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Does San Diego Need A New Airport?  
User currently offlineLostintime From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 16 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 6979 times:

In the North County times there is an article about a professor from UCSD that says that numbers by the SDCRAA are inflated and brings up issues on why they maybe.

UCSD professor disputes need for new airport

134 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 6967 times:

The professor is a NIMBY.

I will be the first San Diegan to publically proclaim, "I LOVE LINDBERGH!!", but realistically, it cannot continue. San Diego needs another airport.

All of Southern California is becoming relentlessly hemmed in. BUR, LGB, and SNA all are besieged by forces that desperately want them closed. "Everybody should just use LAX" is their mantra. Well, guess what? LAX just approved a plan that would cap passengers in the upcoming years. ONT is simply too distant in the vast metropolis that is the metro Los Angeles area and will never be a viable alternative.

It is unfortunate to say that a vast number of the cars clogging up the 405 are travelling from San Diego to use LAX. What does that tell you about San Diego?

Lindbergh is a beautiful airport with a spectacular approach for both the passenger and the spotter. There is nothing more amazing that walking through Balboa Park and every few minutes hearing and then seeing a graceful bird gliding majestically in for landing. You can almost reach out and touch the planes. It is also incredibly convenient for those of us in the nearby neighborhoods.

But it is going to be unable to meet the needs of this portion of California. The runway is less than 10,000 feet long, and there is terrain to clear at the end of the runway that creates serious restrictions on long-haul aircraft, although British Airways used to get a fully loaded 777 of the ground to fly SAN-LHR non-stop!

The case for/against Miramar and other military sites has been discussed. My personal opinion, knowing the terrain and accessibility quite well as a long time resident, is that it is the only viable site. There is simply no other location.

I despise the thought of losing Lindbergh, but in reality, all good things must one day come to an end.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineAviationAddict From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 616 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 6947 times:
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I've only been to San Diego once so I'm obviously not an expert on the area, but is there enough room out there to build another airport close enough to the city?

User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4316 posts, RR: 28
Reply 3, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 6947 times:

Well, even if the esteemed professor's assessment is correct, which it isn't, the one factor overlooked is that SAN is not suitable as an airport for such a large metro area in its CURRENT form (regardless of the fact that it may not be at capacity).


I'm not a racist...I hate Biden, too.
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 6905 times:

Quote:
I've only been to San Diego once so I'm obviously not an expert on the area, but is there enough room out there to build another airport close enough to the city?

No, San Diego is geographically unique - it is basically a walled city a la West Berlin. To the south is Mexico, to the west is the Pacific ocean, to the east are mountains, and to the north is Camp Pendleton.

San Diego is also unique in that there is virtually NO flat terrain large enough to be suitable for a new airport. Even Lindbergh requires a breathtaking dive over terrain on approach, and terrain must be cleared at the other end of the runway on take-off.



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineAviationAddict From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 616 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 6873 times:
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Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 4):
San Diego is also unique in that there is virtually NO flat terrain large enough to be suitable for a new airport.

Would the city ever consider a sort of Japan-like reclaimed land island airport out in the ocean?


User currently offlineSJCRRPAX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 6852 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 1):
I will be the first San Diegan to publically proclaim, "I LOVE LINDBERGH!!", but realistically, it cannot continue. San Diego needs another airport.

 thumbsup  Being a native of the city (who moved away, you can take the person out of San Diego, but you can't take San Diego out of the Person) I love the Lindbergh also.

I know, San Diego can use the Dallas model, You know, WN gets the good old airport, and all the other suckers get stuck miles out of town!
 laughing 


User currently offlineCoronado990 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1597 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 6839 times:

Quoting AviationAddict (Reply 5):
Would the city ever consider a sort of Japan-like reclaimed land island airport out in the ocean?

NO, NO, NO. Japan's reclaimed land airports are in protected shallow harbors, not in deep unprotected oceans. Besides, Lindbergh is built on reclaimed land in the harbor anyway. San Diego was way ahead of it's time in that respect. So you are a little too late.



Uncle SAN at your service!
User currently offlineCoronado990 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1597 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 6823 times:

Hey, if anybody wants to see what an airliner looks like at Miramar (NKX) there is a ATA L-1011 heading there right now from ANC arrival time is 1:05pm.

