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Why RR Trents On DL's 777's?  
User currently offlineAvi8tir From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 409 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 7721 times:
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Just seems odd that these are the only Rolls engines in the fleet. Whyd they choose them over PW or GE?


*Long live the Widget*
62 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4742 posts, RR: 45
Reply 1, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 7716 times:

they threw the letters P, R and G into a hat and picked one. R came out so they went with RR.

seriously tho, I don't know, I wished they had gone with GE90s.



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineManzoori From UK - England, joined Sep 2002, 1516 posts, RR: 34
Reply 2, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 7682 times:

Because they felt they were the best engine? Because they got a good deal? All of the above?

These may be the only RR engines in the current fleet but they have used them before... RB211-22Bs on their Tristars...

Rez
 Big grin



Flightlineimages DOT Com Photographer & Web Editor. RR Turbines Specialist
User currently offlineBoeing767-300 From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 659 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 7557 times:

God only knows... Wasn't it a SA)">DL 777 that was being demonstrated to South African Airways that had an engine problem on T/O.

Although the fact SA went A340 instead of 777 the above incident would certainly not have helped ............


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 7505 times:

There may have been some political overtones as well but DL has been a longstanding Rolls customer. The Trent is a very reliable engine.

Incidentally, AA maintains DL's Trents for them while DL maintains AA's PW2037s on the ex-TW 757s.


User currently offlineMarkATL From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 539 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 7424 times:

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 1):
they threw the letters P, R and G into a hat and picked one. R came out so they went with RR.

How could you say such a thing!! That is an outragous statement..... Everyone knows it was a dart board.



"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6431 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 7408 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 4):



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 4):
There may have been some political overtones as well but DL has been a longstanding Rolls customer.

So why did Delta choose Pratts for their 757s? Also, why did Delta choose GE for their newer 767-300ERs? RR was an option for both.

If Delta ordered the 787, I would probably expect GEnx engines, as GE is helping Delta restructure.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 7, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7350 times:

AA has a history of buying RR, CO of buying GE (except their 757s), NW buys PW, DL i'm convinced buys what's cheap at the time. I wish they'd have bought GE90s, not that there is anything wrong with Trent, but GE90 is the golden standard of jet engines.

GE has been using the fact they also run a gigantic commerical bank to get customers. Anyone who GE's capital division works out financial stuff for (which seems to be nearly everyone, the way airlines are doing) ends up buying GE engines. Surprise surprise.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineJetfixr757 From Jamaica, joined Jan 2006, 139 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7335 times:

The Rolls 757 will out perform the other 757's. The RB211-535 has alot of air to "spare" and end up giveing better performance and economy than the 2037, my fleet has a mixed bag of 2040's and 211's, all the pilots tell me the 211's out climb the 2040's, not knocking the 2040, it is a great engine as well.
Jet...


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26354 posts, RR: 76
Reply 9, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7330 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 6):

So why did Delta choose Pratts for their 757s? Also, why did Delta choose GE for their newer 767-300ERs? RR was an option for both.

At the time they ordered the 757, DL was as die hard a PW customer as NW or UA. It was fall out over this and the PW4000 engines on their initial 762s that caused them to switch over to GE for the rest of their 767s. As for the reason they chose the Trent for their small T7 fleet, at the time they purchased them, the Trent was considered the best engine for 656,000 pound T7s (DL took their planes in 1999, the GE-90-94 debuted in 2000 with AF)



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineDalb777 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2192 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7330 times:

I know DL has 777s still on order, probably with RR engines. What is the possibility of DL pulling a BA, except the opposite, and order GE engines if/when they order their next batch of 777s? Maybe GE can help DL get out of BK?


Geaux Tigers! Geaux Hornets! Geaux Saints! WHO DAT!!!
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26354 posts, RR: 76
Reply 11, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7258 times:

Quoting Dalb777 (Reply 10):
I know DL has 777s still on order, probably with RR engines. What is the possibility of DL pulling a BA, except the opposite, and order GE engines if/when they order their next batch of 777s? Maybe GE can help DL get out of BK?

Based on DL's structure, 777s really aren't ideal for them. A big 788/789 fleet would suit them much better.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineDL763DFW From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 73 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 7087 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 9):
It was fall out over this and the PW4000 engines on their initial 762s that caused them to switch over to GE for the rest of their 767s

Maybe you're referring to an initial order that was then changed, but DL 762s are all GE powered. In fact, the only PW powered 767s I know of are some of the 763ERs.

-DL763DFW


User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6862 posts, RR: 63
Reply 13, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 7054 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 4):
There may have been some political overtones as well but DL has been a longstanding Rolls customer. The Trent is a very reliable engine.

"Political overtones"???

What's interesting is that DL opted for RR before they made a final decision to buy 777s. I have a yellowing clipping (somewhere...) where they announced that if they decided to buy 777s they'd definitely have Trents. It was (and still is) the only example I can think of where an airline selected an engine before ordering the plane. Curious.

