Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Kelleher Eager To See 787 Technology On New 737  
User currently offlineAeroPiggot From United States of America, joined May 2005, 284 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 9 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6467 times:

More pressure from LUV on Boeing to develop the 737 sucessor sooner rather than later....

Southwest Chairman Herb Kelleher wants Boeing to take the technology used on its 787 aircraft and apply it to a new 737 sooner rather than later.

The airline's 447 737s comprise about 10% of the global fleet of the aircraft type, according to Boeing, and the airframer plans to deliver 33 planes to Southwest this year.

Kelleher told attendees at the annual FAA forecast conference yesterday in Washington that Southwest intends "to keep buying planes from Boeing." He touted the technology on the 787 as "splendid," highlighting the aircraft's fuel efficiency and easy maintenance.

"The faster Boeing can transfer those characteristics to its narrowbody planes, Kelleher said, "the happier we will be."

Boeing might take notice of the request of its largest 737 customer. VP-Marketing Randy Baseler wrote in an entry on his blog late last year that while Boeing is looking at options for the future of its single-aisle planes, the time for a new breed of that aircraft is "still a ways off," and he noted that "there's no pressure from airlines to find a successor to it."

Baseler said breakthroughs in fuel consumption and operating costs on a new aircraft would need to be superior to current plane models to warrant the infrastructure costs associated with a new single-aisle aircraft type."


A scientist discovers that which exists, an engineer creates that which never was.
42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31243 posts, RR: 85
Reply 1, posted (8 years 9 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6444 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Engines are still going to have the biggest impact on efficiency, though a wider, lighter structure will have it's advantages, to be sure.

User currently offlineAndessmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 9 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6402 times:

Quoting AeroPiggot (Thread starter):
highlighting the aircraft's fuel efficiency and easy maintenance

Like I previously posted, fuel consumption is a consideration for airplanes, but other things may be added to make the airplane more efficient in other ways. Many years ago, there were discussions to make airplan technology more 'off the shelf', to say that certain items are easily and cheaply obtained. This is what I call the 'Home Depot' effect. In construction, the field I work, there are now many items that are stock items, easily available, and therefore cheap. Custom items (like airplane parts) are more expensive and may take many weeks for fabrication and delivery. If airplane maintenance moves towards this construction idea, parts inventory and management may become easier and cheaper. Herb is essentially making this point by saying easy maintenance is a selling factor.


User currently offlineAeronut From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 138 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 9 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 6256 times:

Quoting Andessmf (Reply 2):
Like I previously posted, fuel consumption is a consideration for airplanes, but other things may be added to make the airplane more efficient in other ways. Many years ago, there were discussions to make airplan technology more 'off the shelf', to say that certain items are easily and cheaply obtained. This is what I call the 'Home Depot' effect. In construction, the field I work, there are now many items that are stock items, easily available, and therefore cheap. Custom items (like airplane parts) are more expensive and may take many weeks for fabrication and delivery. If airplane maintenance moves towards this construction idea, parts inventory and management may become easier and cheaper. Herb is essentially making this point by saying easy maintenance is a selling factor.

True, but I think you'll find fuel costs are probably a more important factor and cost driver for running an airline.


User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 9 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 6121 times:

Quoting Aeronut (Reply 3):
True, but I think you'll find fuel costs are probably a more important factor and cost driver for running an airline.

Perhaps I should clarify myself, fuel consumption is very important, but there are other places to also look to for more efficiency of the airplane.


User currently offlineAbba From Denmark, joined Jun 2005, 1376 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (8 years 9 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 6084 times:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 4):
Perhaps I should clarify myself, fuel consumption is very important, but there are other places to also look to for more efficiency of the airplane.

How big is the difference in maintaining a second generation 737 compared to the 737NG? I believe I have read the figure somewhere and it was surprisingly big. Anyone know?

Abba


User currently offlineSlovacek747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 9 months 12 hours ago) and read 5559 times:

My advice... Do what WN wants!! Very few customers are as loyal as them...

Slovacek747


User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6349 posts, RR: 34
Reply 7, posted (8 years 9 months 10 hours ago) and read 5420 times:

Quoting Andessmf (Reply 2):
Like I previously posted, fuel consumption is a consideration for airplanes, but other things may be added to make the airplane more efficient in other ways.



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 4):
Perhaps I should clarify myself, fuel consumption is very important, but there are other places to also look to for more efficiency of the airplane.

Here is another concept for cost saving considerations... Boeing should certify the "new" 737 for single pilot operation.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineSeanp11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 290 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 9 months 9 hours ago) and read 5372 times:

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 7):
Here is another concept for cost saving considerations... Boeing should certify the "new" 737 for single pilot operation.

I doubt that the FAA will ever allow that.


User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 9 months 8 hours ago) and read 5332 times:

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 7):
Here is another concept for cost saving considerations... Boeing should certify the "new" 737 for single pilot operation.

Congratulations on a very insightful post...

Yeah, why even make it a dual engine when one could do the job??


