Concorde001 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 1228 posts, RR: 4 Posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10777 times:
I just read the following article on PPRUNE:
Quote: UK airline may start flights
LONDON (March 07 2006):Virgin Atlantic is studying prospects for launching flight operations from Pakistan, owing to good market prospects and a 15 percent annual growth rate in passenger and cargo traffic. Virgin Atlantic airways is now Britain's second largest airline serving world's major cities.
The chief executive officers of the airline, Steve Ridgeway and Willy Boulter, who called on the Prime Minister at the Dorchester Hotel, said they were seriously considering adding Pakistan to their list of operations.
The CEO termed the Pakistani market as "attractive" and said the growing economy has led to a tremendous surge in air travel.
The Prime Minster said apart from growing business trends, there was a tremendous tourist potential. He noted that Pakistan has a large diaspora, particularly in North America, Europe, Middle East and the Gulf, which can utilise services of Virgin Atlantic.
Copyright Associated Press of Pakistan, 2006
Sounds like good news. I think ISB will probably be the first city VS serve. BA are going to upgrade their ISB service to a 744 with a F cabin (their current 772 on the route only has C/Y+/Y) due to very good performance. But knowing VS, they may start LHE or KHI and go for a route that BA do not serve - that is what they did with PVG. However it will probably come to profitability as usual. Does anyone know whether ISB is more profitable than the other cities mentioned?
Concorde001 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 1228 posts, RR: 4 Reply 4, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 10518 times:
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 1): May force a rethink for PIA of their LHR ops. New 777-300ER fairly quickly i would guess.
Why? Is it to do with PK's service on the old B742s/743s?
Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 3): With their name and their gaudily painted aircraft, they could run into trouble with some of the more orthodox fraternity in that country.....
I think Virgin did have trouble in some Arab countries, right? Was it Saudi Arabia.....?
Pakistan seems to be a liberal country (especially with regards to women) when compared to Saudi Arabia. VS had problems when they sought to start services to RUH because Lady Penelope is painted on the aircraft and her legs and arms are bare. I really don't think the Pakistani authorities will have any problems with it.
CHRISBA777ER From Singapore, joined Mar 2001, 4982 posts, RR: 62 Reply 5, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 10490 times:
Quoting Concorde001 (Reply 4): Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 1):
May force a rethink for PIA of their LHR ops. New 777-300ER fairly quickly i would guess.
Why? Is it to do with PK's service on the old B742s/743s?
PIA's service at LHR lags behind that at MAN - with VS and BA going head to head at LHR, PIA will need to upgrade its efforts at LHR to keep pace. Luckily for them, ive found that many Pakistani's wont travel BA or VS - they prefer PIA as it is Pakistani.
Behramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3810 posts, RR: 41 Reply 6, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 10464 times:
Virgin Atlantic is represented by Gerrys Travel in Pakistan and according to MIDT data, in 2003 they had a market share of 11% on the LHE-USA market and 6% of the KHI-USA market.
Now if I was VS, I would fly to LHE and not KHI nor ISB. But remember VS has 8 hours of ground time in DXB and that could possibly lead to extending that flight to KHI which is a 1:40 hour flight from DXB...however I wouldnt advise VS doing that as that would erode the yield of their flight + increase its operational costs. Pakistan needs more nonstop flights to UK and not via DXB!!!
For LHE, VS should have 4 weekly A 343 services initially to start of with. Now why I say LHE and not ISB nor KHI is because of :
1. In KHI, EK is the king with 4 daily flights and you cant compete with them out of KHI. They will undercut every one to get the pax and in KHI you have too much competition with QR-GF-EK-SV offering multiple daily flights via their hubs to UK and USA.
2. In ISB, VS would have to compete against PIA, BA, KU, QR, EK and EY with PK and BA having nonstop flights to LHR from ISB 3 times a week each with B 747s.
