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SQ Vs AC On The LAX-SYD Route  
User currently offlineAC330 From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 337 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 8502 times:

I know Singapore Airlines was recently denied access to the Sydney - Los Angeles route, which makes me wonder...Air Canada just announced that in 2007 they will start YYZ-LAX-SYD service. Why is AC allowed with no trouble to launch this route?? Does this have something to do with the Open Skies agreement between Canada and the US??

AC330

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline9252fly From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1397 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 8438 times:

There is a thread on this topic which makes reference to AC 5th freedom rights. The title is,"AC announces YYZ-LAX-SYD". You ought to find your questions answered there.

User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 2, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 8291 times:

AC vs. SQ should be decided by the market, not by governments.

User currently offlineJuventus From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2835 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 8182 times:

I wonder that as well. Qantas viewed Singapore as a huge threat, but they don't seem to care about Air Canada. WHY???????? I'm sure they rather not have AC on the route, but they don't seem bother that much. SQ plans to keep on trying, game is not over.

User currently offlineJuventus From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2835 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 8157 times:

Another question. Why is everyone so focused on LAX-SYD? Why not SFO-SYD?

User currently offlineTinkerBelle From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 8154 times:

Quoting AC330 (Thread starter):
Why is AC allowed with no trouble to launch this route??



Quoting Juventus (Reply 3):
WHY????????

Well, SQ probably doesn't think AC will be a huge threat and seeing AC's aircraft from the outside today, I don't blame them  duck 


User currently offlineSunriseValley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 5055 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 8127 times:

My reading of the Canada- Aus. bi-lateral agreement allows Canada 5th-Freedom rights through SFO.
I assume therefore that this will need to be re-negotiated to substitute LAX for SFO.
Read it for yourselves at
http://www.cta-otc.gc.ca/air-aerien/agreements/html/australia_e.html


User currently offlineEnviroTO From Canada, joined Aug 2004, 828 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 8059 times:

I don't read it that way. It says the allowed intermediate points are Fiji, Tahiti, Honolulu, San Francisco, a point to be agreed. So the one point to be agreed needs to be set to LAX and SFO would still be permitted regardless. It probably would be an easy sell between Canada and Austrailia so have that intermediate point selected as LAX because of the equal benefit to Qantas. If Qantas is to run a YYZ route they are most likely to fly via LAX as well.

User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9159 posts, RR: 76
Reply 8, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 8030 times:

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 7):
If Qantas is to run a YYZ route they are most likely to fly via LAX as well.

Think QF used to be via HNL in a 763ER.

Both have been doing code share along the SYD-LAX-YVR route.

Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 6):
I assume therefore that this will need to be re-negotiated to substitute LAX for SFO.

My reading is "Points to be named by either Contracting Party may be changed on 6 months notice given to the other Contracting Party.", just notification, no apparent need for negotiation.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineAccargo From Canada, joined Sep 2004, 610 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 8030 times:

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 5):
Well, SQ probably doesn't think AC will be a huge threat and seeing AC's aircraft from the outside today, I don't blame them

But AC will not be using the acft you saw today now will it? It will be using brand new 777-200LR with J (business) class Pods (think Virgin and Air NZ) and AVOD in every seat.

AC will not be competing against SQ on the LAX-SYD route, it will be competing with QF, UA and NZ. It's Y and J products will compete just fine with them.


User currently offlineTinkerBelle From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 8010 times:

Quoting Accargo (Reply 9):
But AC will not be using the acft you saw today now will it? It will be using brand new 777-200LR with J (business) class Pods (think Virgin and Air NZ) and AVOD in every seat.

Well, I personally would care less coz I know the facts but think about the old lady sitting next to me who think because the plane looks beat up it's unsafe. C'mon, nothing against AC but you gotta agree their planes don't look that appealing to the common eye.... from the inside too.


User currently offlineAccargo From Canada, joined Sep 2004, 610 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 7968 times:

I don't "gotta agree".

You don't like the livery and your entitled to your opinion.

So which acft in AC's fleet are "beat up looking"?


User currently offlineTinkerBelle From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 7946 times:

Quoting Accargo (Reply 11):
So which acft in AC's fleet are "beat up looking"?

I'd like to say all but I won't.  duck 

Here's a couple. Note the word 'new' on the second pic. Heck, even WN's lively looks better....but like you said, everybody is entitled to their own opinion.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mark Kryst
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Eric Fortin - AirImages



User currently offlineSunriseValley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 5055 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 7921 times:

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 7):
If Qantas is to run a YYZ route they are most likely to fly via LAX as well.