User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4376 posts, RR: 28
Reply 10, posted (8 years 9 months 8 hours ago) and read 5321 times:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 9):
Quoting Planemaker (Reply 7):
Here is another concept for cost saving considerations... Boeing should certify the "new" 737 for single pilot operation.

Congratulations on a very insightful post...

Yeah, why even make it a dual engine when one could do the job??

And why not just hand out piddle-packs to each of the passengers? The space normally reserved for lavs could then be fitted with a few more extra seats.  Wink



My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 9 months 8 hours ago) and read 5308 times:

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 10):
And why not just hand out piddle-packs to each of the passengers? The space normally reserved for lavs could then be fitted with a few more extra seats.

Wait for the check from FR for such an excellent idea!  Wink

Thanks for the laugh


User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 12, posted (8 years 9 months 7 hours ago) and read 5282 times:

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 7):
Boeing should certify the "new" 737 for single pilot operation.

That's not a bad idea. Many newer private jets are certified for single-pilot operation. Certainly the first airliner to be certified for single-pilot operation would be a narrow-body.

Quoting Seanp11 (Reply 8):

I doubt that the FAA will ever allow that.

The future lasts a long time. Someday the FAA will allow single-pilot operation of airliners just as they already do with some other jets. Perhaps initially, it will be allowed only for flights of two hours or less.


User currently offlineSeanp11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 290 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 9 months 6 hours ago) and read 5249 times:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 12):
The future lasts a long time. Someday the FAA will allow single-pilot operation of airliners just as they already do with some other jets. Perhaps initially, it will be allowed only for flights of two hours or less.

The technology exists today, but there's a good reason why airliners are flown by two pilots--redundancy. Not only redundancy for if the pilot were to get sick or die, but also in the decision process. Two minds are better than one. It is one thing to have a sole pilot in a private aircraft, but it is another thing when you got a hundred paying passengers in the back.


User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 9 months 6 hours ago) and read 5233 times:

Quoting Seanp11 (Reply 13):
but there's a good reason why airliners are flown by two pilots--redundancy

We have a winner!! That is the reason why airliners will never choose single pilot operation.


User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 37
Reply 15, posted (8 years 9 months 6 hours ago) and read 5213 times:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 14):

We have a winner!! That is the reason why airliners will never choose single pilot operation.

I do wonder if we might see a pilot serving double duty in the cabin.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6349 posts, RR: 34
Reply 16, posted (8 years 9 months 6 hours ago) and read 5194 times:

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 15):
I do wonder if we might see a pilot serving double duty in the cabin.

That could be a first step in the commercial passenger arena. However, I see cargo jets going down to a single pilot first followed by your scenario.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 9):
Yeah, why even make it a dual engine when one could do the job??

Your response makes as much sense as someone suggesting that we go back to a 3-man crew and 4-engines on all aircraft.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlinePavlin From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 9 months 5 hours ago) and read 5146 times:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 14):
We have a winner!! That is the reason why airliners will never choose single pilot operation.

Obviously you have never flown small jets. Or did you have?
1 pilot is enough


User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 9 months 4 hours ago) and read 5090 times:

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 16):
Your response makes as much sense as someone suggesting that we go back to a 3-man crew and 4-engines on all aircraft.

Ummm...sarcasm...

Quoting Pavlin (Reply 17):
Obviously you have never flown small jets. Or did you have?
1 pilot is enough

Yes, but this is apples and oranges, small airplanes and airliners are covered under different set of rules. You dont usually have flight attendant on small jets either, and airlines will not get rid of them...yet! (that last word was sarcasm again, but if MOL hears of it...)


User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6349 posts, RR: 34
Reply 19, posted (8 years 9 months 4 hours ago) and read 5067 times:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 18):
Ummm...sarcasm...

The sarcasm was obvious and doesn't make any sense.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineA319XFW From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 9 months ago) and read 4946 times:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 9):
Quoting Planemaker (Reply 7):
Here is another concept for cost saving considerations... Boeing should certify the "new" 737 for single pilot operation.

Congratulations on a very insightful post...

Yeah, why even make it a dual engine when one could do the job??

You take a perfectly serious post and try and ridicule it (perhaps without any background knowledge)

So where do we start? Perhaps with military aviation.
We slowly going from 1-2 crew cockpits to unmanned UAV's and UCAV's. A few (2?) aircraft are controlled from the ground by ground controllers and don't have pilots in them and they have aquired targets and fired missiles and droppedbombs on them.

In the civilian aviation:
There was a test recently done by DLR/University of Braunschweig (can't remember exactly which) where an un-piloted aircraft (VFW-614?) flew and landed safely at Manching airbase. The air traffic controllers were not told this was an unmanned (with pilots in the cabin as safety backup) flight and treated it as any other (I can't find the link but it was either in the Aero International or Flug Revue). So it is possible.
Current problems include air traffic management and passenger perception flying on an aircraft with one pilot/no pilots.

That is why I agree that it will first be seen on a freighter and not a passenger jet.


User currently offlineWnsocal From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 129 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (8 years 9 months ago) and read 4910 times:

I thought this thread was about Kellerher and the 787 technology?


