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Hutchinson's Push For Compromise On The WA  
User currently offlineCjpark From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1248 posts, RR: 6
Posted (8 years 5 months 22 hours ago) and read 4950 times:

Texas Senator Hutchinson chaired a meeting of the North Texas Congressional Delegation to ask for them to support a legislative cease-fire from Texas lawmakers in the fight over the Wright Amendment.

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/14001639.htm

Plan allows Fort Worth, Dallas to manage Wright fight

By MARIA RECIOSTAR-TELEGRAM WASHINGTON BUREAU


"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
157 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineApodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4234 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (8 years 5 months 22 hours ago) and read 4934 times:

My only wish was that this happened 30 years ago when DFW first opened. This should have been handled locally from the start, and unfortunately its become a federal issue because congress chose to intervene. I hope both sides see its in the best interest to let everything be unrestricted, but I will respect whatever decision the cities reach jointly. I somehow fear however, that Southwest, or American, if they don't get their way, will not. I hope I am wrong.

User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 2, posted (8 years 5 months 21 hours ago) and read 4892 times:

Quoting Apodino (Reply 1):
My only wish was that this happened 30 years ago when DFW first opened.

Well, depending on how you look at it, this issue was settled when DFW was planned. During the regulated days, when the CAB controlled the skies, DFW was planned with the understanding that, upon its completion, DAL would be closed. This was before Southwest Airlines even existed, however, and when time came to open up DFW, Southwest was able to argue that it shouldn't be subjected to the shutdown of DAL (WN was able to fly from DAL to markets within Texas, because CAB didn't have the power to regulate intrastate markets) because it wasn't around when the agreement to close DAL came about.

That all changed with deregulation; CAB no longer had the authority to require that interstate flights originate at DFW. Hence the Wright Amendment was developed.

So, depending on how you look at things, you could argue that this issue was settled long ago. Of course, it's much more complicated than that, especially with hindsight.



"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineTexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4273 posts, RR: 52
Reply 3, posted (8 years 5 months 21 hours ago) and read 4875 times:

Quoting Cjpark (Thread starter):
Texas Senator Hutchinson

Just a quick little correction: it's Kay Bay Hutchison. Senator Hutchinson is from Kansas, I think. Kay Bay also has a slight conflict of interest, as her husband works for the DFW Airport bond committee.

However, I agree that it would be better to settle it locally. I don't think that'll happen, though. We shall see. Expect to see Sen. Frist (TN), Sen. Allard (CO), Sen. McCain (AZ), Sens. Ensign and Reid (NV), and Sen. Hagel (NE) to add amendments to exempt their states from the Wright Amendment during the current Congressional session.

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlineTravelin man From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3489 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 5 months 21 hours ago) and read 4845 times:

Quoting Texan (Reply 3):
Expect to see Sen. Frist (TN), Sen. Allard (CO), Sen. McCain (AZ), Sens. Ensign and Reid (NV), and Sen. Hagel (NE) to add amendments to exempt their states from the Wright Amendment during the current Congressional session.

I hope Senator Feinstein (CA) can be added to that list....


User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 24
Reply 5, posted (8 years 5 months 21 hours ago) and read 4834 times:

OK, I'll bite. Now..... someone just waved their magic wand and Love is closed to airline traffic effective Jan 1st 2008(your not going to close it overnight). Herb and the gang goes where...DFW?
Where at DFW? They aren't a couple of dozen gates available to Southwest or any carrier for that matter.

Who pays for the move..the new facilities...hangers etc?

You are bright, Commavia and lean toward the finance side of airlines more then fleet makeup or routes like a lot of people at A-net.
I really would like to hear your comments on Southwest IF you got your way and Love shuts down to commercial traffic.
safe...oh, and you were right again..you're not my son.

 smile 



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineTexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4273 posts, RR: 52
Reply 6, posted (8 years 5 months 20 hours ago) and read 4818 times:

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 8):
OK, I'll bite. Now..... someone just waved their magic wand and Love is closed to airline traffic effective Jan 1st 2008(your not going to close it overnight). Herb and the gang goes where...DFW?
Where at DFW?

Decreased schedule, intrastate frequencies dumped. 600 daily GA flights try to find new places to fly. ADS has one runway and is heavily used. It cannot handle all the flights. DFW has no fully staffed GA area. General Aviation at DFW does not have line guys available at all times, as they are contracted with the airlines. RBD? Dallas Executive? You've gotta be joking. What happens with the facility? The job loss? Where do the executives fly into? Not a good idea to shut down DAL.

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 8):
Who pays for the move..the new facilities...hangers etc?

Didn't you know AA had volunteered to pay for it out of the genorous nature of their own heart?  Silly

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlineCjpark From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1248 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (8 years 5 months 19 hours ago) and read 4762 times:

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 5):
OK, I'll bite. Now..... someone just waved their magic wand and Love is closed to airline traffic effective Jan 1st 2008(your not going to close it overnight). Herb and the gang goes where...DFW?
Where at DFW? They aren't a couple of dozen gates available to Southwest or any carrier for that matter.

