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CO And DL At TXL  
User currently offlineAdric10 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 17 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 5283 times:

So, I've flown the CO flight from TXL (Berlin) to Newark four times in the last month each time the plane has been, at most, 2/3 full (one time less than half).

I'm wondering if the Berlin-New York routes for CO and DL are making money for the companies? Does anyone have any info on this?

To me it's odd that traffic between NYC and Berlin is so little that CO is having trouble even 2/3 filling a 757.

On another (related) topic, does anyone know of airlines that are interested in flying non-stop Berlin to the US when the new BBI opens? Any word yet?

39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 5258 times:

Quoting Adric10 (Thread starter):
To me it's odd that traffic between NYC and Berlin is so little that CO is having trouble even 2/3 filling a 757.

The problem is probably that they both fly to New York. Maybe one to NY and one to SFO would be better.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17663 posts, RR: 46
Reply 2, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 5224 times:

Quoting Adric10 (Thread starter):
To me it's odd that traffic between NYC and Berlin is so little that CO is having trouble even 2/3 filling a 757.

Makes you wonder about DL filling a 763 Wink



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 5224 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 1):
The problem is probably that they both fly to New York. Maybe one to NY and one to SFO would be better.

TXL-SFO? Yeah right, like that would work. If anything, DL would switch their flight to ATL, but that's about it. TXL simply does not have the demand for anything else beside NYC, and perhaps another connecting airport. Hence why there were so many failures in the BER-USA market. It is surprising that the current flights are doing rather well.


User currently offlineAlias1024 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2778 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 5210 times:

It's winter. Or at least it was when you were flying. Not much tourist demand to Berlin in February. Only the higher yielding business travel. Just because the flight was 2/3 full doesn't mean CO is losing money.


It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
User currently offlineBerlinflyer From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 94 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 4931 times:

Now that BBI is definite to come, they will keep building up the market to be in the best position when connecting traffic becomes possible. I have heard form CO people that the outbound traffic from TXL to EWR is quite good right now. In the summer it is never a problem to fill the NYC planes both ways anyway.

User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26605 posts, RR: 75
Reply 6, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 4921 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 1):
The problem is probably that they both fly to New York.

Only one flies to New York  wink 

Quoting Thorben (Reply 1):
Maybe one to NY and one to SFO would be better.

SFO would be a quick route to disaster. Neither of the carriers is particularly strong at SFO at all. Also, you automatically have to use at least a 767 on the route, as the 757 doesn't have the range to do it. Next, you would require 1.5 planes per day as opposed to 1 plane per day because of the flying times. Finally, San Francisco is not as big as you think it is.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11752 posts, RR: 62
Reply 7, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 4916 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 1):
Maybe one to NY and one to SFO would be better.

Berlin-San Francisco nonstop? Under what possible circumstances could you ever envision that route sustaining a regular, nonstop airline flight?


User currently offlineFlyDeltaJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 1893 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 4890 times:
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DL78 JFK TXL went out today with 9 seats in Buisness and 14 seats in coach thats not all that bad. So I am not seeing a problem with filling a 763.


The only valid opinions are those based in facts
User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3489 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 4834 times:

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 8):
DL78 JFK TXL went out today with 9 seats in Buisness and 14 seats in coach thats not all that bad. So I am not seeing a problem with filling a 763.

That's what was left over right? I certainly hope they didn't fill 23 seats! Wow!

Jeremy


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 4812 times:

And DL obviously gets the cargo revenue.

User currently offlineAirzim From Zimbabwe, joined Jun 2001, 1215 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 4812 times:

Regardless of the loads, CO has a significant cost advantage over Delta on the route. Doesn't mean Delta's losing money or vice versa, just means CO can outlast DL on the route if it ever beacame a dog route. Probably only big enough for one carrier.

User currently offlineCory6188 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2692 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 4805 times:

I think he means the number of empty seats, which on the whole, especially in Y, isn't too bad. However, 9 empty in Business is rather high, if you ask me.

User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 4800 times:

I'm sorry but a 757 does not have a significant cost advantage over a 767. And even what advantage it does have because of the aircraft is more than offset by the revenue generating capability of the 767. CO might have some cost advantage right now because of their overall lower costs but DL's costs will be lower than CO's before very long if they are not already there. DL had one of the lower CASMs among legacy airlines before it went into BK.

I have flown JFKTXL on DL many times, all the way back to A310s acquired from Pan Am and flown by ex-PA crew members. Berlin is a longtime Pan Am strength city and DL acquired many Berlin customers w/ the PA acquisition. I don't know how many they kept during the time they suspended service over the past couple years but they didn't come to any other US airline since none served the US market. Berlin passengers have a long history of flying to FRA on LH for their intercontinental travel needs. I suspect DL and CO can change to an extent for western hemisphere travel but TXL is still very heavily controlled by LH.


User currently offlineLetsgetwet From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 609 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 4778 times:

CO loads to and from TXL are 70% > for March. That's not bad especially since BF is 80%> . Come summer, you will have aproblem if you want to non-rev.

User currently offlineLetsgetwet From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 609 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 4769 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 13):
Berlin passengers have a long history of flying to FRA on LH for their intercontinental travel needs. I suspect DL and CO can change to an extent for western hemisphere travel but TXL is still very heavily controlled by LH.