Quoting Jetfixr757 (Reply 8):
The Rolls 757 will out perform the other 757's.

In some ways. The PW2000 is actually more fuel efficient.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 9):
It was fall out over this and the PW4000 engines on their initial 762s that caused them to switch over to GE for the rest of their 767s.

I don't know where you got that from.  confused  Delta's first order for 767s was for 15 x -200s with GE. For the next ten years they ordered nothing but GE on four different orders for batches of 767-300s. They ordered PW on the 767-300ERs ordered between 1988 and 1996 but switched (back) to GE in 1997.

Quoting DL763DFW (Reply 12):
the only PW powered 767s I know of are some of the 763ERs.

...and four of their 767-300s


User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 14, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 7033 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 13):
In some ways. The PW2000 is actually more fuel efficient.

Indeed, but IIRC the RB211's have a longer "on wing" time, no?

The Trents are the lightest 777 engines, which of course helps with fuel efficiency. That may have also helped. There is a reason that the Trents are the best sold engines on the 772 and 773 (not counting the 77W of course)



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6862 posts, RR: 63
Reply 15, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 7019 times:

Quoting Kappel (Reply 14):
Indeed, but IIRC the RB211's have a longer "on wing" time, no?

Indeed, much better. That must go a long way to explain why RR got 77% of the customers on the 757 programme.


User currently offlineCaptaink From Mexico, joined May 2001, 5109 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 6838 times:

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 1):
I wished they had gone with GE90s.

Why? The RR's are a great choice of jet engine..

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 7):
but GE90 is the golden standard of jet engines.

Since when....?



There is something special about planes....
User currently offlineTinkerBelle From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 6781 times:

Per DL's website their 777ER's have 2 Rolls Royce Trent 892 which produce 92,000 lbs (41,700 kg) of thrust. Per Boeing website the same engines are supposed to produce 93,700 Ibs of thrust. Why the difference????

On a side note, someone here on A.net posted a picture of DL's brochure showing that their 777's have Pratt & Whitney 4090 engines.  biggrin 


User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4742 posts, RR: 45
Reply 18, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 6727 times:

I'd expect any add-on orders for the 777 as well as any future 787 orders to be delivered with GE engines.

just a hunch



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6862 posts, RR: 63
Reply 19, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 6704 times:

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 18):
I'd expect any add-on orders for the 777 as well as any future 787 orders to be delivered with GE engines.

If DL buy more 777-200ERs (which looks highly unlikely) it would be perverse for them to create a mixed RR/GE fleet which would still not be terribly big. But if DL ever buy 777-300ERs then, yes, GE would have an advantage...  Wink

DL's ties to CO, AF and KL (all of which have GE on their 777s) might also be a factor.

The 787? Hard to say. DL chose RR for their 777s over PW and GE for a reason. (Whatever it was.) And what if the mooted DL/NW merger happens? Wouldn't it make sense to stick with a single fleet of RR 787s?

Of course, if GE write DL a cheque to help them out of Chapter 11, anything is possible.

Anyway, I think what you really meant to say was...

"I'd hope any add-on orders for the 777 as well as any future 787 orders would be delivered with GE engines."  Wink


User currently offlineHS748 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6682 times:

It's obvious, British is ALWAYS best  Big grin

User currently offlineCPairDC10 From Germany, joined Feb 2006, 78 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6617 times:

Dont start another trans atlantic word war here !!

User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 6583 times:

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 7):
not that there is anything wrong with Trent, but GE90 is the golden standard of jet engines.

 laughing 

That aside, I belive the RR is the most efficient engine for the 777 on medium-long range routes. Whereas the GE takes over on the very far routes. One of the reasons the GE was selected for 772LR/773ER.

So perhaps DL found that RR hit the right 'sweet spots' for their network.


User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 6512 times:

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 22):
One of the reasons the GE was selected for 772LR/773ER.

The reason the GE90 was chosen over the test Trent 8104 was because Boeing were looking for a risk-sharing partner and RR weren't willing to do that. This really didn't leave Boeing with much choice.


User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 24, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 6475 times:

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 23):
and RR weren't willing to do that.