But will they have 5th Freedom rights on the LAX-YYZ sector?
Do QF have 8th Freedom rights on the LAX-JFK sector?


User currently offlineVonRichtofen From Canada, joined Nov 2000, 4629 posts, RR: 36
Reply 14, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 7869 times:

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 12):
Here's a couple. Note the word 'new' on the second pic. Heck, even WN's lively looks better....but like you said, everybody is entitled to their own opinion.

That first pic is the only one in the fleet like that, it's a trial. The second pic is not the new interior, installation of the new interiors doesn't start till May of this year. Why he says "new AC airliner" is unknown to me.

Besides, it's not like any US airline has a transpacific service up to par with AC let alone SQ  Yeah sure Especially so when AC's 777's arrive.

Kris



Word
User currently offlineTinkerBelle From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 7863 times:

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 14):
Besides, it's not like any US airline has a transpacific service up to par with AC let alone SQ Especially so when AC's 777's arrive.

You couldn't be more right about that. UA B744's are in worse shape.


User currently offlineAccargo From Canada, joined Sep 2004, 610 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 7822 times:

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 12):
Here's a couple. Note the word 'new' on the second pic. Heck, even WN's lively looks better....but like you said, everybody is entitled to their own opinion.

So I understand correctly, you are basing your opinions on photos posted here? Have you actually seen any "beat up looking " AC acft in person?


User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31124 posts, RR: 85
Reply 17, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 7807 times:
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Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 15):
You couldn't be more right about that. UA B744's are in worse shape.

Yet they evidently still fill up the back on a regular basis. Since most (if not all) flight search engines search only by price, and not amenities, if UA can offer a lower price then QF or AC, they'll get the sale, even if passengers will be better entertained on QF or AC.

On the flip side, it would be nice if you could specify airline amenities like you can with hotels, so you could see that AC might be $30 more then UA, but offers a 1" wider seat, 16:9 in-seat video, and ice cream instead of cookies with your "beef or pasta".  Wink


User currently offlineTinkerBelle From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 7790 times:

Quoting Accargo (Reply 16):
So I understand correctly,

No you do not.

Quoting Accargo (Reply 16):
you are basing your opinions on photos posted here?



Quoting Accargo (Reply 11):
So which acft in AC's fleet are "beat up looking"?

Per your question above, you wanted to know which aircraft look beatup. I showed you an inside and outside look.

Quoting Accargo (Reply 16):
Have you actually seen any "beat up looking " AC acft in person?



Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 5):
and seeing AC's aircraft from the outside today,

Gee, I hate repeating myself.

Unfortunately, I bet explaining the aircraft I saw won't do you any good so I posted the pictures of other aircraft.


User currently offlineB707Stu From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 918 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 7150 times:

I'm still not clear. AC has 5th freedom rights to pick up local LAX traffic for Sydney? They already have YYZ-LAX rights so that's a no brainer. It's the LAX traffic that I'm not clear about. If they do in fact have these rights, or are about to get these rights, whether from LAX or SFO, I think it's significant. AC will compete very well here, especially with the inbound Western Canadian traffic they'll be able to discount, as well as YUL, YYZ (eastern Canada) traffic they'll get.

As to AC planes looking beat up. A piece of this is due to weather but before all you SAS people say how pretty their planes are, AC's probably see a lot more use and have less times in the 'plane-wash.' Bottom line is AC is a world class carrier. Now, if I was flying LAX-SYD, would I fly them? No, I think I'd prefer UA, NZ or QF in J class.


User currently offlineAirCanada014 From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 1513 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 7123 times:

Quoting B707Stu (Reply 19):
Now, if I was flying LAX-SYD, would I fly them? No, I think I'd prefer UA, NZ or QF in J class

Did you forget if AC do fly to SYD from YYZ via LAX they will be using their new 777s and they will have their new J product.


User currently offlineYULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2182 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6979 times:

YYZ is AC's main hub. AC wants to open a new route from its main hub to SYD. No aircraft can fly it non-stop. LAX is pretty much on the route and is the most logical stop: the most halfway (well, not exactly halfway, but the closest possible stop from SYD), a big StarAlliance hub, served by AC from other cities. It makes sense for them to be allowed to fly it.

