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Maxjet Delays Washington Launch  
User currently offlineTerryb99 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 291 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2865 times:

Business-class airline Maxjet Airways has postponed the launch of its Stansted-Washington route until April 3, blaming delays refitting its aircraft.

The whole article;

http://www.travelweekly.co.uk/Articl...xjet+delays+Washington+launch.html

33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBMIFlyer From UK - England, joined Feb 2004, 8810 posts, RR: 58
Reply 1, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2865 times:

I was reading about Maxjet today in the March Issue of Airliner World Big grin

They appear to be doing pretty good  Smile

I read they are considering expansion with up to 6 more aircraft  bouncy 


Lee



Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
User currently offlinePSA727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 974 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2656 times:

I thought I saw their 767 aircraft Tuesday afternoon while I was on
a plane taxiing on the runway at IAD. The A/C wasn't at a gate, but
I thought a saw the word Maxjet written length-wise on the tail and
I think there was a light purple scheme to it.

I could be wrong, I was very tired that day.



fly high, pay low...Germanwings!
User currently offlineJayDavis From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 2000 posts, RR: 15
Reply 3, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2616 times:

Wonder which airline is doing better?

EOS or MaxJet?


User currently offlineHalls120 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2589 times:

Quoting PSA727 (Reply 2):
I thought I saw their 767 aircraft Tuesday afternoon while I was on
a plane taxiing on the runway at IAD. The A/C wasn't at a gate, but
I thought a saw the word Maxjet written length-wise on the tail and
I think there was a light purple scheme to it.

I could be wrong, I was very tired that day.

You were right. I saw it today, sitting at a stand west of the B terminal.


User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2536 times:

I'm taking them in June to London on my way to Ireland. $ 999 R/T to STN.

Just a bit more than coach in BA. Substantially less than WTPlus, and 1/4 of the fare in ClubWorld.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17777 posts, RR: 46
Reply 6, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2458 times:

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 5):
I'm taking them in June to London on my way to Ireland. $ 999 R/T to STN.

Just a bit more than coach in BA. Substantially less than WTPlus, and 1/4 of the fare in ClubWorld.

Sounds like they're doing great to me!  Silly



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineWJ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 347 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2399 times:

I still don't understand how they are in business. Simple math...
$1000 RT, 102 seats, approx $180,000 in costs for a RT 767 NYC-JFK.

Ok... Lets face it, the 767 was a horrible choice for this type of service. With a 100% load factor, even if we average $1500 RT, which clearly isn't as high, you will only generate $153,000 a RT. If you can't break even on your flight when it's full, how will you ever make money as a company???


"We will have forward loads of 45%-50% on the new route and are recording loads of more than 50% in March and April for the existing Stansted-New York route," Rogliano said.

Little birdy told me that on an average day Maxjet loads between 20-30 pax a flight. Some of the high days, usually sundays, are around 50. Also, if they already have bookings for the new IAD service that was supposed to start in two weeks, it is if they cancelled 10 flights. More money spent on rebooking or refunds.

Very old planes+poor business plan+Not too much start-up money to begin with=trouble.



146,727,732,733,734,735,73G,738,739,742,743,744,752,753,762,763,764,772,300,310,319,320,321,330,343,DC9,D10,MD11,M80,E17
User currently offlineSNATH From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3247 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2396 times:

Quoting WJ (Reply 7):
Ok... Lets face it, the 767 was a horrible choice for this type of service. With a 100% load factor, even if we average $1500 RT, which clearly isn't as high, you will only generate $153,000 a RT. If you can't break even on your flight when it's full, how will you ever make money as a company???

You add cargo.

Tony



Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
User currently offlineWJ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 347 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2385 times:

Quoting SNATH (Reply 8):
You add cargo.

Cargo is not that simple. You don't just throw cargo on and expect to collect. The profit margin on cargo on a single airliner is miniscule to a point it doesn't exist. The profit is in volume. Because of the added fuel expense when you add weight, add the cost of wearhousing, handling and delivery agents and maybe some advertising, so people know you actualy have a cargo operation, you are looking at a major expense. You will not turn around that expense on 1-2 flights a day in years.

Sorry, IMO it's just a good idea done horribly bad. Not your cargo idea, Maxjet.