Who pays for the move..the new facilities...hangers etc?

First of all no one but WN should be responsible for the decision to build infrastucture at an airport they knew was limited by law. It was a bad business decision on their part. There are 22 un used gates at DFW ready for any takers. DFW has even offered free rent and money to any airline who wants to move in and take over the gates.

You are bright, Commavia and lean toward the finance side of airlines more then fleet makeup or routes like a lot of people at A-net.
I really would like to hear your comments on Southwest IF you got your way and Love shuts down to commercial traffic.
safe...oh, and you were right again..you're not my son.

First of all no one but WN should be responsible for the decision to build infrastucture at an airport they knew was limited by law. It was a bad business decision on their part. There are 22 un used gates at DFW ready for any takers. DFW has even offered free rent and money to any airline who wants to move in and take over the gates.

Quoting Texan (Reply 6):
Decreased schedule, intrastate frequencies dumped. 600 daily GA flights try to find new places to fly. ADS has one runway and is heavily used. It cannot handle all the flights. DFW has no fully staffed GA area. General Aviation at DFW does not have line guys available at all times, as they are contracted with the airlines. RBD? Dallas Executive? You've gotta be joking. What happens with the facility? The job loss? Where do the executives fly into? Not a good idea to shut down DAL.

The facility gets torn down and the land is sold by the City for redevelopement. I am pretty sure that the GA will find a place to go to. That is not a problem worth worrying about.



"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
User currently offlineTexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4273 posts, RR: 52
Reply 8, posted (8 years 5 months 18 hours ago) and read 4728 times:

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 7):
The facility gets torn down and the land is sold by the City for redevelopement. I am pretty sure that the GA will find a place to go to. That is not a problem worth worrying about.

If we were talking C172s, then you are right. They'll use Mesquite, Arlington, etc. But, DAL is more than 80% jet traffic. They are the higher grossing customers, the ones who spend more money in the immediate area, the ones who pay premiums. In addition, they buy fuel and lots of it. DAL does not charge a landing fee for GA aircraft, but there is a fuel flowage fee. That is a few million dollars per year in lost revenue for the city just in fuel flowage fees. There will be less discretionary spending in Dallas and more in Addison, Irving, and Grapevine, losing the city millions more dollars. It'd be a big hit to the city and our revenues. Closing DAL is an idiotic idea that will not occur anytime in the near future.

So, I disagree with your premise that GA aircraft are not worth worrying about.

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 21
Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 months 18 hours ago) and read 4722 times:

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 7):
DFW has even offered free rent and money to any airline who wants to move in and take over the gates.

As long as they fly to destinations approved by DFW....oh boy.

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 7):
I am pretty sure that the GA will find a place to go to. That is not a problem worth worrying about.

How do you figure?
I'm sure all those corporate types are going to love being shipped off to the already crowded Addison or inconvenient Red Bird.

Why is it SO important for Love to close?, when Tarrant County gets to keep Alliance, Meacham, and the majority of DFW?
Fair?

I will tell y'all right now, leaving it up to the locals to decide.... is what led to whole nonsense in the first place.
Duh. FAA mandate of 1966, "get your acts together or no more funding for either of you!" DFW airport is born.
End of Problem.
Right.
And my car runs on liquid chesse.

Love needs to stay open, and if it is open, Southwest is allowed in.

What does Dallas get in return for shutting down Love Field? The patent for cars that run on liquid cheese?

Hutchison has just pulled a fast one, or a STALL one....cause she knows dang well Congress is willing to act, NOW. Enter the gentleman from Tennessee.

This thing could be done and gone in a matter of months.

BUT! Hold on.
She also knows this is a 50 year old problem, so big, it is actually grown larger than the area itself. O'Kay Bailey is not a dumby, it is her plan for Dallas and Tarrant counties to slog this out indefinitely....effectively handing her good buddies DFW, and their good buddies AA, a victory...for now.

They are going to set a deadline....but not now, in a few months.
WTF? That's motivation?

This is horse crap people.



Delete this User
User currently offlineCjpark From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1248 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (8 years 5 months 18 hours ago) and read 4697 times:

Quoting Stirling (Reply 9):
Why is it SO important for Love to close?, when Tarrant County gets to keep Alliance, Meacham, and the majority of DFW?
Fair?

Because it is probably the only way to settle this once and for all.

Quoting Stirling (Reply 9):
How do you figure?
I'm sure all those corporate types are going to love being shipped off to the already crowded Addison or inconvenient Red Bird.

You obviously have not thought this through have you. Open up Love to more commercial flights (the master plan is meaningless) and the GA will get pushed out anyway. Six one way half a dozen the other.



"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
User currently offlineSATX From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2840 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 months 18 hours ago) and read 4697 times:

Quoting Texan (Reply 3):
Just a quick little correction: it's Kay Bay Hutchison.

