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Emirates Near Miss With Russian 757 - Mumbai  
User currently offlineAnandt From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2005, 79 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 6900 times:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1457444.cms

Quote:

A major air disaster was averted on Saturday evening over Mumbai's skies after a Russian aircraft climbed to the altitude at which an Emirates aircraft with 300 passengers on board was flying in from the opposite direction.

Both aircraft had moved towards each other at 35,000 ft above Mumbai due to the Russian pilot's failure to comprehend the Air Traffic Control (ATC)'s instructions.

Eventually, it was the traffic collision avoidance system (TCAS) installed aboard the planes which alerted the pilots and made them switch to different altitudes.


[Edited 2006-03-21 16:32:40]

22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5772 posts, RR: 47
Reply 1, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6829 times:

EK502 was the Emirates flight. Anyone know the type?

I thought that all pilots are supposed to fluent on conversant English. Apparently the Russian pilot needs more training!



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineCalAir From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 298 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6797 times:

Would the russian 757 have been Vim Airlines?


British Caledonian...we never forget, you have a choice
User currently offlineGlidepath73 From Germany, joined Mar 2005, 1020 posts, RR: 45
Reply 3, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6779 times:

This reminds me of an terrible accident with a IL-76 and a 747 back in the mid 90's when both airliners collided due a misunderstanding of the Russian pilots regarding the altitude.
Really bad, they should think to separate the departure and arrival routes.
Otherwise it's just a matter of time until the next accident happens, as the incident from Saturday shows.
What does ICAO and IATA say regarding those bad route organization of Mumbai?

Regards,
Patrick



Aviation! That rocks...
User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5772 posts, RR: 47
Reply 4, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 6752 times:

Quoting Glidepath73 (Reply 3):
This reminds me of an terrible accident with a IL-76 and a 747 back in the mid 90's when both airliners collided due a misunderstanding of the Russian pilots regarding the altitude.

That accident occured outside of Delhi.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlinePlaneHunter From Germany, joined Mar 2006, 6816 posts, RR: 77
Reply 5, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6469 times:

Not comprehending to ATC instructions is a serious issue and should be punished by banning the airline from future operations in the airspace.


PH



Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
User currently offlineAnandt From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2005, 79 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6147 times:

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 5):
Not comprehending to ATC instructions is a serious issue and should be punished by banning the airline from future operations in the airspace.

It was a non scheduled flight and so banning is going to be of not much use in such cases. In any event these guys could operate under a new name. Best way might be to penalise the aviation authority of these countries!


User currently offlineMika From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 2881 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks ago) and read 6117 times:

English is the industry language and should be used in contact between ATC-A/C at all times all over the world where international traffic is present. Period.


The thing is that i think it´s actually not too uncommon that people chose to communicate in their home language instead of english when they fly/control airspace. That just lays the first of all the pieces needed for a disaster to happen, sad as it is.


User currently offlineKaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12480 posts, RR: 34
Reply 8, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks ago) and read 6093 times:

I don't disagree, but one of the major factors in the two most recent mid air collisions (over India and Switzerland) was the crew's confusion over what to do when faced with a TCAS warning. In both of those incidents, a contributory factor was that they failed to do as the TCAS called them to do.

You're quite right, Mika, in saying that many parts of the world, particularly France, still uses French out of sheer, well, Frenchness, on ATC communications, but the Spaniards and Germans still do so.

EK 502 is shown as an A330 in the airline guide, with a 3 class config, but if it's a healthy load, it could always be upgraded to a 772 or 773. A 3 class 332 seats around 240.


User currently offlineSebolino From France, joined May 2001, 3681 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (8 years 6 months 2 weeks ago) and read 6030 times:

Reminds me of this commercial for english lessons:

A German coastguard receives a message on the radio:

- "We are sinking ! We are sinking !"

- "What ... what are you thinking about ?" (with a German accent).


 Smile


User currently offlineCricket From India, joined Aug 2005, 2968 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5962 times:

After the Chakri-Dadri incident outside DEL - it was an Uzbek IL-76 not a Russian one - even reports of potential mid-air collisions get a lot of reportage. But it is correct that the airspace around BOM is a mess - tens of flights into BOM but it is also on the main Middle-East to South-East Asia track (which includes many SE Asia - Western Europe flights) which means that it deals with hundreds of flights every hour, but the equipment used by the ATC authorities has not been updated in a long time. It can barely keep up with the increase in domestic traffic, let alone flyover traffic.


