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NZ To Return To SYD-LAX?  
User currently offlineFlyjetstar From Australia, joined Feb 2006, 954 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 7 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6297 times:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/business/...ends/2006/02/24/1140670263191.html

At the bottom of this page it says "However, Mr Fyfe declined to rule out speculation Air NZ might consider re-entering Qantas's lucrative Sydney to Los Angeles route."

Is he just playing games and keeping his options open or are NZ serioulsy considering being a part of SYD-LAX again?

With SQ being a part of Star would they have any involvement in this decision? I know SQ and NZ haven't had teh best of relatoinship in recent years but could they be linked in this some way e.g codeshare?

69 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20641 posts, RR: 62
Reply 1, posted (8 years 7 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6257 times:

Quoting Flyjetstar (Thread starter):
I know SQ and NZ haven't had teh best of relatoinship in recent years but could they be linked in this some way e.g codeshare?

If SQ wanted to carry local traffic on that sector as a code-share, they'd have to secure 7th freedom rights vs. 5th freedom rights if they flew their own metal SIN-LAX via SYD.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25282 posts, RR: 85
Reply 2, posted (8 years 7 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6247 times:
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Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 1):
they'd have to secure 7th freedom rights vs. 5th freedom rights

In view of which, I'd like to ask you a question about "freedoms" - but it is unrelated to this thread and I don't want to hijack the thread.

???

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineHoosierCFI From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 96 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6120 times:

IF NZ was smart, they would re-enter. With their new business class, and Premiere Economy, they are far far ahead of UA's offerings, and offer what looks to be a better product that QF. I think that they would make a killing. I think that a lot of people are interested in their Executive Economy Seats. Much more room, and not nearly as expensive as business class. I know a few people who have already traveled for business reasons to SYD. They were only allowed to fly coach, so they booked Preimere, and loved it. NZ's only downfall is that they no longer have Ansett flights for passengers to connect to, and DJ already code-shares with UA.

User currently offlineOnedude From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 214 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6109 times:

Air NZ would have aircraft issues in tying up 2-3 x 747-400's on a SYD/LAX return - the 777 can't do the range with full payload, and with their plans to fly to LGW via HKG, I can't really see this happening unless they order new aircraft. Given the downgrade of profit cited due to high fuel costs in the last 24 hours, it would be a suicidal move.

User currently offlineTG992 From New Zealand, joined Jan 2001, 2910 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (8 years 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6072 times:

I think it's safe to say NZ won't be back on SYD-LAX in the near future. The new product on the 747s mean it would also be payload restricted on the route, making it completely uneconomical.


-
User currently offlineFlyer88 From New Zealand, joined Dec 2005, 85 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (8 years 7 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6055 times:

NZ has made a fine decision in choosing its long haul product. They have been very well greeted by the travelling public and very much in demand. I was looking at the loads for SFO, LAX, LHR and SIN yesterday and most of the business premier and premium economy were sold out. The latter has been hughly successful, more from what NZ first anticiapted that they are even considering bringing the planes in for another re-fit giving more premium economy seats.

I would like to see NZ back on the SYD/LAX route but given that there is no feeder airline in Australia and given the position that they are in at the moment, it will be a long time coming. NZ is a very smart and cautious player and they will check out the profitability of such move before commiting to it. At the moment they have annouced a profit which is 55% down from the previous year for the 6 months along with more layoffs. They are in saving gear so will make no risky moves.

Say if they do return on the route, what will UA think of it. Will we see them back in AKL?


User currently offlinePilottim747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1607 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (8 years 7 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 6016 times:

Quoting Flyjetstar (Thread starter):
http://www.smh.com.au/news/business/...ends/2006/02/24/1140670263191.html

Your link didnt work for me so I will repost.
Air NZ and Qantas say they can be friends -- Sydney Morning Herald (Feb 25, 2006)

Quoting Flyjetstar (Thread starter):
Is he just playing games and keeping his options open or are NZ serioulsy considering being a part of SYD-LAX again?

It'd be so great if NZ re-entered this market, IMHO. It was really sad to see NZ withdraw from it in 2003.

That being said, however, I dont see it hapenning soon because of the reasons already stated above. NZ doesn't have any extra aircraft lying around and the 777s can't do it (with any kind of decent load).

Quoting TG992 (Reply 5):
The new product on the 747s mean it would also be payload restricted on the route, making it completely uneconomical.