Airline American Trans Air
Flight Number 8704
Departure City (Airport) Anchorage, AK (ANC)
Departure Time 03/12/2006 07:36 AM
Arrival City (Airport) San Diego, CA (NKX)
Arrival Time 03/12/2006 01:05 PM
Remaining Flight Time 01:51
Aircraft Type Lockheed Tri-Star (all series)
Current Altitude 37,000 feet
Current Groundspeed 601 mph
Flight Status In Flight



Uncle SAN at your service!
User currently offlineHawaiian717 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3190 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 6769 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 1):

It is unfortunate to say that a vast number of the cars clogging up the 405 are travelling from San Diego to use LAX. What does that tell you about San Diego?

While I'm sure the number is notable, vast wouldn't be the right word. A majority of 405 traffic is local commuters.

The new Union Station FlyAway bus does give San Diegans an potential new option to get to LAX: Amtrak's Pacific Surfliner. While it was possible before, this makes it easier requiring just a single transfer at Union Station, rather than doing a Surfliner-Red Line-Blue Line-Green Line dance or dealing with local bus routes. Amtrak isn't the quickest way up, so especially in non-rush hours you could probably get there faster by driving, but it's an option nonetheless.

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 8):
Hey, if anybody wants to see what an airliner looks like at Miramar (NKX) there is a ATA L-1011 heading there right now from ANC arrival time is 1:05pm.

 drool  If only I knew a place to photograph at NKX.


User currently offlineThegooddoctor From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 523 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 6708 times:

...weren't the boundries of the Gadsden purchase a little south of the current US-Mexico border (I know they are in AZ - we should occupy waterfront property on the gulf of california). If so, why doesn't the California National Guard just reclaim the lost territory and build a new airport in Tijuana?

...Just an idea  wink 



The GoodDoctor
User currently offlineGOCAPS16 From Japan, joined Jan 2000, 4339 posts, RR: 21
Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 6696 times:

Yea, with the expansion of Lindbergh Field, San Diego needs a new airport. I just hope they don't move to a new location becuase the current itself is perfect. Right in the middle of downtown. I highly doubt North Island will be a pending location. We don't need any more traffic crossing the Cornonado Bridge going on base. Miramar could be an option since it's big and they could build a new runway and the terminal on the opposite side from the military side. I've seen several military airports which has an active duty military and commericial passenger services. I'm not talking about the reserve forces, BTW. But, the other locations, such as March AFB, is waaay to far. I'm not flying to San Diego just to see my family and drive a good 2 hours away to home? Screw that.

Kevin

[Edited 2006-03-12 23:01:55]

User currently offlineCoronado990 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1597 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 6658 times:

Quoting Thegooddoctor (Reply 10):
...weren't the boundries of the Gadsden purchase a little south of the current US-Mexico border (I know they are in AZ - we should occupy waterfront property on the gulf of california). If so, why doesn't the California National Guard just reclaim the lost territory and build a new airport in Tijuana?

I always thought the opposite. What a bad ass city Tijuana could have been if they had the port. Or what would really have happened is that San Diego would be in Mexico and Tijuana would have never materialized. I think the location of border definitely favored the U.S. and excluded Mexico from having any kind of decent facility in the northern part of their country. Let's not push it with the airport.

I starting to think we should just shave down Otay Mountain to the 2000' foot level and that should give us a mesa big enough for 3500 acres. The problem with something this massive is I bet that once it gets under way and almost completed, the government will say..."okay, we're done with Miramar now...you can have it".  crazy 



Uncle SAN at your service!
User currently offlineSocalfive From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 6604 times:

Miramar is the only answer, the question is when and how it will eventually happen, it won't be any time soon, one option is to move the Marines to El Toro and convert Miramar to all commercial. This would solve a lot of problems.


SoCal


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26414 posts, RR: 75
Reply 14, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 6598 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 1):
although British Airways used to get a fully loaded 777 of the ground to fly SAN-LHR non-stop!

It wasn't fully loaded. That is why the service failed.

Quoting AviationAddict (Reply 5):
Would the city ever consider a sort of Japan-like reclaimed land island airport out in the ocean?

