Timz From United States, joined Sep 1999, 4823 posts, RR: 3 Posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1066 times:
Looking at the flight plans on http://www.flightaware.com I see CO's IAH-HNL nonstop sometimes stays over the US and sometimes heads WSW from Houston over Mexico (Ciudad Obregon, then lat-lons across the ocean instead of a track). Mexico must charge them for the overflight? If they flightplan over the US, just skirting the border, are they allowed to deviate southward around weather-- or, if they do deviate, do they get charged?
How about flights from Chicago/Detroit and west, to Boston/NY? Does Canada charge for the overflight? Or, if they do, is it more expensive than staying over the US?
Laxintl From United States, joined May 2000, 8478 posts, RR: 12 Reply 1, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1019 times:
Both Mexico and Canada charge overflight fees.
Fees are based on the distance travelled within the respective FIRs.
Mexico's fees are pretty reasonable on a global scale, however Nav-Canada is one of the more expensive ATC providers particularly when one considers the size and distances involved. Canada's fees are also applicable in the large oceanic areas covered by its ATC.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
COSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1012 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 877 times:
Yes but NAV-Canada is a private for profit company right "outsourced" to make money for themselves and the Government of Canada...
Tornado82 From , joined today!, posts, RR: Reply 3, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 856 times:
Quoting Laxintl (Reply 1):
Mexico's fees are pretty reasonable on a global scale, however Nav-Canada is one of the more expensive ATC providers particularly when one considers the size and distances involved. Canada's fees are also applicable in the large oceanic areas covered by its ATC.
Is this also applicable for the flights that go over Canada say on approach to a place like BUF, CLE, ERI, or DTW? I've been pretty far out over Lake Erie on flights into DTW, alot closer to the Canadian side than the American side it seems.
OPNLguy From United States, joined Jun 1999, 12393 posts, RR: 73 Reply 4, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 835 times:
Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 3): I've been pretty far out over Lake Erie on flights into DTW, alot closer to the Canadian side than the American side it seems.
The boundary for Cleveland ARTCC (ZOB) is just north of the north shore of Lake Erie, and runs east-west. If you're over Lake Erie, you're in ZOB's airspace...
Carelessness and overconfidence are usually far more dangerous than deliberately accepted risks.
Juventus From United States, joined Dec 2004, 2380 posts, RR: 2 Reply 5, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 804 times:
Mexico might charge money, but I think the reason CO stays over the US its probably to avoid the paperwork. They go over Mexico, they'll save what? 20 minutes....
Considering that is 2 flights a day from IAH to HNL and the current one to OGG that is a bundle of money 20 minutes a day when they file that way due to winds.....otherwise they wouldn't do it.
Tornado82 From , joined today!, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 740 times:
Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 4):
The boundary for Cleveland ARTCC (ZOB) is just north of the north shore of Lake Erie, and runs east-west. If you're over Lake Erie, you're in ZOB's airspace...
That's interesting, considering it's Canadian sovereign territory.
Laxintl From United States, joined May 2000, 8478 posts, RR: 12 Reply 8, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 669 times:
Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 7): That's interesting, considering it's Canadian sovereign territory.
Physical country border do not always equate to similar airspace borders.
For instance with Canada, US centers of Anchorage, Cleveland and Minneapolis manage cover portions of Canada's physical landmass, while Canadian Montreal and Vancouver cover some areas of US landmass.
With Mexico its also somewhat similar with Albuquerque and Ft Worth covering portions of Mexico's landmass while Mexico's Monterrey Center ends ups covering a portion of Southern Texas.
Similar situations occurs in other parts of the world, particularly Europe.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
Lt-AWACS From , joined today!, posts, RR: Reply 11, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 511 times:
Quoting Laxintl (Reply 8): With Mexico its also somewhat similar with Albuquerque and Ft Worth covering portions of Mexico's landmass while Mexico's Monterrey Center ends ups covering a portion of Southern Texas.
No Part of Fort Worth Center's border touches Mexico. Only Houston and Albuquerque. Also none of my FAA 7610.4 pubs/LOAs show any of south Texas in Monterrey's control. Do you have a chart or pub I could see? I am intrigued now.
Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
Capt-AWACS, All Redheads are insane
Mexico currently (atleast as of 2005 was) 2.52peso's (about $0.25USD) per Kilometer from entry of FIR to exit of FIR.
Nav-Canada on the other hand has a quite complex rate structure with fees for everything including enroute fees, terminal fees, airport fees, communications fees, oceanic fees...etc.
If you want some bed time reading here is a guide. http://www.navcanada.ca/ContentDefin...s/Customer_Guide_to_Charges_en.pdf
At the end of the day, Canada can get pretty expensive. I know some airlines that will try to avoid transiting Canada on transcon flying if the enroute time via an all US route does not add much to the trip.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
Cdeanda From Mexico, joined Feb 2001, 82 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 356 times:
Quoting Laxintl (Reply 12): I know some airlines that will try to avoid transiting Canada on transcon flying if the enroute time via an all US route does not add much to the trip
That's right. I flew with WestJet YVR-YUL-YVR on Oct 2004 and we stayed most of the time over US airspace.
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