IIRC they were very interested. But GE outbid them, so they got the contract. I'm sure PM can verify that.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
25 RJ111 : That fact that RR weren't going to have an engine in the thrust capacity Boeing required until several years after GE, can't have helped their cause e
26 Post contains images AirPacific747 : hopefully more than god knows
27 777236ER : Which doesn't quite make sense. GE got a lucrative (and damaging to Boeing) exclusivity deal. The Trent 8104 would have had a 104klbf and 114klbf rat
28 Post contains images Lightsaber : But its entry into service had such poor dispatch reliability... There was no way to make up the fuel savings. The latest upgrade kits really help th
29 Geo772 : What a strange remark, the GE90 is a dog of an engine compared with the Trent 800. My favourite fact about the GE90 and the Trent is that the GE90 we
30 WorldTraveler : The chance is probably more likely that any future orders of the 777 will be of the -200LR or the 300ER. Since the 787 is growing into 777 territory,
31 PM : I wish I could. I don't even know if RR did 'bid'. From what I remember they were happy to take their chances in the market - as they were on the A34
32 Alitalia744 : Dog in what sense? Weight? it's made up in fuel economy... learn your facts.
33 PM : I don't subscribe to the "dog" comment but I am inclined to trust airlines (who pay real $$$ for these things) rather than A.Net armchair experts. Wh
34 Geo772 : It's a pain to work on. Access is poor on many components, has had a poor reliability compared with the Trent, not necessarily for in flight shutdown
35 PM : Quite. So it wasn't that they couldn't do such an engine as that there was no incentive to do so?
36 777236ER : The engine was made and ran at the thrust levels Boeing wanted. While the upwards limit was perhaps slightly lower than the GE90, had Boeing not want
37 ADVANCEDKID : Some important points are missed here when choosing a power plant. a Besides, fuel burn and engine grossweight, there is the TBO (time before overhaul
38 Post contains images Boeing767-300 : Very Damaging I'm sure. We will disregard your 777-236 Nickname and remember the exclusive RR stalwarts that have jumped on the GE90-115 Bandwagon na
39 Post contains links and images RJ111 : Good morning PM and 777236ER. Now, i'd never say anything on this website unless i was adament it was true. And i was pretty certain that the comments
40 N1120A : The Trent would have had to have been thoroughly reworked in order to get the thrust levels needed for a 775,000 pound 77W. Even still, nothing could
41 PM : There was a time when that was more or less true but in many cases those days are long gone. UA/PW : When UA come to replace their 747s, 767s and 777
42 LTU932 : Eventually, they'll have to kiss PW goodbye. The only new aircraft that will have a PW option is the A380 and the GP7200, and even then it's just 50%
43 PM : I'm not sure nationalism has ever played much of a role at BA - since they were privatised. They were very late to order any Airbuses and their prefe
44 F14D4ever : One of the more rational and objective posts in this thread. Well done.
45 Alitalia744 : AZ is extremely loyal to GE ever since the first D10s arrived in the early 70s, going as far as replacing (much like AF and KL) their early build 747
46 N1120A : LH engine choices are generally a crapshoot and are often based on purely commercial or technical reasons. The 3 engines on the 744A are all pretty e
47 PM : I have no idea what a "crapshoot" is but I would expect most airlines to choose engines for "commercial or technical reasons". Interestingly, the fir
48 Raggi : Well, I think that for the 333s, the GE CF6 was the Trent 700's most likely alternative, a more likely choice than the PW4168 (73), and given LH's 74
49 PM : ...which has so far gained about 43% of the business on the A330 against 30% for PW and 25% for GE.
50 RJ111 : China eastern ordered RR 763ERs and QF still flies some ex-BA Birds. Also BA specifically requested the RB211 on the 767. And given the commonality a
51 PM : Actually, no. China Yunnan ordered them. As I recall, Yunnan cancelled some RR 757s and took RR on the 767s to avoid paying cancellation fees. China
52 LTU932 : That's why I said If. Of course, the nationalism is no longer a factor, but I figured that before they were privatised, they in part ordered RR engin
53 Post contains images Rossbaku : Doesn't everyone. I'm marvelled every time I see a Triple 7 with these colossal engines attached...they're nearly as wide as the damned fuselage! Ros
54 Post contains images PM : I was agreeing with you! Dead right. BOAC to an extent but particularly BEA were told what to buy. BEA wanted 737s and 727s but had to buy 1-11s and
55 PM : No.
56 Kappel : Why exactly are the RB211's so bad on 767's? Are they too heavy? Or is the SFC just too high?
57 Post contains images LTU932 : They have been privatised for around 20 years? Damn, I thought they got privatised much later than that. I presume they wanted more thrust, since the
58 Post contains images PM : Actually, we're both wrong. It was 1974. What was I thinking of?! I was there! Sorry.
59 CHRISBA777ER : On the contrary fella - i'd suggest that the Rolls Powered 763ERs when it comes time to leave the BA fleet will be very, very sought after by Charter
60 LTU932 : Wow, 32 years already. Definitely much longer than the other European majors. I presume 1974 was the time when BEA and BOAC formed British Airways, r
61 ClassicLover : Wrong! BOAC and BEA merged in 1974, but privatisation of the new company, British Airways, didn't happen until 1985. The airline has been private for
62 Post contains images PM : Do you think so? It seems to me that rather few of the airlines you mention buy second-hand planes - however well they've been maintained. First Choi
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