That would be an enfironmental disaster

Quoting Socalfive (Reply 13):
move the Marines to El Toro

El Toro is closed and will not be reopened. You are right about the need to move to Miramar, however.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineFlightShadow From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 963 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 6591 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 1):
There is nothing more amazing that walking through Balboa Park and every few minutes hearing and then seeing a graceful bird gliding majestically in for landing. You can almost reach out and touch the planes. It is also incredibly convenient for those of us in the nearby neighborhoods.

I stayed in the BayView Super8 for a week, the approach path was literally a few blocks over. I also spent a lot of time near the Aerospace museum at Balboa Park

As sad as it would be to see Lindy go, they do need a new one. Remember the PSA crash in the 80s? A crash of that magnitude is almost bound to happen again, whether it be a pilot coming in too low in horrible weather or what not...they need a new one. And there's no room.

[Edited 2006-03-13 02:36:59]


"When the tide goes out, you can tell who was skinnydipping."
User currently offlineSocalfive From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6532 times:

Quoting FlightShadow (Reply 15):
Remember the PSA crash in the 80s? A crash of that magnitude is almost bound to happen again, whether it be a pilot coming in too low in horrible weather or what not...they need a new one

Yeah but the PSA crash had nothing to do with Lindburgh itself. That was pilot error by failing to keep visual separation with other traffic and the controller's failure to be certain both pilots were indeed keeping visual.

That same accident could happen over any city in the US under the same circumstances. What has been done to help prevent this from ever occuring again at SAN is the total elimination of light traffic in and out of Lindburgh as the 172 was doing touch and gos and working a traffic pattern when that accident happened. Technology has also come a long way to prevent midairs as well.


User currently offlineLehpron From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 7028 posts, RR: 21
Reply 17, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6475 times:

Quoting Lostintime (Thread starter):
Does San Diego Need A New Airport?

Your title is illogical as it does not take time into consideration. This could have made sense: "When Does San Diego Need A New Airport?[/quote] Wink

Quote:
said the UCSD professor may be correct in assuming residents won't fly more as they earn more

Residents are the majority of those who fly?  Yeah sure I remember two different figures from a few years ago: 1) the city of San Diego has a population on 2.5 million and 2) San Diego welcomes 14 million turists a year. Before I make any assumptions, who flys more, residents or turists?

Expanding an airport as opposed to building a new one can be seen as obviously cheaper when compared to a lack of funding with budget cuts, etc. I suppose people must believe something to make the decisions they make. Like building a new airport for the future is not worth waiting for the airport to get anywhere near full-capacity. Should we wait until the existing airport reaches capacity? SAN has experienced more growth than predicted with trends that points towards an earlier point of an economic capacity maxmium. On the otherhand, we cannot suddenly have the airport ready tomorrow -- that is not how it works -- it may take a decade to go through the politics and environmental issues before work on an airport starts.

Quote:
Carson contends the region does not need to spend billions. He said there are ways to hold the lid on operations, even as more people fly in and out of San Diego.

I am not going to assume what this guy's stance on the issue is (as I could be wrong), but if those in bold are his words (or journalists paraphrasing), then he does not know what the deal with SAN is.



The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
User currently offlineMurchmo From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 166 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6458 times:

...they've been working on this for a while now....there has even been initial looks at a reclaimed airport...but we all know it will never happen...the links below are for the San Diego airport site explaining a lot of issues, the second link is a map of the final 9 possible site locations. they actually narrowed it down a few months ago from 15 i think, thats why i remember this site.

...and yes they need a new airport! aside from the expansion that is needed for the area, there have always been safety concerns from the public about that awesome SD approach...

cheers!

http://www.san.org/authority/assp/index.asp

http://www.san.org/images/assp/FITF_Site%20Locations-Final_V03.PDF



to strive to seek to find and not to yield
User currently offlineAAden From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 835 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6455 times:

i love flying into lindberg field but it's does seem to be a little overcrowded and only one runway is unacceptable. they will need a need airport sometime in the near future

User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6341 times:

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 6):
I know, San Diego can use the Dallas model, You know, WN gets the good old airport, and all the other suckers get stuck miles out of town!