3. In LHE, the main threat to VS would be PIAs 3 weekly nonstop B 743 flights and secondary threats would be EK, KU and QR. However, there is no BA in LHE and this market segment is where a vast majority of the Pakistani expats/immigrants residing in Europe, UK and USA-CANADA hail from. VS has the most to gain in LHE than in anyother Pakistani market.
4. Plus LHE is in the industrial heartland of Pakistan with the industrial towns of Multan, Sialkot and Faisalabad being 60-100 miles away therefore cargo loads on this flight will BOOM and MINT $$$ for VS.
5. At LHE, there is a lot of O&D demand between LHR and LHE + equally high demand of 6th freedom traffic from USA and Canada who can connect onto VS's flights via LHR to LHE. VS must ensure that its LHE bound flights connect within 3-4 hours max both ways to JFK, EWR, IAD, LAX, SFO and in the future YYZ and ORD. To LHE, VS can also get useful 6th freedom traffic from Western Europe via BMI feeder/interline flights.
Concorde001 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 1228 posts, RR: 4 Reply 7, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 10410 times:
An excellent post Behramjee.
Just one thing:
Quoting Behramjee (Reply 6): VS must ensure that its LHE bound flights connect within 3-4 hours max both ways to JFK, EWR, IAD, LAX, SFO and in the future YYZ and ORD.
I don't think VS have the slots at that time of day to provide US connections. Most of their new routes leave LHR in the evening, for example DEL , BOM and the new DXB flight leave LHR at about 9pm and arrive back into LHR the next day between the hours of 5-7pm. Unlike BA, VS relies mainly on O&D traffic for its LHR routes, and as you say,
Quoting Behramjee (Reply 6): At LHE, there is a lot of O&D demand between LHR
Timboflier215 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 687 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 10359 times:
Gr8Circle From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 2427 posts, RR: 2 Reply 9, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 10193 times:
Quoting Timboflier215 (Reply 8): id hardly call their livery gaudy! conservative it may not be, but its not gaudy either! good luck to them if they do indeed fly to pakistan!
Uh, sorry...should have clarified....I mean gaudy by the customs and restrictions in that part of the world.....
Quoting Concorde001 (Reply 4): Pakistan seems to be a liberal country (especially with regards to women) when compared to Saudi Arabia. VS had problems when they sought to start services to RUH because Lady Penelope is painted on the aircraft and her legs and arms are bare. I really don't think the Pakistani authorities will have any problems with it.
Well....I really hope so....have you watched the news lately, since the publication of certain cartoons.....looooooong after the expression of indignation wound down in other Arab countries, violent demonstrations continued in a certain country.....guess which one..
Concorde001 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 1228 posts, RR: 4 Reply 10, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 10069 times:
Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 9): Well....I really hope so....have you watched the news lately, since the publication of certain cartoons.....looooooong after the expression of indignation wound down in other Arab countries, violent demonstrations continued in a certain country.....guess which one..
I think we shouldn't read too much into the actions of a violent minority. While many Pakistanis may have protested, the majority were peaceful - it just so happens that the minority always get the media attention. Just like the protests that happened in Britain over the cartoons, the majority of Muslims were peaceful. It was a minority of fanatics holding placards such as "7/7 is on its way" getting all the attention in the media.
Pakistan is in many ways a liberal country when compared to other nations in the middle east, for example in 1988 it was the first country in Islamic world to have a women leading it. But I would agree that all countries should work towards democracy and Pakistan certainly needs to work on that.
Back to the issue of Virgin's plans for Pakistan - can ISB, LHE and KHI handle the A340-600 or will they have difficulty like DEL and BOM?
Timboflier215 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 687 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 10059 times:
Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 9): .I mean gaudy by the customs and restrictions in that part of the world
ah, ok. fair enough. yeah, sorry, didnt realise that was what you meant. VS ought to do well with business and western travellers, but as someone has said already, it is likely that the pakistani travellers will stick to PIA
PIA777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1723 posts, RR: 9 Reply 12, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 10021 times:
Maybe if they rename their airline 72-Virgin Atlantic then maybe they will
be more than welcome there......just kidding!!!! It would be cool to see them
in PK.
YOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4442 posts, RR: 33 Reply 13, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 10006 times:
Any chance srvice to Pakistan would be via DXB or does the Pakistan market merit direct flights from the UK? I would imagine the latter to be the case.
YOWza
Airports flown this year:RGN,KUL,LHR,LAX,YOW,YTZ,MDW,SEA,SCL,EZE,AEP,IGR,MDZ,IAD,YVR
Concorde001 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 1228 posts, RR: 4 Reply 14, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 9966 times:
Quoting YOWza (Reply 13): Any chance srvice to Pakistan would be via DXB or does the Pakistan market merit direct flights from the UK? I would imagine the latter to be the case
MAN-ISB
daily B743/B772 (2 out of the 7 flights originate in the U.S.A) MAN-KHI
1 weekly B74M MAN-LHE
5 weekly B743/772 (again 2/3 flights similar to ISB)
GLA-LHE
1 weekly A310 via DXB
BHX-ISB
5 weekly A310
and BA fly:
LHR-ISB
3 weekly B744
it seems there is certainly a healthy UK-Pakistan market! This does not even take into account the many who fly with the Arab carriers and transit in DXB, DOH, AUH, MCT, BAH, KWI etc!
Jaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9910 times:
I'm surprised that PK serves Karachi with only 4 747-200 Combis to the UK.
I always thought that Karachi would have the most traffic out of Pakistan. For one, its the largest city and quite certainly the most cosmopolitan in Pakistan.
KHI747 From Pakistan, joined Oct 2000, 1574 posts, RR: 2 Reply 16, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 9891 times:
The only way KHI would be served would be by an extension of the DXB flight.Most foreign crews dont like to layover in KHI which they would have to if its a LHR-KHI nonstop.The extension of the DXB flight allows the plane to pick up a new crew in DXB on the eastwards run and that crew would return to DXB on the return leg (KHI-DXB-LHR).This is exactly what LX used to do till they finally axed KHI. With the exception of Saudi Arabian,the crews from all the other gulf carriers also do the return journey back to their hub without getting off in KHI.
LHE is also a growing market and as someone pointed out above,there is significant cargo potential there as well. But that cargo potential is there in KHI just as much.
In the event that VS does start flying to Pakistan,which i do doubt,i would imagine they would extend some(not all) of their DXB flight to KHI.
Concorde001 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 1228 posts, RR: 4 Reply 17, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 9873 times:
Quoting KHI747 (Reply 16): Most foreign crews dont like to layover in KHI which they would have to if its a LHR-KHI nonstop
May I ask why?
Also, would an airline make a flight a one-stop service for such a reason? For example, many crew do not like to layover in LOS as they require police escorts due to possible danger. However BA, VS, KL, AF, LH and many other airlines operate direct services to LOS from their respective hubs and their crew overnight in the city.
Jacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 13358 posts, RR: 69 Reply 18, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 9807 times:
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 1): May force a rethink for PIA of their LHR ops. New 777-300ER fairly quickly i would guess.
they have a few 773's on order.....
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 5): PIA's service at LHR lags behind that at MAN - with VS and BA going head to head at LHR, PIA will need to upgrade its efforts at LHR to keep pace. Luckily for them, ive found that many Pakistani's wont travel BA or VS - they prefer PIA as it is Pakistani.
PK heavily relies on its Pakistani pax.......even though PK's service doesn't have the service or amenities that BA/VS have, many pax, especially the elder aunties and uncles like that fact PK have urdu/punjabi speaking F/A's and have traditional Pakistani/Indian food, and traditional Pakistani/Indian entertainment....which is good enough for them....
add to the fact PK might be adding some 747-8's (rumour only), PK will do a good job retaining their loyal customers...