Just a quick correction: It's Kay Bailey Hutchison. I should know, I've written her maybe one hundred times by now.



Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
User currently offlineTexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4273 posts, RR: 52
Reply 12, posted (8 years 5 months 18 hours ago) and read 4684 times:

Quoting SATX (Reply 11):
Just a quick correction: It's Kay Bailey Hutchison.

I know, I call her Kay Bay because it's shorter  Smile And I really don't like her.

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlineSATX From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2840 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (8 years 5 months 18 hours ago) and read 4667 times:

Quoting Texan (Reply 12):
And I really don't like her.

Me neither. We've agreed on exactly one issue out of perhaps one hundred. The woman either doesn't get it or simply doesn't care to place her cushy job in any jeopardy just to do the right thing. She's bought, signed, and delivered. At least, that's my view of her.



Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
User currently offlineJonnyGT From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 242 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (8 years 5 months 17 hours ago) and read 4662 times:

Kay Bailey Hutchison's posturing is pointless. Many senators are up for re-election this year, and I know for a fact many voters (Nebraska, specifically) are screaming for Wright's removal.
It's an easy move and would be looked upon as a significant positive in the eyes of constituents.

Look for Arizona, Nebraska, Tennessee, Nevada and hopefully California to be removed from the Wright Amendment this year.

[Edited 2006-03-03 04:29:05]

[Edited 2006-03-03 04:30:23]

User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12903 posts, RR: 100
Reply 15, posted (8 years 5 months 17 hours ago) and read 4656 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

First,
What advantage is there to any party to stop working all political solutions? Since the other side won't stop, both sides should keep working the national if they really are looking out after their own interests.

Quoting Texan (Reply 3):
Expect to see Sen. Frist (TN), Sen. Allard (CO), Sen. McCain (AZ), Sens. Ensign and Reid (NV), and Sen. Hagel (NE) to add amendments to exempt their states from the Wright Amendment during the current Congressional session.

Any state whos senator doesn't keep pusuing their best interests is being foolish. I agree with most of your list, but wonder if Sen. Allard of CO would really pick WN over UA/F9? Do you know something I don't?

Also, I expect someone to propose legislation with their amendment amending the Wright amendment to allow for transfers/hubbing at any DAL connected airport. Otherwise, what's the point of AZ and NV adding their states to exempt status?

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 4):
I hope Senator Feinstein (CA) can be added to that list....

A CA senator help business? I could only wish!

FL would be much more likely than CA.

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 7):
DFW has even offered free rent and money to any airline who wants to move in and take over the gates.

Any airline who effectively stepped in and within one year replaced DL. Even WN doesn't expand *that* fast!

Quoting Stirling (Reply 9):
They are going to set a deadline....but not now, in a few months.

I'd accept it much more if there was a deadline and if there was an agreed agenda. Until you have both, this is a stalling tactic to maintain the status quo. If you support the status quo, obviously you'll support a delaying tactic.

As I've posted before, I expect that WN *will* move their HDQ if within 24 months there isn't a compromise to Wright (or repeal) that they are happy with. Note: I don't think that will happen, but it will if Wright remains in force as it is today (or only a few more states are added sans transer through ticket rights).

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineJonnyGT From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 242 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (8 years 5 months 17 hours ago) and read 4651 times:

If Southwest actually goes through with their threatened move, thousands of Dallas employees as well as the populace at large will want to taste Laura Miller's blood.

It's not simply that we enjoy their flights, but we love Southwest as a company and as a part of Dallas history.

Southwest is one of the largest taxpayers in Dallas and the city literally cannot afford to lose them.


User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 21
Reply 17, posted (8 years 5 months 17 hours ago) and read 4631 times:

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 10):
(the master plan is meaningless)

According to whom?

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 10):
GA will get pushed out anyway

And again, where are they going to go?



Delete this User
User currently offlineSATX From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2840 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (8 years 5 months 17 hours ago) and read 4630 times:

Quoting JonnyGT (Reply 16):
Southwest is one of the largest taxpayers in Dallas and the city literally cannot afford to lose them.

Dallas doesn't need WN's HDQ, and WN's HDQ doesn't need Dallas. They're both big enough to leave the other one behind. In fact, I think the WA hurts Dallas residents and businesses much more than losing WN's HDQ would. If I lived in Dallas I would try my best to avoid flying AA. As it is I fly them less and less thanks to their LRTC and questionable business tactics. WN isn't the perfect business and they get overbearing as well sometimes, but I still think AA is far worse.



Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
User currently offlineN200WN From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 784 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (8 years 5 months 16 hours ago) and read 4610 times:

Everyone's pushing for a "local solution" and yet it's a federal law that's causing the problem. Kay Bailey sucks.

If there is a compromise to the W/A I would hope that WN fights for two things: 1) thru ticketing and to all their destinations nationwide, and 2) be allowed to operate nonstop to some of their key "mega stations" such as LAS, PHX, MDW, and BWI. Either set the destinations in writing or give WN the option of choosing, lets say ten, new nonstop destinations outside of the currrent W/A perimeter.