If they can handle Terrain, Brown is available....   

You can scratch North Island off the list as well:

I recall someone arguring with me about North Island already being "joint use" because of the airspace issue. Here's the proof I was right.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/m...tro/20060313-9999-1m13airport.html

Military representatives already object to the use of North Island, citing reasons such as base security, pilot safety and the use of live ordnance on some aircraft.

Somone else want to call BS on the military and live ordinance in a major city???? That's always a good idea. Maybe Military airports need to be somewhere else if this is such a safety concern.

If anything, this shows Joint use of Miramar isn't such a problem after all because the same issues that exist already with North Island and SAN woudl simply move to Miramar freeing up North Island.

[Edited 2006-03-13 18:03:14]

User currently offlineCoronado990 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1597 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6323 times:

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 20):
Over 150,000 a year make the drive, another 150 take a turboprop. This number will obviously grow without a solution placign capacity problems on LAX. San Diego has a responsibility to solve it's own problems

I always thought it was more in the 350,000 a year ballpark on the turboprops between SAN and LAX. Doing some quick math with over 50 flights a day and, say 20 people per flight, puts you roughly in that neighborhood. You would have to have a pretty low passenger count to only carry 150,000 passengers a year.

I've also heard that we loose almost 1 million to L.A. from people driving there but that is probably all airports combined. I know that many who reside in North County San Diego consider SNA and LAX to be their airport of choice just as much as SAN.

Sandwiched between cramped SAN & SNA, you would think there would be more service from Palomar Airport (CLD/CRQ) then there currently is. Namely Las Vegas, Sacramento and the Bay Area. I think US Airways would do quite well if they based a few Dash-8s a CLD and covered these markets plus PHX with some frequencies.



Uncle SAN at your service!
User currently offlinePhuebner From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 244 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6322 times:

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 21):
Somone else want to call BS on the military and live ordinance in a major city????

AWWWWW, well, well, well, Boeing7E7, here you are claiming expertise on a subject that you have no knowledge of. How can the military effectively operate without having to deal with and TRAIN with ordnance? In addition, most of the ordnance that the military deals with is inert. But that doesn't matter, the military treats all ordnance as live, whether it is or not. Your 2 or 3 years in the Airforce doesn't make you an expert. I just find it interesting how anti-military you are and how much you want the military out and yet you say otherwise until you make comments like this:

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 21):
Maybe Military airports need to be somewhere else if this is such a safety concern.

You don't even live here to know the type of impact (good I might add, just in case you try to twist my words) the military has. On top of that, why should there be an additional concern here by adding civilian traffic? By the way, I read that article as well that you mentioned. I don't see how that proves your point.

Your one of the types that goes out and campaigns against the military and yet once something happens your the first to cry on why the military hasn't done anything about it.



Remember this, Your Body is a temple Not a pull toy!
User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 6318 times:

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 22):
I always thought it was more in the 350,000 a year ballpark on the turboprops between SAN and LAX. Doing some quick math with over 50 flights a day and, say 20 people per flight, puts you roughly in that neighborhood. You would have to have a pretty low passenger count to only carry 150,000 passengers a year.

I stand corrected... That was December only.  

Closer to half a million. Total pax for Skywest and Eagle were 890K which included inbound and outbound. Even more reason.

http://www.san.org/documents/statistics/2005/Dec_05.pdf

[Edited 2006-03-13 18:24:18]

User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 6299 times:

Quoting Phuebner (Reply 23):
Your 2 or 3 years in the Airforce doesn't make you an expert.

Retired thank you very much.

Quoting Phuebner (Reply 23):
In addition, most of the ordnance that the military deals with is inert. But that doesn't matter, the military treats all ordnance as live, whether it is or not.

So it's not live then? Hmmm... The military said it was. When pointed out the issue was then Helicopters. I really wish the military could make up their mind on their story line.

Quoting Phuebner (Reply 23):
You don't even live here to know the type of impact (good I might add, just in case you try to twist my words) the military has. On top of that, why should there be an additional concern here by adding civilian traffic? By the way, I read that article as well that you mentioned. I don't see how that proves your point.