Quoting Behramjee (Reply 6): Now if I was VS, I would fly to LHE and not KHI nor ISB.
you bring up some interesting arguments Behramjee....but I will respectfully disagree with you (to a certain extent)
besides PK, KHI is well underserved...yes EK does have a connecting flight, but if VS has a decent competing fare, then they can take advantage of the fact they would have a direct flight........not to mention, I think many of the "younger generation" would take VS over PK.....
that being said, KHI has lots of barriers, I've flown LH, AF, KL, LX (old Swiss Air), as well as Pan Am into KHI, and all of them have for one reason or the other left.......
and to top it off, AirBlue is going to start services to the United Kindom..
so you might be making the right call...its a toughie..
Quoting Behramjee (Reply 6): 1. In KHI, EK is the king with 4 daily flights and you cant compete with them out of KHI. They will undercut every one to get the pax and in KHI you have too much competition with QR-GF-EK-SV offering multiple daily flights via their hubs to UK and USA.
yes...but EK doesn't rule that route completely......just until recently, PK barely served DXB, now PK has multiple daily flights, not to mention, there is a lot of competition from AirBlue.......while many people outside of Pakistan don't know about AirBlue, its quite big there.....and their prices are EXTREMELY cheap....like KHI-DXB-KHI for $64 (all inclusive) roundtrip...they have brand new Airbus A320's, and their service is good........
in fact, I take Airblue now over EK when I travel from DXB-KHI..
actually, I've been on EK flights to KHI where there were only literally 30-40 pax on board one of their A330's.......
Quoting PIA777 (Reply 12): Maybe if they rename their airline 72-Virgin Atlantic then maybe they will
be more than welcome there......just kidding!!!! It would be cool to see them
in PK.
PIA777
say wha'? what you talking about...typical anti-Pakistani/Muslim rubbish on A.net...
yah I agree.......I think it would certainly be cool to see VS in Pakistan......
Concorde001 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 1228 posts, RR: 4 Reply 19, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 9747 times:
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 18): especially the elder aunties and uncles like that fact PK have Urdu/punjabi speaking F/A's and have traditional Pakistani/Indian food, and traditional Pakistani/Indian entertainment....which is good enough for them....
I'm sure VS could sort this out. For example on their DEL and BOM routes, they have employed alot of Indian based cabin crew who speak Hindi and Punjabi - they could do the same on Pakistan routes (BA dress some of their crew on ISB+India routes in saris and suits). Also with their V:PORT (On demand) entertainment system, they can load it up with Bollywood/Urdu drama. As for the food, that could also be sorted (VS are currently going through a complete menu change). Maybe VS could really give PK a run for their money!
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 18): I think many of the "younger generation" would take VS over PK.....
You might be right there. VS have a great marketing team and the Virgin brand is respected - young Pakistanis may be attracted by the all fun, stylish and fashionable brand that is Virgin Atlantic. Chauffeur driven to the airport, onboard massage and beauty therapy and a brilliant Clubhouse lounge - the appeal is certainly there.
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 18): and to top it off, AirBlue is going to start services to the United Kingdom..
I was reading on PPRUNE (so this could be a load of cobblers or may have some truth) that Air Blue's proposed route to MAN will be on one of their new A321s via IST due to lack of wide body aircraft. I know Air Blue want to start UK operations this year, but has there been any news on aircraft? Also I've only heard of flights to MAN, nothing about LON. If this A321 rumour is correct, I doubt VS or PK for that matter have anything to worry about.
Jacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 13358 posts, RR: 69 Reply 20, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 9487 times:
Quoting Concorde001 (Reply 19): I'm sure VS could sort this out. For example on their DEL and BOM routes, they have employed alot of Indian based cabin crew who speak Hindi and Punjabi - they could do the same on Pakistan routes (BA dress some of their crew on ISB+India routes in saris and suits). Also with their V:PORT (On demand) entertainment system, they can load it up with Bollywood/Urdu drama. As for the food, that could also be sorted (VS are currently going through a complete menu change). Maybe VS could really give PK a run for their money!