User currently offlineJustPlaneNutz From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 518 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (8 years 5 months 11 hours ago) and read 4560 times:

This should not be a unique federal issue (any more than any other AIP issue)--the CAB's original mandate, WN's federal suits and Wright's amendment made it one. The solution is to return DAL to the status of every other airport in the country. Here's how:

1) DALLAS GETS A ONE-YEAR PASS TO CLOSE DAL -- All it has to do is send the FAA a letter and whatever regulatory hurdles exist are waived (and Wright would be repealed immediately). If it can't stand the noise, pollution or competion with DFW, then close it.

2) PHASE OUT WRIGHT -- Thru ticketing immediately to address the competitive vacuum left by Delta, add TN,CO,AZ and NV in one year, everywhere in 2 years.

Then that's it. Send the rest of the country a postcard and let us know how it works out. As 7E7 has pointed out, avenues would still exist for Dallas to close/restrict DAL, they'd just have to be pursued in regular order with the FAA.

I'll admit that I believe Dallas (and by that I mean the community, not just leadership) would never close DAL--I think that ship sailed a long time ago and that Dallas simply changed its mind about the issue as the times changed.


User currently offlineTxAgKuwait From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1803 posts, RR: 43
Reply 21, posted (8 years 5 months 10 hours ago) and read 4550 times:

>>I'll admit that I believe Dallas (and by that I mean the community, not just leadership) would never close DAL--I think that ship sailed a long time ago and that Dallas simply changed its mind about the issue as the times changed.<<

Neither Dallas nor Fort Worth had any intention of closing Love Field (or, in the case of Fort Worth, Meacham Field)....what they intended to do was close them to commercial traffic IF LEGALLY PERMISSIBLE.

As Judge William Mack Taylor, the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals in New Orleans, and the Supreme Court pointed out after the fact, it ws not permissible.

My view is that Dallas should have a clear conscience - hey, Fort Wortrh, we tried...no can do. And then Dallas should proceed to act in a way that benefits the citizens of Dallas.

That's a key point. The citizens of Dallas. That does not necessarily mean the citizens of Fort Worth, Arlington, Hursteulessbedford, or White Settlement.

Every time I see the name of that town White Settlement I think of the play/film "A Raisin In The Sun." I'm not quite sure why. At any rate, I digress.

The citizens of Dallas are probably better served with an active, vibrant Love Field.

Giving Fort Worth or any other town a say in what goes on at Love Field strikes me as giving Rick Perry a say so in the governance of Rhode Island or giving Fidel Castro power to manage the affairs of the United States.

I'm not sure about you but I'm not quite ready to relinquish our sovereignty to some Godless Commie.

At any rate, it's time for Mayor Laura Miller to earn her pay. She was elected by the city of Dallas...not the city of Fort Worth or any place else.

You know, this is almost as interesting as the old TV game show with Groucho Marx (no relation to Karl, since we had been talking about Godless Commies). That show was called "You Bet Your Life." In this case, the Mayor gets to decide whether she keeps Southwest Airlines, with their 5000 some odd jobs in Dallas along with all the property taxes they pay on the aircraft domiciled there - or - she makes Fort Worth and Phoenix both very happy. That's it in a nutshell.

The options -

1. Total immediate (or phased over several years) elimination of Wright with immediate okay to thru ticketing

2. A 1500 mile perimeter rule or throwing in a few more states, coupled with immediate okay to thru ticketing

3. The status quo

4. Trying to legislatively oust Southwest from Love Field and try to circumvent the court ruling (however, no city or state law will do this, it will have to be a federal law, and this might be tough to do)

5. Close Love Field completely

If you are the Mayor of Dallas, either 4 or 5 will cause you to go down in history as the Mayor that lost the Dallas Cowboys, lost the Texas - OU weekend (probable), lost the headquarters of the nation's most successful air carrier and the 5th largest taxpayer in the city of Dallas. Not a great legacy.


User currently offlineJustPlaneNutz From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 518 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (8 years 5 months 10 hours ago) and read 4543 times:

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 21):
Neither Dallas nor Fort Worth had any intention of closing Love Field (or, in the case of Fort Worth, Meacham Field)....what they intended to do was close them to commercial traffic IF LEGALLY PERMISSIBLE.

I agree--moving all commercial service to DFW is where I meant Dallas had changed its mind. I would also stipulate that the letter to the FAA closing DAL come only from its owner -- the City of Dallas.


User currently offlineTexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4273 posts, RR: 52
Reply 23, posted (8 years 5 months 10 hours ago) and read 4542 times:

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 15):
Any state whos senator doesn't keep pusuing their best interests is being foolish. I agree with most of your list, but wonder if Sen. Allard of CO would really pick WN over UA/F9? Do you know something I don't?

WN didn't just enter DEN to expand their market presence in the Rockies Wink Part of the deal is for the Colorado delegation to support the repeal of Wright. From what I understand, Senator Allard has been their main contact on this front.