I spent most of my life there, I'm a native and the vast majority of my familiy lives there - four generations worth - and watched an economy collapse because of the military. Perhaps you weren't there for that. Perhaps as a visitor you should be content with the time you have there and be greatful the citizens supported you when you needed it and take that into consideration when the citizens ask you for something in return that has a far greater economic impact than you will ever have on the region.

Quoting Phuebner (Reply 23):
I just find it interesting how anti-military you are and how much you want the military out and yet you say otherwise until you make comments like this:

As a retired Military member I find it very disingenuous that they preach fraud, waste and abuse as the gospel, yet they clearly are unable to see such fraud commited in the public about Miramar and it's future use, they waste four airfields by using them inefficiently and abuse their position with the public by not being open and honest. But hey if the Marines are content to occupy a base bought and paid for with bribes by a corrupt politician then so be it I suppose. Such honor and dignity can be found in that.

[Edited 2006-03-13 18:35:02]

25 Phuebner : Let me add this, I think that Miramar would be a great place for an airport whether we share it with the military or not. I have always thought that S
26 Boeing7E7 : The military doesn't make the decision and the only other "way" outside of Miramar is to contract with a company that failed to show that a floating
27 Phuebner : At this point in time, it seems that everybody is throwing their hands up in the air and saying that the military facilities are our only options. I k
28 Boeing7E7 : At this point in time, it appears you share the same view of your leaders on this issue that the world should head your every call. Like the offer of
29 Coronado990 : Okay, today is a good day to put the Campo and Imperial sites to rest. What I am seeing out my back window right now is a mountain range full of snow
30 Post contains images JakeOrion : Considering the military was here first, they have every right to keep their current property. An example would be me coming to take over your backya
31 Phuebner : I agree, I think Brown Field is an option that should be looked at. Dude, you sound bitter. Did you retire on your own choice or was it forced upon y
32 Coronado990 : I hear this a lot. I am curious. Does anyone know why the city of San Diego did not except the $1.00 offer back in 1954? The base sat pretty much idl
33 JakeOrion : Miramar was originally offered to the city back in the late 40s-early 50s. However, the city stated it was "too far" from downtown, which, back in th
34 Coronado990 : Regardless of the airport situation, not wanting all that land for $1.00 seems like a waste. Does not matter what you use it for since the city limit
35 Boeing7E7 : Umm.. Sure... Perhaps the Military will allow the airspace interaction with NOLF and the Environmentalists will allow a mountain with 10 endagered sp
36 PanAm747 : Brown Field was offered to the city as a cargo airport. Residents, fearing the apocalypse - you know, airplanes - protested LOUDLY!! So, the idea tha
37 Post contains links Boeing7E7 : Brown Field was a proposed city/private partnership. It never stood a chance, not only because of the NIMBY's but also because of the technical probl
38 Travelin man : Nothing involving removing mountains or putting landfill in the ocean would EVER be approved. And if it was approved, it would be litigated by environ
39 Post contains links Coronado990 : Please consider this. It is from the following web-site: http://www.miramarairshow.com/miramar_history.htm In 1947, the Marines moved to El Toro in O
40 PanAm747 : SAN airport is closed to take-offs from 11:30 PM to 6:30 AM. Landings are permitted at all hours. Last scheduled flight is an HP/US flight from LAS,
41 Phuebner : Not really, it's too locked in to be viable. Not much room for expansion.
42 Boeing7E7 : It was.. Before Miramar was even a base. It was the first site extending across what is now the 163. It was debated to be used vs. fill in the bay wh
43 Boeing7E7 : Perpetuation of the urban legend. I was being sarcastic. An overlay only lasts about 5 years and only brings a runway back to what it was 5 years pri
44 Coronado990 : That's a good thing. I was hoping our city wasn't that stupid.
45 Post contains images Boeing7E7 : Ironically, perpetuation by those opposed.
46 Post contains links Travelin man : http://www.airnav.com/airport/KMYF I know Runway 28R is only 4577', but it looks like there would be room for extension of that runway. Granted, Mont