That's too bad. The new business class seats look pretty heavy but very comfy Smile.

pilottim747



Aviation Photographers & Enthusiasts--Coordinate your life.
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25424 posts, RR: 49
Reply 8, posted (8 years 7 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5999 times:

Actually could be an interesting move on Star's part to place pressure on Qantas as result of Australia's refusal to allow Singapore to enter the market.

Having 3 coordinated Star flights between LAX and SYD would undoubtedly put some fare pressure on Qantas while providing additional seats in the market and balancing the heavy tilt in favor of Qantas on route capacity.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineFlyjetstar From Australia, joined Feb 2006, 954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 7 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5978 times:

Quoting TG992 (Reply 5):
I think it's safe to say NZ won't be back on SYD-LAX in the near future. The new product on the 747s mean it would also be payload restricted on the route, making it completely uneconomical.

If that is the case then why would Mr Fyfe not rule it out?
What can be gained by speculation when the reasons given on this thread so far are likely to be well known?


User currently offlineSunriseValley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4992 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (8 years 7 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5920 times:

To re-enter this market would require additional aircraft assuming the 2X daily AKL-LHR goes ahead.
A "big punt" would have them buying the 747-8; a shorter one would be the -200LR and the dark horse would be using a pair of the 787-8 that are on order.
However without a feed it is difficult to see it happening. I have kicked around the thought that the second LHR service might be MEL-HKG- LHR with a feed from AKL /CHC/WLG. and use DJ as an Aus. feed.
Is there any reason why NZ and QF could not do some code sharing. It seems pretty clear that cooperation is going to happen in various forms. They had some fairly advanced thoughts before the Commerce Commission scuttled the more formal structure.


User currently offlineMalpensaSFO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 7 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5896 times:

Quoting HoosierCFI (Reply 3):
IF NZ was smart, they would re-enter

Actually to the contrary, NZ, has not been fairing well lately in the area of cabin service. If NZ were to re-enter the market it would not hurt QF, it would hurt the Star Alliance member UA.

Quoting Flyjetstar (Thread starter):
Is he just playing games and keeping his options open or are NZ serioulsy considering being a part of SYD-LAX again?

Todays NZ, is not the same of 5 years ago. Back then people werent complaining of poor service, or pathetic results. Today NZ is different, and they cannot pick and chose anymore.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 8):
Actually could be an interesting move on Star's part to place pressure on Qantas as result of Australia's refusal to allow Singapore to enter the market

Dont think that QF will not fire back and run NZ far afield again...


User currently offlineFlyer88 From New Zealand, joined Dec 2005, 85 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (8 years 7 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 5862 times:

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 11):
Todays NZ, is not the same of 5 years ago. Back then people werent complaining of poor service, or pathetic results. Today NZ is different, and they cannot pick and chose anymore.

Actually to the contrary, NZ has a service that is renowned worldwide for its warm, kind kiwi hospitality. NZ has come a long way from when it purchased AN which nearly saw it go down itself. The government did help out but if it was not for the people at Air NZ, the carrier would not be here today. The results are cause of different reasons but a large percentage is from the rising fuel costs which no airline has control over. NZ does have a product that can better QF, SQ or CX


User currently offlineAerokiwi From New Zealand, joined Jul 2000, 2714 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (8 years 7 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5810 times:

Quoting Flyer88 (Reply 12):
Actually to the contrary

I disagree to an etxent. I've heard more and more complaints about NZ's cabin servie over the past 2 years than ever before. there appears to have been a noticable decline in the quality of the services. Particularly on flights to and from LAX.


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 14, posted (8 years 7 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5795 times:

I would be very surprised to see NZ get back into the SYD-LAX market - they flew the route for years and it was not a financial success; lets face it, its difficult competing against dominant Qantas on the Australia-US routes.....NZ had trouble with the Sydney service during the Ansett period, when there was feed and connex possibilities throughout Australia, now, NZ would be relying almost exclusively on pax that are going to/from SYD. And, the service does occupy 3 aircraft; the scheduling tends to require using the SYD-LAX 744 on an AKL-SYD segment several times per week for various reasons....I think that NZ has better opportunities to explore. But, as we have all learned, never say never in the airline biz.

User currently offlineKoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 7 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5795 times:

Air NZ would be at least 2 years away from re-entering this market. It would require either the options for 777-200LRs to be converted into orders, or the delivery of the 787s, which is still further away.