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 5 months 9 hours ago) and read 4537 times:

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 21):
If you are the Mayor of Dallas, either 4 or 5 will cause you to go down in history as the Mayor that lost the Dallas Cowboys, lost the Texas - OU weekend (probable), lost the headquarters of the nation's most successful air carrier and the 5th largest taxpayer in the city of Dallas. Not a great legacy.

Not only that, but from the Law of Unintended Consequences Department, we'd also then have a situation where her actions would send a message that Dallas really wasn't all that great a place to relocate/expand a business in. Those effects extend past just Southwest Airlines itself.


25 TxAgKuwait : >>I agree--moving all commercial service to DFW is where I meant Dallas had changed its mind. I would also stipulate that the letter to the FAA closin
26 Justplanenutz : But would they take such measures today? I think not, and that's where the "changed minds" comes into play.
27 Boeing7E7 : Because you bit and obviously want a cat fight, I'll cool your jets: Who says they need a couple dozen? 18 or so won't do for now? Who would pay to mo
28 Post contains images Isitsafenow : The dif is they already fly in and out of PHX. The scenario is Southwest WILL NOT fly in and out of DAL...its closed to commercial traffic. Companies
29 Texan : The City of Phoenix. They would also give them large tax breaks. Same way Ft. Worth helped attract AA. Currently 14. Texan
30 Boeing7E7 : Same can be done at DFW, just pointing out the comparison with: If the DFW Authority had half a brain, they'd propose it.
31 Sllevin : Part of the law of unintended consequences in lifting Wright (and thus adding lots of flights to DAL) is that it totally feeds the NIMBYs. "Give an in
32 Sllevin : Part of the law of unintended consequences in lifting Wright (and thus adding lots of flights to DAL) is that it totally feeds the NIMBYs. "Give an in
33 Cjpark : They would be hard pressed to beat existing tax breaks that Dallas has all ready given WN. Think about it WN has a 10 Billion dollar fleet of aircraf
34 DALNeighbor : Dallas collects a grand total of $0 from AA. Seems like at face value, WN is worth about $150000000 more than AA to Dallas. Drop a new $250 million d
35 Cjpark : Dallas should be collecting a hell of a lot more from WN in taxes. Not gonna happen. But you are allowed to dream. Why not keep Wright and send WN to
36 Stirling : Okie Dokie. Average Daily NON-Commercial Activity (A take-off or landing) DAL-452 ADS-405 TKI-327 RDB-255 -------- AFW-291 FTW-255 (DFW-18 out of 196
37 Tornado82 : A few million which has to, by FEDERAL LAW, get pumped right back into DAL. The city is NOT ALLOWED to take airport revenue for non-airport usage. If
38 Ckfred : This is a little off the subject, but if the WA was repealed in full, how many addtional flights could WN add at DAL? If WN wanted to start service to
39 Tornado82 : Not to give the frequencies they will want/need, AND appease the 250 Limit. And don't forget they'll also owe BNA and OMA flights from backdoor polit
40 Tornado82 : There are more open gates at DFW than there are gates being used by WN at DAL currently.
41 Post contains images OPNLguy : Tornado, You seem to be revving above your max RPMs.... And now you're casting Herb, Colleen, and Gary as the E-vil Corporate Robber-Barons? Pluh-eze
42 Cjpark : Yes that is a fair charactarization. The region has been trying to get WN to play in our chosen airport for 30 years. But WN always seems to run to i
43 Post contains images Texan : It is part of doing business, whether it is AA, WN, UA, DL, whomever. See, I understand why AA is fighting the repeal of the Wright Amendment. It mak
44 Incitatus : That begs a question. If the services from Dallas Love to Kansas City and St. Louis on Southwest lose money, would Southwest keep them just to make a
45 Texan : If they lost money, probably not. Business sense would dictate cutting at least the frequency on the routes until they reached profitable levels. Tex
46 Incitatus : I don't understand your fixation with the city of Dallas. It's about 20% of the population of the Dallas metro area. It's the most violent, corrupt,
47 Stirling : That is American's modus operandi. And you base this theory on what, historical precedent? Or just empty hysteria? I am confused. One minute we hear
48 Post contains images Isitsafenow : [quote=Stirling,reply=47]That is American's modus operandi.[/quote You're good.....I like that. Matter of fact, I liked all of post 47. safe
49 Tornado82 : What's wrong OPNL, no valid points left so you start making analogies with high-revving engines? I love it, when all else fails, spin up some weird a
50 Apodino : Putting the wright amendment aside some people have suggested closing DAL completely as a way to settle this. However, after thinking about this for a
51 Tornado82 : Nothing really happened. Any kind of substantial biz jet was range-limited by the sub-4000' runway there and was already using MDW. It would cost Sou
52 Post contains images OPNLguy : It appeared from your previous message that you were pretty well wound-up, hence my comments... I've got plenty of valid points (thank you), not that
53 Tornado82 : Simple math OPNL... If DAL is to be limited to 250, and other airlines are going to be allowed their fair share of 250... you guys just can't go addi
54 Steeler83 : I actually stated that in another post, and someone responded by essentially saying that I was crazy for saying that. I said that if they go into DFW