47 Post contains links Boeing7E7 : Miramar, yes. SAN no. Gilespi (sp) yes. The displaced thresholds are due to a long standing noise abatement agreement. The runway itself is 4500', th
48 Post contains images JakeOrion : So the only place to put a new airport (logically) is Miramar, and I don't see that happening any time soon as the military will not allow joint comme
49 Travelin man : What percentage of aircraft movements currently at SAN make up cargo, general aviation, and commuter planes from LAX? By moving those three elements,
50 Boeing7E7 : Only about 3-4% because the majority of them don't occur at peak times - about 5 years of life added. The commuter flights are continuous. Southwest m
51 Post contains links Boeing7E7 : The original article shows a nice picture of the terrain for SAN departing 27. http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2006...ws/top_stories/22_17_483_11_06.t
52 Smitty747 : We've all heard the major arguments for not moving the airport to Miramar: 1. Too much noise for those in UTC/La Jolla. Answer. Have you been to the b
53 Boeing7E7 : Well put.
54 Post contains images SJCRRPAX : You sound like such a typical San Diego Resident. I remember growing up in San Diego and when it rained everybody would run to the window to look at
55 Boeing7E7 : So your solution is an airport that costs $18 billion with a per pax cost that would make Denver's costs look cheap? That site is toast as is the des
56 Phuebner : You should just march onto Miramar and take it over yourself.
57 Boeing7E7 : That's a long march, the Air Force doesn't march much and we're more inclined to use our brains to find solutions rather than have a temper tantrum o
58 Post contains images Freedomtofly : Haha yes I always used to do that! Even though I live 500 miles to the north now, I still get excited if we get thunderstroms or hail or whatever. Oh
59 SJCRRPAX : I was not making a comment on where the airport should be, just making a comment that using Snow at the 3000 foot level in San Diego as an excuse not
60 Post contains images Boeing7E7 : No doubt. I played hookey from school with my parents on a number of occassions growing up there.   Never happen. Anything over about $8 Billion is
61 Lehpron : Would there be a 'turf war' between the Marines and the Navy if that were done? They may be ridiculous to you, but some have merit. The point is to b
62 Boeing7E7 : There already has been with the Navy not wanting Marines at North Island when the concept of moving them to Miramar was broached in the 90's. The Nav
63 Post contains images SJCRRPAX : Actually the Marines are stationed on every Navy Base. They guard the gates, and as far as I know there has never been a gate stolen. (I'm ex- Navy,
64 Boeing7E7 : Man. That's just wrong. I once had a Marine tell me that when they needed an airlift they'd call the Air Force because the Air Force would have five
65 JAAlbert : I live in San Diego, never been a member of the military, oppose the war in Iraq, etc., etc., etc. -- not considered a fan of the military establishme
66 Coronado990 : Well, yes. If freeways through the mountains are shut down and passengers can't get to it while the rest of the city hums along. Why create such a dy
67 AA717driver : What's wrong with expanding the airfield at Pendleton to handle the Miramar units and making Miramar all civialian? Then, the Marines don't have the N
68 UAL-Fan : I fly in and out of SAN weekly and find it rather boring. I've never experienced any sort of breathtaking dive while landing. I can also tell you tha
69 Post contains images SJCRRPAX : This is what is exactly is going to happen. I have no doubt in my mind, it makes too much sense. In fact I even wonder why this topic comes up at all
70 Post contains links and images Boeing7E7 : Ask the Department of the Navy. They're the ones that don't like the idea. Speaking of snow San Diego... Or Denver???? Typical of a West Coast spoke
71 Coronado990 : Great picture Boeing7E7. That peak is 45 miles away. The Campo site is another 25 miles beyond that. It would be like having everyone in Denver go to
72 Phuebner : The pick is on the front page of the SD Union-Tribune.
73 SJCRRPAX : ] YOu guys from San Diego still crack me up. I agree with you Campo would be a terrible place to put an airport, and you might be onto something with
74 Post contains links and images Coronado990 : Interesting article about dualistically using North Island and Lindbergh and the problems they may face merging traffic during certain crosswind condi
75 Boeing7E7 : No kidding????? Wow! Hold your cursor over the image and watch the magic of "signonsandiego.com" appear. Kinda looks like joint-use no???