The issue of the lost Ansett feed is easily addressed. Early morning AKL-MEL and AKL-BNE A320s would then fly on to SYD with connecting passengers for the LAX service, before operating SYD-AKL and SYD-CHC services at roughly the same time as the SYD-LAX service.

Air NZ's premium and economy products are far superior to the current Qantas offerings, the issue is simply one of 777 range or BNE/MEL feed.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20641 posts, RR: 62
Reply 16, posted (8 years 7 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5787 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 14):
the service does occupy 3 aircraft;

I keep seeing 3 quoted as the number of planes required to operate LAX-SYD-LAX, but can't figure out why it's more than 2.

A flight leaving LAX on a Monday night flies overnight, crosses the International Dateline, gaining a day, arriving Sydney Wednesday morning.

On the return, it departs Sydney at noon Wednesday, flies overnight, crosses the International Dateline, loses a day, arriving LAX Wednesday morning.

Wednesday night, the plane that flew Monday night's flight, flies to SYD again. Isn't that right?



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 17, posted (8 years 7 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 5755 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 16):

I keep seeing 3 quoted as the number of planes required to operate LAX-SYD-LAX, but can't figure out why it's more than 2.

A flight leaving LAX on a Monday night flies overnight, crosses the International Dateline, gaining a day, arriving Sydney Wednesday morning.

On the return, it departs Sydney at noon Wednesday, flies overnight, crosses the International Dateline, loses a day, arriving LAX Wednesday morning.

Wednesday night, the plane that flew Monday night's flight, flies to SYD again. Isn't that right?

You are right, but there are other issues......in general, its very optimistic to schedule a plane for a 14-15 hour segment 7 days per week....maintainance and downtime are needed at set intervals, as you probably know. Next, in the case of NZ, they would have to get the 744 (the only aircraft that currently makes sense for the route in the NZ fleet) back to AKL for maintaince and other needs and to rotate the aircraft in the system (an aircraft is rarely dedicated to one route, airlines like to keep hours in balance on a fleet wide basis).....that could be done by scheduling an aircraft on a AKL-LAX-SYD-LAX-AKL rotation (probably could work) or adding extra segments such as AKL-SYD//SYD-LAX on certain days of the week to move the 744s around.....its not that easy, NZ flies very long segments with a limited fleet of 744s, and not only do the 744s cross the pacific, there is the LAX-LHR segment to consider for scheduing purporses.....for the proposed service to work, the SYD-LAX and return flights must be arranged so that connections onto London are possible.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20641 posts, RR: 62
Reply 18, posted (8 years 7 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5741 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 17):
maintainance and downtime are needed at set intervals, as you probably know.

Right, I understand that, but it seems on occasion that people state in certain terms that an airline can't fly X route because it takes Y planes, when the extra planes are just needed for maintenance issues, etc., not year-round to have a spare for every route. I'm not trying to pick on your comment in particular, it was just convenient.  Wink



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12172 posts, RR: 17
Reply 19, posted (8 years 7 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 5721 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 16):
On the return, it departs Sydney at noon Wednesday, flies overnight, crosses the International Dateline, loses a day, arriving LAX Wednesday morning.

Or as I like to put it, going back in time.


User currently offlinePlanemanofnz From New Zealand, joined Sep 2005, 1676 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 7 months 1 day ago) and read 5578 times:

Well the route does not have to start of daily. It could maybe start at 4x weekly. I think the AKL-BNE-SYD and AKL-MEL-SYD routes sound like a really good idea, except I don't think NZ would budge for it. They will be more focussed on doing the whole 'round the world' thing with there second daily LON service expected to be announced soon.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 14):
flew the route for years and it was not a financial success

Yes, because the product offering was lacking behind QF. Now that NZ has the 747's all done up with ptv's, avod and 34" seat pitch plus premium economy and horizontal lie flat beds in business they could do this route and get a few more profits.


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 21, posted (8 years 7 months 21 hours ago) and read 5490 times:

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 20):
Well the route does not have to start of daily. It could maybe start at 4x weekly. I think the AKL-BNE-SYD and AKL-MEL-SYD routes sound like a really good idea, except I don't think NZ would budge for it. They will be more focussed on doing the whole 'round the world' thing with there second daily LON service expected to be announced soon.