Airline Nut
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 22, posted (8 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4854 times:

Technologies we may see in Y1:
- Fuselage in 3 composite sections (vs 8 sections for the B787)
- Engines with SFC below 0.5
- Fuel cell APU
- Electric (rather than pneumatic) systems
- Large windows
- 6000 foot cabin altitude
- Greater use of composites (fewer metal parts)
- HUD avionics

What else?


User currently offlineAeroPiggot From United States of America, joined May 2005, 284 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4818 times:

Quote:
Slovacek747: My advice... Do what WN wants!! Very few customers are as loyal as them...

Well Guys as you may have now heard, it seems that Boeing as accelerated the 737 replacement studies. Boeing Firms Up 737 Replacement Studies. (by WINGS Mar 2 2006 in Civil Aviation) So they are listening....lets all wait for the Airbus response..(may be they will just install the new 737X engines on the current A320)....  

[Edited 2006-03-02 16:25:36]


A scientist discovers that which exists, an engineer creates that which never was.
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 24, posted (8 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4730 times:

Quoting AeroPiggot (Reply 23):
lets all wait for the Airbus response..(may be they will just install the new 737X engines on the current A320)

I think Airbus can be counted on to more than just change the A320's engines. Airbus will probably either produce an all-new composite-fuselage design or renovate the A320 with about the same scope as the B737 -> B737NG or A330 -> A350 renovation.


25 Andessmf : Previously to the thread descending into some problems, I was stating that there were other things besides fuel economy that could be utilized in the
26 Ikramerica : i could see single class airlines doing 2-2-2 if there is room, and 2 class airlines sticking with 2-2/3-3. With six rails for mounting seat structur
27 PlaneDane : Raked wingtips? I'm not sure... Yes, I thought that two aisles is planned for the B737 replacement as well.
28 Ikramerica : Likely for the longer range versions of the larger jets (757 replacement, 738/9 replacement), and possibly on the BBJNG 736/73G replacement.
29 Texan : In terms of time, yes, but the extra dimensions added to the aircraft would increase the weight and fuel burn. It would also increase the amount of p
30 Zvezda : One wide aisle allows faster embarkation and disembarkation than two narrow aisles. Two narrow aisles will both get blocked. One wide aisle will not
31 Planemaker : Without agreeing with me, it is too bad that you are unable to simply acknowledge the possibility of a single-pilot 737 (as others have done - in agr
32 Andessmf : Eliminate a pilot and you have no backup, here in my company we spend thousands of dollars to maintain adequate backup of all our resources. Business
33 Stitch : It will also allow those who insist on bringing 21" wide (instead of long) rollaboards and/or everything they bought on vacation in a dozen bags to q
34 A319XFW : It's all about efficiency. Once you can get the reliability up, why have something that will fail under 10e-9 or so, when you can have a computer and
35 Andessmf : Ah, crap! I see where it is a possibility. I'm getting old, cause that technology I dont like.
36 Planemaker : Just because you hadn't heard that suggestion before still doesn't give you any basis to "ridicule" it. BTW, the only thing novel about my suggestion
37 Ikramerica : on a plane of this size you could likely condense it into maximum of 4. Nose and forward section as 1 (which can grow with model), center section (wh
38 Zvezda : No, the backup is that the aircraft lands itself on a preselected runway. There are now single-engine bizjets. I think the thrust centreline issue is
39 Andessmf : So I wrongly assumed you were joking, I apologize for that. Single pilot operation? I think it was a knee-jerk reaction to something that I find unre
40 Planemaker : Thank you for the apology. All that I ever look for is reasoned discourse. Your point about "feeling more comfortable" about a single-pilot 737 will
41 Andessmf : The only real glitch I see in single pilot operations is the requirement for more automation for the ATC system. But that is a different can of worms!
42 Post contains links Planemaker : The ATC system will be significantly upgraded by nex gen 737 EIS. However, the required automation will reside in the aircraft much more than in the
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
AA Wants To Start Early Talks On A New Pilot Deal posted Mon Jul 24 2006 22:30:39 by KarlB737
Airbus To Spend $10 Bln On New Plane posted Wed May 10 2006 19:22:44 by Tugger
CFO: Boeing To Use 787 Technology In Narrow-Body posted Tue Feb 14 2006 16:27:40 by Leelaw
Sad To See The Demise Of The 737 At LHR posted Mon Nov 28 2005 19:48:33 by Bigpappa
Awiator R&D Technology On New Airbus Types? posted Thu Mar 18 2004 11:03:36 by KEESJE
Boeing To Use 7E7 Technology In New 747 posted Wed Oct 8 2003 13:59:14 by Keesje
UIA To Begin Heavy Maintenance On Its 737 Fleet. posted Thu Nov 9 2000 01:20:56 by Slawko
New Technology On The 787 posted Tue May 3 2005 08:09:42 by ACB777
New 737-300 On Delivery To Azteca Shortly posted Sat Oct 9 2004 03:11:54 by RobK
D/FW Airport To Break Ground On New Taxiway posted Mon Oct 9 2006 20:21:04 by Danairbus