146,727,732,733,734,735,73G,738,739,742,743,744,752,753,762,763,764,772,300,310,319,320,321,330,343,DC9,D10,MD11,M80,E17
User currently offlineSNATH From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3247 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2378 times:

Quoting WJ (Reply 9):
Cargo is not that simple. You don't just throw cargo on and expect to collect. The profit margin on cargo on a single airliner is miniscule to a point it doesn't exist. The profit is in volume. Because of the added fuel expense when you add weight, add the cost of wearhousing, handling and delivery agents and maybe some advertising, so people know you actualy have a cargo operation, you are looking at a major expense. You will not turn around that expense on 1-2 flights a day in years.

Well, I did ask in another thread and, apparently, both Maxjet and EOS do carry cargo (at least, that's what some of the members here said). So, there must be something there for both airlines.

Now, given that you seem to know much more than me, can you please give us an idea of how much it costs to do a B767 trip?

Quoting WJ (Reply 9):
Sorry, IMO it's just a good idea done horribly bad. Not your cargo idea, Maxjet.

I'm personally wishing my best to both Maxjet and EOS. I think we need some new and fresh ideas in this industry. Any reason why you seem to be against them?

And on a high note: a (late) welcome to a.net!

Tony



Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
User currently offlineSimpilicity From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2378 times:

Quoting WJ (Reply 7):
Very old planes+poor business plan+Not too much start-up money to begin with=trouble.

aircraft are not that old & are ex QF I believe so should have been maintained very well.

Quoting WJ (Reply 7):
approx $180,000 in costs for a RT 767 NYC-JFK.

Perhaps this figure you've come up with is wrong? With the aircraft acquisition costs being very low perhaps it's too high.

& are fares inclusive of fuel surcharge ? probably not ? Then there's a chunk of revenue in fuel + insurance surcharges etc. to be considered.

Anyway good luck Maxjet - in some ways similar to OZJET down under.

I hope u both survive & prosper, but still believe that both airlines should go 2 class, to allow them to get incremental revenue without bastardising business class fares.

This could mean half seats C & half Y, not the traditional 10-15% C/J mix.


User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5283 posts, RR: 23
Reply 12, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2373 times:

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 5):
Just a bit more than coach in BA.

Nice justification. But let's face it, I can go r/t to London right now on United for $268. So I could buy a whole row on United and still have enough left over to have a meal from Lutece on each leg. Neverthless, I'm sure that you will enjoy it.


User currently offlineWJ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 347 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2356 times:

Quoting SNATH (Reply 10):
Well, I did ask in another thread and, apparently, both Maxjet and EOS do carry cargo (at least, that's what some of the members here said). So, there must be something there for both airlines.

Well, it does seem that Eos has a different structure with the 757 and the premium service which costs much more, so reliance on cargo should not be a big factor. Again, I still don't see cargo as being viable for any airline with such a small operation.

As far as operating costs, I don't know all the number details but I will say this, average 767 OW fuel load NYC-LHR is roughly 100,000-110,000 lbs. 757 is roughly 55000-60000. The higher weight of the 767 will mean higher costs on landing fees at each airport.

Quoting SNATH (Reply 10):
I'm personally wishing my best to both Maxjet and EOS. I think we need some new and fresh ideas in this industry. Any reason why you seem to be against them?

I want to see all airlines succeed. It's obvioulsy an interest with me. I do have a bit of a dislike towards Maxjet since they only decided what sort of an airline to run, after they were already certified as an LCC and only after Eos announced what they were planning to do. (This is by the way, why they got stuck with those 767's which were much more suitble for LCC ops). In the process, they have hurt both airlines' potential revenue. Kind of a punk move and no-one really likes that... That sort of put me on the Eos side if you will.

Quoting SNATH (Reply 10):
And on a high note: a (late) welcome to a.net!

Thank you! Long time reader first time(s) caller...



146,727,732,733,734,735,73G,738,739,742,743,744,752,753,762,763,764,772,300,310,319,320,321,330,343,DC9,D10,MD11,M80,E17
User currently offlineSimpilicity From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2352 times:

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 12):
Nice justification. But let's face it, I can go r/t to London right now on United for $268. So I could buy a whole row on United and still have enough left over to have a meal from Lutece on each leg. Neverthless, I'm sure that you will enjoy it.

Another stupid UA fare !!! No wonder they are going broke.