Daily service on a route is more or less required if an airline wants to attract biz and full fare pax.......3 or 4 times per week simply wont work, the aircraft would be filled with vacationers on bargain tickets.

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 20):

Yes, because the product offering was lacking behind QF. Now that NZ has the 747's all done up with ptv's, avod and 34" seat pitch plus premium economy and horizontal lie flat beds in business they could do this route and get a few more profits.

While the new product helps, the product offered by an airline does is a small part of success on a route - QF offers a lot of service from SYD to LAX, and has a huge amount of feed at both SYD and LAX......not to mention QF's loyal following in Australia and the fact that QF ties in with so many US airlines that outside of the OneWorld alliance. NZ tried SYD-LAX once and its unlikely that they are going back.

-----------

NZ is one of my favorite airlines and I go out of my way to fly with them when in the Pacific region......I wish them every success, but I just dont think that NZ returning to the LAX-SYD makes much sense.


User currently offlineNZ1 From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 2266 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (8 years 7 months 12 hours ago) and read 4843 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 17):
could be done by scheduling an aircraft on a AKL-LAX-SYD-LAX-AKL rotation (probably could work)

When we were flying the route, this is exactly what used to happen.

NZ1


User currently offlineSimpilicity From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 7 months 11 hours ago) and read 4820 times:

Quoting HoosierCFI (Reply 3):
IF NZ was smart, they would re-enter.

If NZ were really smart (um, that might be an oxomoron, Kiwi really smart - ok they can play rugby even if Auckland has a Aussie coach),

they'd avoid SYD/LAX as already overserviced & look at BNE/LAX or even MEL/LAX. BNE/LAX still has only 5/week & other 2 days of week pax must go via awful SYD. We have business types who will change their meeting in U.S. to avoid this mess at SYD.

Apart from SYD originating pax, no Australian wants to fly to SYD domestically to stuff around wasting hours & hours getting the bus from domestic to international & vice versa is worse. Unless u've done it, u don't know how bad it is.


User currently offlineSimpilicity From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 7 months 11 hours ago) and read 4818 times:

Quoting Simpilicity (Reply 23):
they'd avoid SYD/LAX as already overserviced & look at BNE/LAX or even MEL/LAX.

sorry wasn't thinking ... they'd be too payload restricted on MEL/LAX & especially LAX/MEL, but I think LAX/BNE is about 600 miles less than LAX/SYD.