55 OPNLguy : Yes, that's true, but I've attempted to explain how SWA would try to mitigate that via optimization of the schedule, but you apparently don't want to
56 Tornado82 : Don't worry, there's no way in hell I'd ever put a financial interest in the doings of anything involving Texas, politicians, and SWA. The only peopl
57 OPNLguy : I just have to ask this, but as an outsider, how do you know what is, or what isn't in SWA's business plan? If you want to state that your opinion th
58 Steeler83 : Uhh... okay... Now that just brings up another question... What IS their business plan??? I consider myself to be a fan of Southwest. I have already
59 Tornado82 : It's well publicized they avoid congested (PHL) or expensive (DEN) airports. AND, that's their excuse for DFW as well.
60 Texan : Are you implying I'm employed by WN? Cool! When did this happen? Alright, I'll meet y'all up on the roof of the building next Friday (if y'all still
61 Post contains images OPNLguy : Gee, that seems like the media's version, and we all know how accurate they can be. More assumptions... So, I take it then that you haven't been to t
62 Tornado82 : No to be honest I'd rather work at Walmart, than move to Texas and work for Walmart Air. I'm a Great Lakes region boy at heart.
63 DALNeighbor : It's not free and it doesn't make sense. WN serves 9 local passengers for every 10 it puts on its planes at DAL. AA serves 3 local passengers for eve
64 Post contains images Atrude777 : HEY DON'T FORGET ABOUT ME! I am coming down March 31st!!
65 Texan : PHL and DEN are markets in which WN had no previous presence. They already have a presence in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area, at a secondary airport. Ther
66 Post contains images Tornado82 : You shouldn't assume, you make an of U and ME... and you've done a good enough job at that. However, Midway is necessary because ORD is OVER capacity
67 Steeler83 : Anyone know what these factors look like up in the Windy City? I am sure that WN's numbers are fairly close to these, but it's AA's that I am not sur
68 Cjpark : DAL offers WN a uncluttered airport with ultra low costs. Do you honestly think that the rest of the airlines are just going to surrender that advant
69 DALNeighbor : So you are conceding the point that opening PHL and DEN are totally different than moving to DFW. A good example would be the large hangar and adjoin
70 Tornado82 : Other than the maintenance facility, none of that other stuff would have to move to DFW. If you fly the pilot coming for sim training to DFW, it won'
71 Atrude777 : Bad decision, wow it must really be a bad decision that it made them money for the last 35 freaking years. Yep bad decision! So why can't AA move ove
72 Post contains images Incitatus : Come on. Southwest does not serve Asia, Europe and Latin America. Nor does it intend to even if the W.A. is gone. American has about 1000 departures
73 Post contains images Texan : 9. Exxon bases their entire corporate fleet at DAL TXU bases their planes at DAL. Dean Foods, Neuhoff Oil and Gas, about a dozen more energy companie
74 Post contains links and images Texan : AA is responsible for their poor business decisions driving them to the brink of bankruptcy. They are trying to pin it on the WA. And operating out o
75 Post contains links Cjpark : Quoting DALNeighbor (Reply 69): Quoting Cjpark (Reply 68): Once again no one but WN is responsible for the bad business decision they made to stay at
76 Tornado82 : Until you've been proven as an omniscient expert, which you're far from being, your attitude is getting a little old.
77 OPNLguy : Thanks; I've been wondering whose that is... Are you speaking from your Meteorology/Geography experience, or your airline executive experience? You m
78 Tornado82 : There ya go again trying to rip on my field of study. Thanks, appreciated.
79 Cjpark : So that is why they can't move to DFW they can't afford to pay a driver and maintain their business plan.
80 Post contains images Incitatus : Yawn... Have you traveled on corporate jets? Sorry to burst your bubble but I have plenty of times. It's not like you are telling. Almost always ther
81 OPNLguy : Sorry, you've got your wires crossed. You obviously have Meteorology/Geography experience (which I'm not questioning), it's your airline experience (
82 Post contains images Texan : There is actually quite a bit of hangar space at DAL. There are 7 FBOs on the field, each with their own set of hangars. There are multiple private h
83 Steeler83 : Would PIT be in the same boat as these two, despite the fact that Dallas is one of the top ten business markets for PIT business travelers... I read
84 Tornado82 : That's just because they're kissing WN's rear. Think about it, if AA, with hundreds of connecting opportunities dropped us to CR7's, why is WN going
85 Apodino : You are not listening to my arguement. I have not denied that the duopoly exists, and I have stated quite clearly that as long as the status quo is m
86 Luvfa : I still believe that the compromise will result in: 1. The base of the Wright will stay in place with the same limitaions N/S flights from DAL to TX,
87 Post contains links OPNLguy : Mitch Schnurman's latest... http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/business/...nists/mitch_schnurman/14024206.htm
88 Cjpark : They all ready control 90% if the traffic in the North Texas region. Whether or not they are at the same airport or on different airfields is a matte