Anyway, the point is that Maxjet are trying to appeal to the business class traveller who pays their own fare & also to corporations who need/want to reduce they travel costs.

here's an example of difference in fares between Y & C between Australia & North America (as part of a package).

UA had a return fare from BNE to anywhere in the USA return for around AUD$1200 (QF BNE/SYD/BNE) . PAx want to go to YVR & UA only got them as close as SEA. Suggested driving/training/flying SEA/YVR but in the end they flew QF business class upgrade, which was QF BNE/LAX in C & QF (AS codeshare LAX/YVR IN Y) for around AUD$8000, neither fare inc taxes/charges.


User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5283 posts, RR: 23
Reply 15, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2346 times:

Quoting WJ (Reply 7):
Lets face it, the 767 was a horrible choice for this type of service.



Quoting WJ (Reply 7):
Very old planes

Personally, I disagree. Let me start by saying that all-business-class airlines have always had a very tough niche and, in my opinion, are an enormously risky investment and more likely than not to fail. But if MaxJet fail, it isn't going to be because of this aircraft choice. It's going to be because they can't develop the market.

The 767 is an extremely popular aircraft among both airlines and customers. Despite the fact that the order backlog is miniscule as airlines look to the next generation widebodies, I defy you to find a 767-300ER in decent shape at any kind of reasonable lease or sale price. Can't be had. Doesn't exist, even though there are hundreds of this airframe out there. The operating economics of the -200, of course, aren't as great as the -300, but the capital cost of a -200 is dramatically lower than the -300 because good-condition ones are relatively-widely available. For an over-the-pond trip to London, the -200 is a decent choice for MaxJet. Widebody comfort, which some folks really do appreciate. Right size, because they really don't want to have to sell any more seats than they now have. Low capital cost. Modern avionics, engines, etc. Excellent dispatch reliability. Plenty of range for this trip (i.e. don't need an ER). As to age, puh-leese. On an aircraft with this kind of interior rehab and exterior paint, nobody but the nerdiest airline geek will have the slightest idea how old the particular airframe is -- heck, it's still in production, so who's gonna know?

I haven't seen these guys' business plan, but I have to assume that they're assuming that they'll lose money for a while and then be able to push fares up closer to $1000 each way while they load 80%+ per flight. Then you have yourself $160K per r/t. I suspect that they also anticipate spreading their administrative costs among a greater number of flights as they expand to other cities. Whether they can turn a profit before their working capital runs out is anyone's guess, but obviously they hope to do so. I'm sure that for most of the investors, this is an ego play ("Look, ma, I own an airline") more than it is their hope of becoming the next Gordon Bethune or (insert name of someone who has made hundreds of millions owning an airline long-term; oh, wait, there aren't any...including the stockholders of virtually every American carrier, who were wiped out in bankruptcy)  Smile


User currently offlineSNATH From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3247 posts, RR: 22
Reply 16, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2346 times:

Quoting WJ (Reply 13):
That sort of put me on the Eos side if you will.

They seem to have different models. From what I've seen, Eos are trying to attract F class flyers, whereas Maxjet are going after the business class crowd (and seem to be a lot cheaper than EOS). Maybe they could coexist?

Tony



Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
User currently offlineSimpilicity From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2333 times:

Quoting SNATH (Reply 16):
They seem to have different models. From what I've seen, Eos are trying to attract F class flyers, whereas Maxjet are going after the business class crowd (and seem to be a lot cheaper than EOS). Maybe they could coexist?

Tony

Maybe they should work together? If they offerred the same/similar product even though I believe EOS flys 752's, they could increase their frequencies on same route/codeshare.


User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5283 posts, RR: 23
Reply 18, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2311 times:

Regarding my comment about UA's $268 r/t to London.

Quoting Simpilicity (Reply 14):
Another stupid UA fare !!!

Well, yeah, and let's face it, it comes with restrictions. If you're a businessperson booking for, say, tomorrow returning in 3 days, which is MaxJet's crowd, AA wants $1600 r/t for plain old coach. Of course, these over-the-pond flights are the things that heat up your elite status, so people will actually suffer in coach on their employer's dime so that they can compete with other Platinum fliers for that f/c upgrade to Cleveland.