76 CX747 : You guys are still beating this dead horse? Heck, it's not even a horse anymore but a bloody spot on the ground. The military IS NOT MOVING. What don'
77 PanAm747 : It is not a dead horse. The circumstances of San Diego are unique. I can't even begin to tell you what buying 3,000 acres of houses (or more for thos
78 CX747 : Your not talking with the military about joint use. You are screaming at them after they have already left the conversation. They have told you NUMERO
79 Post contains images Phuebner : How many times have I said this! All these people are seemingly "experts" in this field and we have the GALL to go against their thinking. How DARE W
80 SJCRRPAX : Great rant CX747! Classic Post Indeed. So you must be ex-marine. Us people in Northern California have seen nearly every base close down, and the mil
81 Phuebner : Northern Cal is great but why move to an area where the military will be literally spat upon?
82 CX747 : There is no such thing as an ex-Marine, only a former Marine or so I've been told. Actually, I'm headed off to OTS for the Air Force this May. So, in
83 Boeing7E7 : You come up with it. Let us know what you find with a viable cost structure with your expertise. We'll give you 20 years to come up with it. Good luc
84 Travelin man : You are acting like there is no such thing as the Base Realignment Commission, or that military fields aren't closing seemingly all the time. Remembe
85 Coronado990 : From past experience I truly believe the military will do whatever they want, whenever they want to do it, without rhyme or reason. So with that in mi
86 Post contains links Boeing7E7 : Here's the paper I read by this guy, it looks like a second draft. I saw the first that had mention of Boeing supporting teh study. Took some google d
87 IRelayer : The premise of the Professor's argument is ridiculous. He is making a (critically erroneous) simplifying assumption that the airport that we have now
88 CX747 : If SD needs a new airport, then build one. Come up with a way and do it. I find it remarkable that I have challenged the "Take Miramar" crowd to use t
89 IRelayer : Good idea that will never happen As far as El Toro goes, that ship has sailed. Impossible in every way imaginable. San Diego is the headquarters of t
90 Post contains images Phuebner : I don't know about that! That's thinking outside the box!
91 CX747 : I'm glad that my "outlandish" ideas are incompatable with what can go on. I know that several of them are far fetched. It was nice to see though that
92 CX747 : I just did a quick overview of San Diego on Google maps. I just started laughing I mean really laughing. The fact that you guys can't come up with a b
93 Phuebner : Obviously you don't understand what he was saying. That was his point. The "move the military out" ideas on Miramar are just as outlandish.
94 SJCRRPAX : I'd be curious where those areas are. Did you notice that San Diego has a lot of Canyons and Hills? DId you select the San Diego River, the agricultu
95 Post contains images Phuebner : UMMMMM, I live in San Diego and know Miramar quite well. What CX747 is saying is that though it might be a great place for an airport, the military h
96 EddieIAH : just wondering, what exactly does the military do with Camp Pendleton? its a vast amount of land don't worry, no political comment implied, just a que
97 Phuebner : It's headquarter for the 1st Marine division and other units. The whole vast of land is needed for training. They run tanks, shoot artillery etc. Tru
98 EddieIAH : thanks it'll be interesting to see how this plays out
99 Coronado990 : I think a little history is in order here... Quoted for "The History of Lindbergh Field" Port of San Diego. The U.S Army Corps took control of the fi
100 Post contains links and images Boeing7E7 : The entire county has been computer modeled and tested for compatible sites. A runway primary surface extends 10,000' from each end of the runway at
101 CX747 : Nice, finally something other than why Miramar is needed!!! Thank you Coronado!!!
102 Post contains links Boeing7E7 : They looked at it, click around at all the 32 sites looked at: Mission Bay Dredge/Fill San Diego River http://www.san.org/flash/assp/map_load.htm Nex
103 CX747 : I like that site! It made me laugh again because anything "civilian" is wayyy to expensive and harms the environment. Miltiary sites don't have any en
104 Boeing7E7 : You have no concept of the issue at hand. None at all. Even the estimated $8 Billion is a marginal cost for a two runway airport. Denver, with 6 runw
105 Phuebner : Was your bitterness beneficial to the Air Force?
106 Boeing7E7 : Hardly bitter as previously stated, but if ignorance and self servitude is the future, then the military is clearly headed in the wrong direction. Su