89 Apodino : Nice try Cj. Now let me ask you this. Is it better for the region to have AA consolidated at one facility, scaring all the other airlines away from D
90 DALNeighbor : Apodino, your objective of more competition and greater service is not the same as Cj's. CJ wants AA to maintain 1000+ flights and a vast network of
91 Tornado82 : So why should AA be the sacrificial lamb for the good of the Metroplex? Is Continental "fighting a two front war" at IAH and HOU? Is USAirways (more
92 Cjpark : There you go again except now you are making up opinions for other people. What we want is WN at DFW to compete with AA. We also want DAL closed to c
93 DALNeighbor : So you are telling me that the protection of AA's network is not your first priority? How does it serve the public's best interest to close secondary
94 Cjpark : Is that how WN got those ultra low landing fees then? Does the phrase Regional Planning mean anything to you?
95 Texan : AA will still maintain their network from DFW. You are right. CO is not fighting a two front war at IAH and HOU. Yet they are still doing just fine,
96 Tornado82 : ORD: Yes. Case in point, any United fares where they compete with WN at MDW. PIT-ORD is sub $100 now, as is PHL, etc.
97 SCCutler : Well, Inc, while your question (1) has aged a bit, and (2) was not directed at me; I'll still offer an answer for consideration: My fixation is that
98 Incitatus : Southwest doesn't know that. Please help the effort to let them know. What you wrote is all nice but you don't speak for Southwest. Southwest is not
99 Texan : WN has never said they want the master plan lifted. In fact, they have stated on multiple ocassions that the master plan limiting flights should rema
100 Incitatus : That's the current Southwest story. Lift the W.A. and it will be business as usual, just a few more flights and we'll not push beyond the master plan
101 Stirling : Seious. You are so wrong, For the twelvth time General. Your point might hold water if all airlines operated as hub and spoke, but as we all know, so
102 TxAgKuwait : >>What we want is WN at DFW to compete with AA. We also want DAL closed to commercial traffic or closed out right to end this WA fight forever. Come t
103 Texan : Space availability. It costs a pretty good amount of money to build a customs area for air carriers; it takes a pretty decent amount of room to house
104 N1120A : Um, this is an issue that involves interstate commerce, over which which local authorities have no jurisdiction to regulate.
105 Tornado82 : It happens... every time PHL/LGA/DCA, or ORD goes into a ground stop and you can't make your connections there on a route PIT used to have direct ser
106 Cjpark : What you claim to be for competition in the market place but want special conditions met for WN to be able to compete? Sounds like you are not so fre
107 TxAgKuwait : >>I wonder if it was any airline but WN would you be in favor of secondary airports or would that suddenly turn into an unfair advantage for the other
108 Tornado82 : If Southwest wanted anywhere near the NYC mess, they'd be in much better place than Islip... like at least Newark... and for that matter alot of airl
109 Texan : DFW Airport is solely responsible for the bonds they issue. Moreover, are you claiming that because an airport board or city overspends for unneeded
110 Texan : Look for them to land in the New York City area in the relatively near future (within 2-3 years). Texan
111 Post contains images OPNLguy : Why does he have to "prove" anything? Southwest doesn't have to be "actively pursuing" DCA/LGA for it to serve as a situational example. I'm amazed a
112 Apodino : I would be personally. I think BED should be opened to commercial traffic myself to help ease BOS and to give the high yield customers on 128 a bette
113 Tornado82 : And Governor Rendell. US was more than willing to stay in PIT, and make PHL a "focus city" instead because of the capacity/infrastructure issues of t
114 Texan : How would opening up DAL to appoximately 145 more daily flights threaten to derail an aiport that has an average of 1,000 daily flights, the overwhel
115 Apodino : I think I made my arguement in the wrong way. AA shouldn't have to be the sacrificial lamb, and if they are smart they won't be. That being said, the
116 Tornado82 : Because all the other competing airlines are going to DFW, not DAL with the insanely LOW costs. Bring WN to DFW, or bring DAL's rates in line with DF
117 Texan : Fair enough. But does this also mean that DFW should be forced to cancel the lower rates and fees AA pays at DFW for being the dominant carrier? AA's
118 Cjpark : That is funny I am a citizen of Dallas and I am against lifting Wright. You should try not to make generalized statments of fact without proof. I als
119 Post contains images Texan : Funny, I too am a citizen of Dallas and know many other people who are in favor of repealing Wright It could. It could also be that they do not perce
120 Cjpark : And you know for a fact that AA's costs are lower at DFW than say your airline which ever one it is.
121 Incitatus : No, you are so wrong. Not all markets are served nonstop so connections arise naturally. Connections aren't created because of hubs, they are created
122 Post contains images Atrude777 : Which suits me JUST fine!
123 Texan : Because WN does not serve any cities where other airlines have hubs or where other carriers operate... Texan (Pssstttt...in case you thought I was be
124 Incitatus : That's actually an excellent argument. Southwest is an airline like any other and it looks for ways to lock in a profitable market and extend their c