COSTS
-------

But I digress. Let's talk about costs for a second. Some of the big factors in cost are really unknown to us. For example, crew. Delta pays $5.53 per aircraft mile in crew costs on a 767-300. On the same aircraft at North American, it's $2.33. Wow. Conversely, NAA pays about 43 cents per mile in insurance costs, whereas Delta pays a mere 7 cents. If we put Maxjet more on the NAA side of both (where it likely is), then we're talking about roughly $11 per mile for direct variable costs on the -200 series version of the 767, including fuel, about $3 per mile in capital cost, and some unknown (call it $4) in passenger service and some unknown (call it $2) for administrative expenses. So, really roughly, let's call this $20 per flight mile for the 767-200. This assumes a lot about utilization, but if they're getting 12 hours a day, that's probably fair, and my fuel cost number is pretty current. On a 7000-mile round-trip, you're looking, then, at $140,000 all-in, and, say $120,000 if you really squeeze the passenger service and administrative costs. Pay the Delta crew price, and you'd add $22,000 to the round-trip. Still, I have trouble getting to $180,000, even with today's fuel costs and a big advertising budget.

But it shows you how this, like all businesses, is one of pennies. The difference in fuel price even from last year is over $10,000 per round-trip. Shave a few bucks in crew compensation, a few in capital cost, and a few in passenger service, and all of a sudden you go from losing $20,000 a trip to making $20,000 a trip. Or making $6 million a year rather than losing $6 million a year. You get the picture.

SO...using the model of $153,000 revenue per sold-out round-trip (although it would likely be higher if they were reaching those load factors and ramping up the fare), the thing can break even or even make a little money. At $75,000 per round trip (a 50% load factor), they're plainly losing money, even at my rock-bottom round-trip cost of $120,000.

Hope this is as interesting to you as it is to me.


User currently offlineMika From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 2881 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2292 times:

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 12):
So I could buy a whole row on United

I like this thought Big grin

I wonder if that would be possible, to just shell out the money and have a whole row for yourself so you could invite the hottest ladies for a drink in "my section" of the aircraft. That would be something Big grin


User currently offlineSimpilicity From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2289 times:

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 18):
COSTS
-------

But I digress. Let's talk about costs for a second. Some of the big factors in cost are really unknown to us. For example, crew. Delta pays $5.53 per aircraft mile in crew costs on a 767-300. On the same aircraft at North American, it's $2.33. Wow. Conversely, NAA pays about 43 cents per mile in insurance costs, whereas Delta pays a mere 7 cents. If we put Maxjet more on the NAA side of both (where it likely is), then we're talking about roughly $11 per mile for direct variable costs on the -200 series version of the 767, including fuel, about $3 per mile in capital cost, and some unknown (call it $4) in passenger service and some unknown (call it $2) for administrative expenses. So, really roughly, let's call this $20 per flight mile for the 767-200. This assumes a lot about utilization, but if they're getting 12 hours a day, that's probably fair, and my fuel cost number is pretty current. On a 7000-mile round-trip, you're looking, then, at $140,000 all-in, and, say $120,000 if you really squeeze the passenger service and administrative costs. Pay the Delta crew price, and you'd add $22,000 to the round-trip. Still, I have trouble getting to $180,000, even with today's fuel costs and a big advertising budget.

But it shows you how this, like all businesses, is one of pennies. The difference in fuel price even from last year is over $10,000 per round-trip. Shave a few bucks in crew compensation, a few in capital cost, and a few in passenger service, and all of a sudden you go from losing $20,000 a trip to making $20,000 a trip. Or making $6 million a year rather than losing $6 million a year. You get the picture.

SO...using the model of $153,000 revenue per sold-out round-trip (although it would likely be higher if they were reaching those load factors and ramping up the fare), the thing can break even or even make a little money. At $75,000 per round trip (a 50% load factor), they're plainly losing money, even at my rock-bottom round-trip cost of $120,000.

Hope this is as interesting to you as it is to me.

great BUT have you taken into account fuel & insurance surcharges?


User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5713 posts, RR: 24
Reply 21, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 2258 times:

Quoting SNATH (Reply 10):
I'm personally wishing my best to both Maxjet and EOS.