107 Lostintime : Even with all the discussion about locations and such it will be interesting after the vote in November what Bruce Henderson will dredge up into this
108 PanAm747 : I hope when Bruce Henderson passes away he can be buried under home plate at Petco Park. He always said the stadium would be built over his dead body
109 Post contains links Boeing7E7 : Maybe this will keep that money waster busy: http://www.voiceofsandiego.org/site/pp.asp?c=euLTJbMUKvH&b=1184811
110 Phuebner : We will have to figure out what 90 days he is going to be working for them and then during that time figure out what we need to get accomplished.
111 JakeOrion : I will say it one last time, Brown Field. They can remove the mountians and flatten that area out, NO PROBLEM. As far as the environmentalist go, who
112 Phuebner : No kidding, be prepared! Everybody, but a few, want to run the military out and if you tell them to hold on for a momment, they say, HOW DARE YOU GO
113 Post contains links Boeing7E7 : It's a County, not City issue. Try again. The endangered species are on the Federal List. I'm with ya, but it's not an option for a replacement airpo
114 Post contains images JakeOrion : My mistake (again), thanks. Grrrr...Federal...now thats hard to work around... I have 3 older sisters, all three of them are evil (one of them calls
115 CX747 : I'm glad that somebody finally acknowledged why the county wants Miramar. It is funny that other people here say the same thing just in round about w
116 Boeing7E7 : You mean to a solution that is so cost prohibitive it would never be built? Keep trying. According to you, the military making better use of 3 signif
117 Coronado990 : Come on now. It is very centrally located as well. As far as cheap goes...when was the cheapest route considered a bad thing? Would you prefer that t
118 IRelayer : Agreed...Miramar is cheap, central, and incredibly convinient (in terms of politics, timing, etc etc...). Thus the authority wants it because it is t
119 Phuebner : I am amazed that you keep on bringing up the BRAC thing. You, of all people being previous military, know that the military has to be prepared in all
120 CX747 : Hello all, how is everyone? I don't think the matter is trivial nor do I think a solution is easily had. I'm sure that Miramar is a perfect solution.
121 Phuebner : I joined the Navy because I love my country and I want to serve my country. Ever since I was a kid that is what I wanted to do. It sickens me to see
122 Boeing7E7 : The landlord has the final say, and that's not the tenant. What's wrong with being based at Pendleton, North Island, Point Loma, or Navy outlying fie
123 Phuebner : The problem is that you have been going back and forth between arguements in running the military out of Miramar to joint use efforts....which one is
124 Boeing7E7 : Always been joint use, but supporting moving a mix of aircraft to make it work. People that say all of those operations have to be at Miramar are the
125 SJCRRPAX : CX747, I must tell you I appreciate the sacrifice you will be making, and the loyalty you are showing to your country. We should all be proud that peo
126 Post contains links Boeing7E7 : Two UCSD professors shed a different light on the discussion: http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniont...b/20060317/news_lz1e17bernste.html Today, as San
127 PanAm747 : Also from that same article, there is a brief history of the workings between the armed forces (specifically the Navy) and the city of San Diego. Ther
128 Coronado990 : I have a copy of John Nolan Plan from 1926 right in front of me. One of the reasons Lindbergh Field was created was to relieve North Island from civi
129 Post contains links Boeing7E7 : I just hate to consider what the traffic will be like with the poor access to the airport with no solution. Imagine the nutty professors even conserv
130 Trvlr : I will be. Looks like the meeting is public. Aaron G.
131 Post contains links Phuebner : Low Landing Now you might think this is cool, which I think it is, but this is how Coronado beach will look like if it becomes a major airport. It wil
132 Post contains links Boeing7E7 : Debate results: Interesting admission by the UCSD professor.... Carson said it would be preposterous to pick the Yuha Desert site in Imperial County,
133 Coronado990 : I wonder how WN would react if the airport was moved out that far. I willing to bet they would pay the TIJ airport to just pave a taxiway onto this s
134 Boeing7E7 : No doubt. If the option is to build a maglev, they better run it to PHX and LAS because WN and HP aren't going to run those routes anymore. Airlines
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