A300B2/B4/6R, A313, A319/320/321, A333, A343, A388, 737-2/3/4/7/8/9, 747-3/4, 772/2E/2L/3, E170/190, F70, CR2/7, 146-3,
User currently offlineNimish From India, joined Feb 2005, 3237 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5894 times:

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 5):
Not comprehending to ATC instructions is a serious issue and should be punished by banning the airline from future operations in the airspace.


While this may indeed be true in this case, keep in mind that the Indian ATC may also have a heavy accent, and may further increase the communication barrier. I don't know if there's any thought of sending the ATC to "accent neutralization" courses that are run across India. Sometimes even I have a tough time understanding some ATC controllers (and I'm a native).



Latest Trip Report - GoAir BLR-BOM-BLR
User currently offlineAnandt From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2005, 79 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5865 times:

Quoting Nimish (Reply 11):
Indian ATC may also have a heavy accent

Even in the Queens land the further away you move from London English starts sounding like a foreign language  Smile


User currently offlineUshermittwoch From Germany, joined Jan 2004, 2965 posts, RR: 16
Reply 13, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5756 times:

So, how come nothing happened if the MISS was near...  gnasher 


Where have all the tri-jets gone...
User currently offlineITA350 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 158 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5284 times:

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 9):
Reminds me of this commercial for english lessons:

A German coastguard receives a message on the radio:

- "We are sinking ! We are sinking !"

- "What ... what are you thinking about ?" (with a German accent).


Smile

i remember seeing that recently

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...78514075251375&q=german+coastguard


User currently offlineSkymonster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5222 times:

Reminds me of that old joke (bastardised for this circumstance)...

Controller "Emirates 502 turn right 10 degrees for noise abatement"
Emirates "How much noise does an A330 make at 33,000'?"
Controller "Have you ever heard the noise that's made when an A330 hits a 757?"

Andy


User currently offlineAirIndia From United Arab Emirates, joined Jan 2001, 1642 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5113 times:

Quoting Nimish (Reply 11):
Indian ATC may also have a heavy accent

Maybe they should be imparted the Cal Center type vocational training and be made to put fake accents. Maybe even a name change  Wink


User currently offlineSpeedbird128 From Pitcairn Islands, joined Oct 2003, 1648 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4660 times:

Quoting Ushermittwoch (Reply 13):
So, how come nothing happened if the MISS was near...

They missed - and were near to each other at the time...



A306, A313, A319, A320, A321, A332, A343, A345, A346 A388, AC90, B06, B722, B732, B733, B735, B738, B744, B762, B772, B7
User currently offlineRIXrat From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 789 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4547 times:

If I remember correctly, the Il76 was using meters instead of feet, a common practice in the former USSR.

User currently offlineChris78cpr From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 2820 posts, RR: 50
Reply 19, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4510 times:

Quoting Anandt (Reply 12):



Quoting Anandt (Reply 12):
Even in the Queens land the further away you move from London English starts sounding like a foreign language

Lol, away from london? It gets harder and ahrder every day to understand some people in london! I walked into a pizza place and felt actually so misunderstood as none of the staff spoke bloody english!



5D2/7D/1D2(soon to be a 1Dx) 17-40L/24-105L/70-200F2.8L/100-400L/24F1.4LII/50F1.2L/85F1.2LII
User currently offlineMerlin From India, joined Mar 2006, 70 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4461 times:

The point here is wheather the pilots have done their job to avert a major disaster. YES. we all knw that the skies are getting crowded day by day and it is getting difficult for the CREWS both(ATC-and-COCKPIT) to handle the traffic.This is not only the incident where mishearing or not standing by the ATC instructions is concerned.THAT is the reason we got TCAS in the aircrafts to avoid unseen trouble.WE shud not forget 1 thing,the TCAS AND ATC INSTRUCTIONS are never on par with each other.Differernt countries have different accent for speaking,doesnt really mean they should have a english neutralisation course.Awareness is what is meant and the pilots involved in this incident did their job.Now if the investigation does report some error in the pilots,their career is at stake and the same with the ATC people.Lets leave assuming things till we have a complete true report.


"Aviation & Black hole carry same effect,once any where near it you're bound to get sucked in".
User currently offlineCsturdiv From Australia, joined Aug 2005, 1476 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4415 times:

Quoting Anandt (Reply 12):
Even in the Queens land the further away you move from London English starts sounding like a foreign language

I remember seeing an interview on on MTV with the band Oasis back in the mid to late 90s...I guess it was more mid 90s, this was when they were first breaking big here in the States. Anyway, MTV ran subtitles of the interview just because they were so hard to understand.



An American expat living and working in Australia
User currently offlineBoo25 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 294 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3651 times:

OMG - my sister was flying EK sat night , DXB-MEL (EK406 i think).

This has just chilled me.

Thank god all are safe.........


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