125 Texan : No, I do not speak for WN. I do know that they have been studying the New York City airports. They have stated they want to enter the New York market
126 TxAgKuwait : A just released scientific poll done by Public Opinion Strategies of Arlington, Virginia, found that North Texans favored repeal of the Wright Amendme
127 SPREE34 : There's that pesky Public group, probably a few Customers in there as well. The replies to this should push the thread replies to over 200 by, ohhh l
128 DALNeighbor : Why wouldn't people near an airport want access to that airport? Before you pull out the noise and traffic card, those people didn't seem to have any
129 Incitatus : Ask residents around Love Field. Ask residents around the El Toro airbase in CA. Ask residents around White Plains HPN. Ask residents around LAX. Ask
130 Tornado82 : Then why did your "Signature" used to say "DAL Neighbors want restrictions on number of flights not number of destinations" if you weren't worried ab
131 Post contains images ExFATboy : I think you're over-worried about this, as the combination of fiscal reality and NIMBYs will limit this growth. We may see a few more battles like th
132 Stirling : Who said anything about ATC? Lets try this again. The de-hubbing of Pittsburgh has not made any one city completely inaccessible. Connections might n
133 Texan : Hi there! Could I have more flights out of DAL, please? Correct again! The people who bought the houses near the airport had an expectation that ther
134 Tornado82 : For this year, then another thing that Southwest was supportive or at least "passionately neutral" of will become something they are vehemently again
135 Incitatus : Really? No profits = no flights. Case closed. Do I need to repeat and expand the list? I have one more example. Old Milan Linate. Milan always suffer
136 Post contains images Incitatus : I was hesitating to tell this story which DALneighbor keeps reminding me, but there we go. (Story break starts) In 1990 there was a poll in Brazil ab
137 Texan : Why? The cap on number of flights more than adequately fills their needs, even as a major focus city. Only one destination, LAS which is a humongous
138 Texan : The Dallas Love Field Master Plan has stated for many many years that commercial flights at DAL will be limited to 250 daily. This is not something W
139 Tornado82 : Yeah, Southwest's major focus city. But once again Southwest, no matter what you nor they think, does NOT own DAL and do not have any say in what oth
140 Texan : 112, and we both agreed that WN would likely be cutting some regional service. Why would jetBlue want to compete directly against WN when so far the
141 Post contains links DALNeighbor : The Master Plan, unanimously approved by the neighborhood groups, the airlines, the city of Dallas, and the fixed based operators all agreed 250 comm
142 Tornado82 : The 250 limit in the Master Plan isn't worth the paper its written on, legally.
143 Post contains images OPNLguy : So, you're a lawyer now too?
144 Post contains images Texan : The Master Plan is a legally enforcable plan. WN can sue to have it tossed out if they would like, but the courts have ruled time and time again that
145 Post contains links OPNLguy : It appears the recently announced "truce" until October 1st might not be as initially mentioned... http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/14037543.htm
146 Tornado82 : Not unless DAL is part of an authority with other airports. The same reason DAL couldn't be closed to comm. traffic without being in an authority tha
147 Texan : LGB is not a part of an authority with other airports, yet the courts have held fast that they have the right to cap the number of commercial flights
148 Post contains links Texan : From The Dallas Morning News: Eric Torbenson and Suzanne Marta on the Wright amendment, today at 11:30 a.m. Send advance questions to chat@dallasnews.
149 Texan : Chat is finished. If anyone wants a transcript of it, it should be available on dallasnews.com or if not, send me an email through my address in the p
150 Post contains links OPNLguy : Looks like Southwest doth protest (and rightly so) to the October 1st "truce" deadline... http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...ries/030806dnbuswrigh
151 Stirling : Except in the case of AA. Very public statements indicate they will operate into Love Field at a loss. No profits = flights. Case still open. America
152 Post contains links and images Boeing7E7 : Shocking!!!!!!!! Another link: http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/060307/datu027.html?.v=48 Maybe one paragraph should read: Finally, the subject of a regio
153 Tornado82 : Way to run a thread off topic with factual, but outdated information about demographics of Pittsburgh... but what do you expect when ANOTHER Californ
154 Cjpark : Never say never. And here you are telling us how my City and region should allow one company to upset the planning and investment that went into buil
155 Apodino : WN could sue, but they have said they support the master plan, it is AA who has threatened to sue to have it tossed out if wright is repealed. How ha
156 HPLASOps : I've been on vacation for a few days, so forgive me for quoting from the middle of the thread, but I felt compelled to point out this one: I don't thi
157 Texan : Correct. They are at the airport that is closer, in driving mileage, to downtown San Fran, OAK, as well as the one some 40 miles away in SJC. But far
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