As am I, since I fly EOS twice a month now...*sweet*

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 15):
I'm sure that for most of the investors, this is an ego play ("Look, ma, I own an airline") more than it is their hope of becoming the next Gordon Bethune or (insert name of someone who has made hundreds of millions owning an airline long-term; oh, wait, there aren't any...including the stockholders of virtually every American carrier, who were wiped out in bankruptcy)

Hehe...Heres a few names that did work their airline/aerospace company for long-term survival:

*Bob Six
*Jack Frye
*CE Woolman
*CR Smith
*Bill Patterson
*Old Mac
*Don Douglas
*Gordon Bethune
*Juan Trippe
*Pop Hanshue

Quoting SNATH (Reply 16):
Eos are trying to attract F class flyers, whereas Maxjet are going after the business class crowd (and seem to be a lot cheaper than EOS). Maybe they could coexist?

I would think they could. Who else flies US-Stansted besides these two and CO?

Quoting Mika (Reply 19):
Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 12):
So I could buy a whole row on United

I like this thought

Me too!


Quoting Mika (Reply 19):
I wonder if that would be possible, to just shell out the money and have a whole row for yourself so you could invite the hottest ladies for a drink in "my section" of the aircraft. That would be something

LOL< I think Imma gunna have to try this out...New Reality Show: "Bachelor: Mile High Club"



Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21562 posts, RR: 59
Reply 22, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 2235 times:

The costs per roundtrip listed above just sound plain wrong. Otherwise, CO is losing money on every flight across the Atlantic, as is DL, but we know that isn't true, those are the routes keeping them barely afloat. After all, a CO 762 might only take in $120k roundtrip for the route when you factor in discounts, crew rest, non-rev, mileage seats, etc., and that actually includes connecting passengers in EWR from other flights as well as well as a 100% capacity jet. But it doesn't factor cargo.


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2127 times:

Quoting WJ (Reply 7):
I still don't understand how they are in business. Simple math...
$1000 RT, 102 seats, approx $180,000 in costs for a RT 767 NYC-JFK.

The fares on the IAD route at $ 1000 R/T are merely introductory fares. They're supposed to rise to about $ 2000 R/T later in the year.


User currently offlineWJ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 347 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (8 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2066 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 22):
The costs per roundtrip listed above just sound plain wrong. Otherwise, CO is losing money on every flight across the Atlantic, as is DL, but we know that isn't true, those are the routes keeping them barely afloat. After all, a CO 762 might only take in $120k roundtrip for the route when you factor in discounts, crew rest, non-rev, mileage seats, etc., and that actually includes connecting passengers in EWR from other flights as well as well as a 100% capacity jet. But it doesn't factor cargo

DL is losing buckets of money every time they open for business in the morning. I doubt either they or CO are making money on the highly contested UK market.

Quoting Simpilicity (Reply 20):
Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 18):
COSTS
-------

Just one addition, Business class meal on a trans-atlantic + some alcohol, could run anywhere from $70-$120 per passenger. For a 100 you are looking at another 10k per segment, 20K R/T.



146,727,732,733,734,735,73G,738,739,742,743,744,752,753,762,763,764,772,300,310,319,320,321,330,343,DC9,D10,MD11,M80,E17
25 BWI757 : Uh, BA was offering R/T to LHR last week for $129 each way according to the regular emails I get from them. $129x2=$258. Stupid for UA to compete I g
26 Ikramerica : I call shenanigans! And same goes for your DL slam. The cost isn't higher to fly to UK than it is to fly to ZRH, and my numbers apply to any route ac
27 Ned Kelly : I was aware of someone who recently bought a one-way ticket on Maxjet from STN-JFK; the cost was £599 (GBP). I was at STN last month when this flight
28 WJ : You need to read more carefully. I did not say that it costs more to fly to the UK, I said it is more contested. While as you suggest (correctly) tha
29 Midway2AirTran : I wouldn't rely on the estimated costs above, afterall MaxJet is a privately held LCC (Low Cost Carrier), not a DL or CO. If their plan was to fly unp
30 Wjcandee : Yes.
31 Wjcandee : Correct -- those would be within "passenger service". At $4/mile*7000 miles, we built in $28000 to cover that and other pax svc expenses.
32 Wjcandee : Oh, you mean exactly like North American was until recently, whose costs I used? Where do you think there is money to be saved? Crew? Fuel? Insurance
33 Simpilicity : to clarify surcharges paid for by pax but not part of advertised fare.
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