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$ For Flying IAH-HNL Over Mexico?  
User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6813 posts, RR: 7
Posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2859 times:

Looking at the flight plans on http://www.flightaware.com I see CO's IAH-HNL nonstop sometimes stays over the US and sometimes heads WSW from Houston over Mexico (Ciudad Obregon, then lat-lons across the ocean instead of a track). Mexico must charge them for the overflight? If they flightplan over the US, just skirting the border, are they allowed to deviate southward around weather-- or, if they do deviate, do they get charged?

How about flights from Chicago/Detroit and west, to Boston/NY? Does Canada charge for the overflight? Or, if they do, is it more expensive than staying over the US?

13 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25062 posts, RR: 46
Reply 1, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2812 times:

Both Mexico and Canada charge overflight fees.

Fees are based on the distance travelled within the respective FIRs.
Mexico's fees are pretty reasonable on a global scale, however Nav-Canada is one of the more expensive ATC providers particularly when one considers the size and distances involved. Canada's fees are also applicable in the large oceanic areas covered by its ATC.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1619 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2670 times:

Yes but NAV-Canada is a private for profit company right "outsourced" to make money for themselves and the Government of Canada...

User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2649 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 1):

Mexico's fees are pretty reasonable on a global scale, however Nav-Canada is one of the more expensive ATC providers particularly when one considers the size and distances involved. Canada's fees are also applicable in the large oceanic areas covered by its ATC.

Is this also applicable for the flights that go over Canada say on approach to a place like BUF, CLE, ERI, or DTW? I've been pretty far out over Lake Erie on flights into DTW, alot closer to the Canadian side than the American side it seems.


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2628 times:

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 3):
I've been pretty far out over Lake Erie on flights into DTW, alot closer to the Canadian side than the American side it seems.

The boundary for Cleveland ARTCC (ZOB) is just north of the north shore of Lake Erie, and runs east-west. If you're over Lake Erie, you're in ZOB's airspace...


User currently offlineJuventus From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2835 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2597 times:

Mexico might charge money, but I think the reason CO stays over the US its probably to avoid the paperwork. They go over Mexico, they'll save what? 20 minutes....

User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 6, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2556 times:

Quoting Juventus (Reply 5):
they'll save what? 20 minutes

Considering that is 2 flights a day from IAH to HNL and the current one to OGG that is a bundle of money 20 minutes a day when they file that way due to winds.....otherwise they wouldn't do it.



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2533 times:

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 4):

The boundary for Cleveland ARTCC (ZOB) is just north of the north shore of Lake Erie, and runs east-west. If you're over Lake Erie, you're in ZOB's airspace...

That's interesting, considering it's Canadian sovereign territory.


User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25062 posts, RR: 46
Reply 8, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2462 times:

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 7):
That's interesting, considering it's Canadian sovereign territory.

Physical country border do not always equate to similar airspace borders.

For instance with Canada, US centers of Anchorage, Cleveland and Minneapolis manage cover portions of Canada's physical landmass, while Canadian Montreal and Vancouver cover some areas of US landmass.

With Mexico its also somewhat similar with Albuquerque and Ft Worth covering portions of Mexico's landmass while Mexico's Monterrey Center ends ups covering a portion of Southern Texas.

Similar situations occurs in other parts of the world, particularly Europe.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2411 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 8):

Physical country border do not always equate to similar airspace borders.

Learn something every day..


User currently offlinePlanespotting From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3527 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2389 times:

So what are the "rates" like?

Do US aircraft flying directly to cities in Canada pay an airspace user fee and an ATC landing fee, or how does that work exactly?

can anyone elaborate more on these user fees? We are lucky in the US that we do not use them (especially GA)



Do you like movies about gladiators?
User currently offlineLt-AWACS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 2304 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 8):
With Mexico its also somewhat similar with Albuquerque and Ft Worth covering portions of Mexico's landmass while Mexico's Monterrey Center ends ups covering a portion of Southern Texas.

No Part of Fort Worth Center's border touches Mexico. Only Houston and Albuquerque. Also none of my FAA 7610.4 pubs/LOAs show any of south Texas in Monterrey's control. Do you have a chart or pub I could see? I am intrigued now.

Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
Capt-AWACS, All Redheads are insane


User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25062 posts, RR: 46
Reply 12, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2271 times:

Quoting Lt-AWACS (Reply 11):
Fort Worth Center's border touches Mexico

Absolutely right. I meant Houston (ZHU)

Quoting Lt-AWACS (Reply 11):
Do you have a chart or pub I could see? I am intrigued now.

Its a small area just South of HRL & MFE, plus a thin area just West of if you were to draw a straight line from MFE to NLD.

In return both Houston and Albuquerque control some areas over Mexico's territory further North and to the West.

Quoting Planespotting (Reply 10):
can anyone elaborate more on these user fees?

Mexico currently (atleast as of 2005 was) 2.52peso's (about $0.25USD) per Kilometer from entry of FIR to exit of FIR.

Nav-Canada on the other hand has a quite complex rate structure with fees for everything including enroute fees, terminal fees, airport fees, communications fees, oceanic fees...etc.
If you want some bed time reading here is a guide.
http://www.navcanada.ca/ContentDefin...s/Customer_Guide_to_Charges_en.pdf

At the end of the day, Canada can get pretty expensive. I know some airlines that will try to avoid transiting Canada on transcon flying if the enroute time via an all US route does not add much to the trip.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineCdeanda From Mexico, joined Feb 2001, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2149 times:

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 12):
I know some airlines that will try to avoid transiting Canada on transcon flying if the enroute time via an all US route does not add much to the trip

That's right. I flew with WestJet YVR-YUL-YVR on Oct 2004 and we stayed most of the time over US airspace.

Cheers,

Carlos


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