Concorde001.......that's a tall order......could they possibly do it and siphon off some PK pax, yes...but it would take a heck of a lot of effort to be successful to at least get the "oldies" to switch.......
that being said, VS has never been afraid of a little competition........
Quoting Concorde001 (Reply 19):
I was reading on PPRUNE (so this could be a load of cobblers or may have some truth) that Air Blue's proposed route to MAN will be on one of their new A321s via IST due to lack of wide body aircraft. I know Air Blue want to start UK operations this year, but has there been any news on aircraft? Also I've only heard of flights to MAN, nothing about LON. If this A321 rumour is correct, I doubt VS or PK for that matter have anything to worry about.
oh..interesting......I didn't know that......from what I read a while back, they were going to acquire some A330's for London.......thanks for the information..and if you are right with the information, then you would be correct as this wouldn't be too much of a problem for neither VS nor PK.......
Quoting KHI747 (Reply 16): The only way KHI would be served would be by an extension of the DXB flight.Most foreign crews dont like to layover in KHI which they would have to if its a LHR-KHI nonstop.The extension of the DXB flight allows the plane to pick up a new crew in DXB on the eastwards run and that crew would return to DXB on the return leg (KHI-DXB-LHR).This is exactly what LX used to do till they finally axed KHI. With the exception of Saudi Arabian,the crews from all the other gulf carriers also do the return journey back to their hub without getting off in KHI.
I know what you are saying, but given that Pakistan has a better political climate now(ie.-better than Bhutto, Hussain, Sharif, etc), I don't think the pilots and F/A's would have too much of a problem in terms of safety.....
in fact, I see the "ghorays" being treated better than other people by airport customs and security..........now getting ripped off in Saddar or Tariq Road, thats another story.....
Jacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 13358 posts, RR: 69 Reply 22, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 9017 times:
Quoting BlueDuck (Reply 21): Stick some Pakistani clothes on the virgin and send her off to Pakistan... just like airlines had the 'Asia' version for Taipae.
PIA777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1723 posts, RR: 9 Reply 23, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 8822 times:
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 18): say wha'? what you talking about...typical anti-Pakistani/Muslim rubbish on A.net
Jacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 13358 posts, RR: 69 Reply 24, posted (3 years 11 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8814 times:
Quoting PIA777 (Reply 23): Come on Yaar!! I can say that, I am a Paki.
hahaha..........of course you know I was kidding........
"Up The Irons!"
25 PIA777: So was I, but even if PK is more liberal than most muslim countries, I would say there will be some who will protest the lady on the plane. PIA777
26 Schipholjfk: Pakistan has a tremendous tourist potential? Are you kidding me? It's one of the most lawless countries in the world... oh ya... I can see all of us
28 PIA777: The northern part near K2 and Islamabad are real nice. Don't judge a book by its cover. You don't know, you have never been there and with that attit
29 Hammerb32: Not quite, the deputy president of Pakistan doesn't go around shooting people, no crips and no bloods and less gun crime than the US or A. It has a h
30 Jacobin777: haha..you know how us Pakistani's are.... don't go........no one is asking you....... .........places like Gilgit are BEAUTIFUL!! I was thinking abou
31 Gr8Circle: Come on, what are you talking about???? Pakistan should be a very safe place for foreign tourists....considering that most of the local terrorists ar
32 PIA777: My wife's cousins went to The mountain regions last year and had a great time. They said its hard to breath with the elevation but they had a great t
34 Jacobin777: Shukria for the info PIA777......I'm very excited about going.....I expected to see many non-Pakistanis there......
35 Thud: Well said old chap! And neither does our Prime Minister invoke his relationship with God to launch and then justify an illegal war. Reminds of a nort
37 Jacobin777: let me know, and I'll be there.....I go every year as it is....
38 Cloud4000: It's nice to see air service returning to Pakistan after years of no activity. The economy is doing well, and this reflects the increase in air servic
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into KHI, and all of them have for one reason or the other left.......
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