25 MalpensaSFO : Renowned? When was the last time you flew NZ? Better than QF? Better than SQ? Better than CX? Is that the reason that they are pulling Taipei-AKL, Lo
26 Simpilicity : NZ flight attendants are good at looking after ... NZ flight attendants. Hell they are a government airline. Tell me one government run enterprise in
27 Planemanofnz : LAX is being downgraded to seasonally because there isn't enough pax between the two destinations. From what I believe TPE being dropped has somethin
28 Koruman : NZ's new seats, seating pitch and seatback AVOD are far superior to Singapore Airlines, Cathay Pacific and Qantas, there is just no comparison at all.
29 Nzrich : Do you think the Australian Government would of let QF go under i dont think so !!!! When a country relies on 1 airline for between 40-50% of all tou
30 767ER : I cannot see NZ doing SYD LAX anytime soon.There is just isn't the internal feeder service ie:Star to justify reintroduction.Besides I think NZ is con
31 Simpilicity : When QF goes broke in a few years time, the void will be filled very quickly by efficient airlines.
32 TG992 : Can I just put to bed the rumour that TPE was dropped due to gain PVG rights. This is inaccurate. TPE was dropped due to being unprofitable. 767ER mak
33 NZ1 : As TG992 said, Taipei, and also CHC/LAX were unprofitable. Thats what good managers do isn't it, identify moneymaking routes from loss making routes?
34 Nzrich : As for Syd-Lax returning i would love to see it ,but somehow doubt it will be the first routes NZ will be looking at somehow !!!! I believe there woul
35 VirginFlyer : I'm not going to bite on this. If this is the basis of your arguments, then I don't think that any of us should be taking them seriously. I hate to b
36 777ER : Last time for me was a few months ago, when was the last time for you? In terms of seat pitch, IFE, new cabins, friendly FAs then yes NZ does. Oh yea
37 767ER : While i am by no means a QF fan, the notion that it will go broke is just absurd........and please do not dredge up AN again. Its just too boring for
38 NZ1 : Many thanks NZ1
39 DJ738 : A company's people are the one aspect of their "service product" that to a large degree cannot be controlled, in the same way that actual items such
40 QANTASpower : Whats all this crap about NZ being better than SQ, CX and QF ... give me a break. We simply had an airline which dragged the chain on upgrading their
41 FlyboyOz : Well...I hope ANZ will have amentity kits in economy class. I cant fly without amentity kits and also PTVs with AVODs.
42 Post contains images TG992 : Ever consider (gasp) buying your own eyemask, travel toothbrush, comb, and moisturiser? It should cost you under 10 bucks, and then you'd be able to
43 TG992 : Sorry to rain on your parade, but the NZ product on the 777 and 74R aircraft is, quite simply, better than SQ, CX, and QF. This was even admitted by
44 AirCanada014 : Since AC will be doing the SYD-LAX-YYZ, AC will be working with UA, US and NZ to allow them codeshare on AC's flight. This will give NZ a breather mea
45 Simpilicity : Don't u think AC should be on the route ASAP meaning over busy DEC-JAN period? Surely they can find an aircraft before then. They could talk to their
46 Nzrich : Do you honestly believe airlines these days have aircraft parked just in case they want to start another route or hire out to others if they need one
47 Antskip : The guy obviously has no idea! I can't speak of SQ, but he can't have travelled on an EK A345. I travelled the Tasman economy only a few weeks ago by
48 Koruman : Qantaspower makes me laugh with his disdain for NZ's product and his blind faith that Qantas' A380 will change the world! A few aircraft will have a n
49 AirCanada014 : That doesn't matter how many ff members u have, they are all within Star Alliance so maybe some NZ ff members in Australia might want to fly with AC
50 Flyjetstar : I too am tired of this remark. Using the future which by its nature is unknown to base an argument on is simply pointless. It presupposes too much an
51 N1120A : You are both completely wrong. The 656,000 pound 772ER's than NZ operates have MORE range than all 744s that exist, including the 744ER. The range is
52 777ER : Now that is a total insult for the other BNE members
53 Simpilicity : Seriously, what long term hope have NZ got. Lucky all those expat Kiwi's living in Bondi SYD & Gold Coast & Brisbane still support NZ.
54 Post contains images 777ER : With all the aircraft orders, and all the changes happening and all the increasing profits over the last few years, I would say an excellent future a
55 Simpilicity : Of course not, but SQ want to get on the route & this is one way of bypassing corrupt politicians stupid decisions. NZ wrecked their ff programme wit
56 TG990 : Erk why the need to have such harsh horrible comments. Who cares who has the "best" product, we as pax want a great product. The best sounds good, bu
57 ZKSUJ : Could not have put it better myself. People will always be byassed towards certain airlines. I know people who are biased towards airline A, badmouth
58 Koruman : Actually, the 400,000 Air NZ frequent flyer members in Australia are now members of a scheme which gives far more points for flights on NZ metal and d
59 Nzrich : This very much depends on what way you look at the situation ..I had lots of QF frequent flyer points , It was always a pain in the backside trying t
60 SunriseValley : If NZ were to return to the route with behind the scenes encouragement of QF this could serve to deflect the criticism of SQ being shut out of the rou
61 Simpilicity : If u want a generous ff programme look at UA's mileage plus, although can be complicated & waste res staff time sorting out. It's a done deal. AC fly
62 AirCanada014 : Where is the source sayings its a done deal please?
63 SunriseValley : The press release said it is subject to getting the necessary approvals. It is no done deal!
64 Simpilicity : They are just a formality, AC can't be denied, unles they eg. go out of business.
65 SunriseValley : Upon what basis can you make this statement? Such agreements are between countries and usually spell out what the designated airline of each of the c
66 Yellowtail : For whatever its worth ...I did LAX-SYD-LAX on NZ about 6 years ago......the flight was full both ways...if fact they bumped us up to Business class b
67 Simpilicity : when NZ flew SYD/LAX, apart from school holidays/Easter/Xmas it was virtually guaranteed that if they had a flight you could get an AD75, so yes thei
68 Pilotdude09 : The good thing bout NZ is that the f/a's dont work like robots They have a half decent CEO unlike Geoff Dickhead. Who's not trying to kill the whole
69 Simpilicity : Dixon knows QF is stuffed long term, but has the sense to expand Jetstar & into Asia, which is huge market which will grow like China's economy. QF w
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