Similarly, doesn't NZ have rights on the FRA-LAX sector? Or am I wrong?

SQ????? What would the route be? LAX-SYD? With machines and crew based at LAX or SYD? I guess so since I do not see any logic in a SIN-SYD-LAX route since SIN-LAX non-stop already exists. And a SIN-LAX-SYD route would be a pure non-sense!!!
So, in the case of SQ, that would be a route in the pure purpose of killing the competition, UA being in top of my mind.
Nobody wants airline transportation to work this way...

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 2):
AC vs. SQ should be decided by the market, not by governments.

... except a few people, to whom I would advice to never get a job in a legacy carrier, would their dreams become reality...



When I doubt... go running!
User currently offlinePolaris From Canada, joined Feb 2000, 1143 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6745 times:

The explanation, in very general terms, without going into specific details about bilaterals is about geography.

The various agreements between Australia and the US, Australia and Canada, and the US and Canada, allow for the type of service that Air Canada proposes because the US is geographically between Australia and Canada (Air Canada's home base).

Agreements between Singapore and Australia, Singapore and the US, and Australia and the US, are unlikely to include this kind of service because Australia is not geographically between the US and Singapore (Singapore Airlines' home base).

That's basically how it works.

Now, if Singapore Airlines was looking to fly to Antarctica with a stop in Australia...


User currently offlineEcuatoriana707 From Australia, joined Feb 2006, 33 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 6605 times:

The Australian Govt's decision to keep status quo on the Syd - Lax route was the right one. I'm no fan of higher airfares, but I know that it's our country's last lucrative route which hasn't been traded away. Like JFK-LHR, it should be tightly controlled until Australia gets something in return. I also welcome Air Canada to the route - its great to see some more North American airlines coming back on the service. What about Northwest? If its such a money spinner surely others US carriers seeking increased revenue would jump at it. Alternatively SQ have a part share of Air NZ - who holds rights, currently not used, to fly SYD - LAX. You'd think there would be a back-door way of SQ establishing some competition on the service using carriers with rights already approved.

User currently offlineSimpilicity From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 6324 times:

Quoting Juventus (Reply 3):
I wonder that as well. Qantas viewed Singapore as a huge threat, but they don't seem to care about Air Canada. WHY???????? I'm sure they rather not have AC on the route, but they don't seem bother that much. SQ plans to keep on trying, game is not over.

AC's reputation is bloody awful, whereas perception of SQ is number 1.

QF knows how bad AC is & they can't stop them anyway.

There's always possibility of AC using someone else's aircraft (eg. SQ) until they can get a AC aircraft such as 777 to operate route from APR07.


25 Post contains links Diazhill : AC's reputation is far from bloody awful.. in fact, quite the opposite. http://www.aircanada.com/en/us/news/best/index.html?src=ad_lb AC will launch L
26 SunriseValley : This does not offset the generally less than friendly attitude of the cabin crew. You will have the grandma's on these routes and they do just enough
27 LongHauler : Some day, this old urban legend will die. But for now, its fun to see it keep being repeated. But, I hate to introduce fact, as it really screws up a
28 Juventus : Why the obsession with LAX-SYD? Why not SFO-SYD for SQ? anybody.....
29 Stitch : I guess they want to go where the most valuable traffic is. Australia's importance to Hollywood probably results in a lot of First and Business Class
30 N1120A : Yes. No. The only local traffic they can carry are people coming from Australia, people on stopovers in Los Angeles and non-revenue traffic including
31 SunriseValley : Longhauler... thanks for this titbit; it gives cause for hope that the old culture is being swept away.
32 VonRichtofen : Oh it is thank god. Also most of the very senior f/a's that are still around are the good ones with excellent customer service skills. They stayed be
33 Zvezda : This is a problem with AC, but a much smaller problem than with AA, DL, and UA. On my last international UA flight, there was not an FA in F or C cla
34 Nzrich : SQ sold their stake in NZ quite a while ago...
35 Post contains images B787 : Actually why is everyone focused on SYD? What about BNE or MEL? Poor BNE and MEL. We always get forgotten
36 DFORCE1 : You had me in your corner up until this comment. You say AC is a world class airline, but if you had to choose, you still wouldn't fly them on this s
37 Zvezda : I would take UA aircraft and AC cabin crew over AC aircraft and UA cabin crew. Both of these hypotheticals would be completely unappealing with SQ in
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