190. It would be a good replacement for
65 E7plnr : NWA currently flies 5 747-200 passanger and 14 747-200F's. 13 747-400 are also currently flown in Asia operations while 3 are parked at MZJ awaiting l
66 TOLtommy : Pinnacle and Mesaba are two seperate companies. Both are independant of NWA, so NWA would be unable to "merge them together" as suggested. Mesaba is
67 Rottamo : I fully believe in your numbers. I was trying to make point that you have parked quite many after September and also quite many before that. Reductio
68 Post contains images Nitrohelper : Well then if we use 125 still around ,, and 25 getting "wfu" per year, maybe 5 years ? OK ; then my "amended" date is now , JUNE 2012 for the last DC-
69 PHLBOS : IIRC, the break-even (profitwise) production number for the 717 was estimated to be 200. With the final production total at 156 airframes (which I be
70 Post contains images Nitrohelper : How about 150 B797s, 115 seats ,4 & 5 across , If the DC-9s are around past 2010, so the 797 will start EIS when? What's the price vs E-jets? They wou
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