Why would you want to fly through FRA when you can fly non-stop? And probably for less $$.


User currently offlineFlyabunch From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 517 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 4729 times:

Quoting Letsgetwet (Reply 15):
Why would you want to fly through FRA when you can fly non-stop? And probably for less $$.

So you don't have to fly on a 757. I am flying this route in June and I picked the FRA routing to avoid the 757. Now I love the 757 but not for that long a flight. I will take the wide body any day...even with a connection.

Mike


User currently offlineLetsgetwet From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 609 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 4717 times:

Quoting Flyabunch (Reply 16):

So you don't have to fly on a 757. I am flying this route in June and I picked the FRA routing to avoid the 757. Now I love the 757 but not for that long a flight. I will take the wide body any day...even with a connection

I know this is off topic, but this is one argument that I could never understand. Other than having the extra aisle, there really is no difference IMHO. Especially since CO's 757 are configured with the 777 style interior and the center lavs.


User currently offlineFlyabunch From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 517 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 4696 times:

[quote=Letsgetwet,reply=17]I know this is off topic, but this is one argument that I could never understand. Other than having the extra aisle, there really is no difference IMHO. Especially since CO's 757 are configured with the 777 style interior and the center lavs.


Its really just a personal feeling about long distance flying. I fly a lot and I guess I just associate domestic flying with narrow body planes and international flying with wide body planes. I have flown across the pond on narrow body and it was OK but I think I am much more relaxed and rested when the plane is a 767, 777, or even a 330. I do prefer Continental and when I have a choice I fly Business First, but sometimes if I have to fly coach, the wide body is even more important.

Mike


User currently offlineLetsgetwet From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 609 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 4647 times:

Quoting Flyabunch (Reply 18):
Its really just a personal feeling about long distance flying. I fly a lot and I guess I just associate domestic flying with narrow body planes and international flying with wide body planes. I have flown across the pond on narrow body and it was OK but I think I am much more relaxed and rested when the plane is a 767, 777, or even a 330. I do prefer Continental and when I have a choice I fly Business First, but sometimes if I have to fly coach, the wide body is even more important

I guess I'm a little older than you, but I remember crossing the pond in a 707 and considering it a luxury.


User currently offlinePSA727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 974 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 7 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 4619 times:

Quoting Letsgetwet (Reply 17):
Especially since CO's 757 are configured with the 777 style interior and the center lavs.

Are you sure you're not referring to CO's 767s?
I believe the 757 has 2 lavs in the back and 1 just behind J class.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 13):
Berlin is a longtime Pan Am strength city and DL acquired many Berlin customers w/ the PA acquisition. I don't know how many they kept during the time they suspended service over the past couple years but they didn't come to any other US airline since none served the US market.

Actually one of my closest friends in Berlin was working for PA and then
DL at TXL until DL pulled its operations out of there.
His basic summary of the situation was that DL really didn't understand
the German-originating traffic as best they could. And that is how LH
was able to come in and take control of the market share.
You have to remember that LH really wasn't a strong player at TXL
before re-unification, whereas PA was. DL basically handed it to them.



fly high, pay low...Germanwings!
User currently offlineLetsgetwet From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 609 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4527 times:

Quoting PSA727 (Reply 20):
I believe the 757 has 2 lavs in the back and 1 just behind J class.

And one in front just behind the cockpit.


User currently offlineZone1 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1035 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4527 times:

Quoting Flyabunch (Reply 18):
Its really just a personal feeling about long distance flying. I fly a lot and I guess I just associate domestic flying with narrow body planes and international flying with wide body planes. I have flown across the pond on narrow body and it was OK but I think I am much more relaxed and rested when the plane is a 767, 777, or even a 330. I do prefer Continental and when I have a choice I fly Business First, but sometimes if I have to fly coach, the wide body is even more important.

Just pretend that you are riding in the upperdeck of a 747. Actually the 757 is more comfortable than the upper deck of a 747 because of the fusalage curve.



/// U N I T E D
User currently offlineMarkATL From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 540 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4484 times:

Quoting PSA727 (Reply 20):
You have to remember that LH really wasn't a strong player at TXL
before re-unification, whereas PA was

Actually LH wasn't a player at all before re-unification. Only US, UK and French airlines were allowed to fly to Berlin. If I remember at the end they had a minority interest in Euro Berlin with Air France. This why back then Air Berlin was a US flagged airline.

It all seems so strange now, but oddly during the cold war it didn't. I remember flying once from Bremen to Templehof on a Pan Am ATR. Didn't think anything of it. Personally I like the fact that LH took their rightful position of dominance in Berlin.



"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4927 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (8 years 7 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4433 times:
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Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 12):
However, 9 empty in Business is rather high, if you ask me.

9 empty translates to 27 seats filled out of 36. That's about 75% LF which is not bad at all for Business on the TXL route. Of course, TXL has never been a major premium cabin filler kind of route though this time round, it has been performing better in the J cabin than DL's previous attempts at TXL transatlantic service. Of course, Berlin is now a more developed market as well (more tourists, more business, etc.) so any attempts to determine the route's viability based on previous experiences is like comparing apples to oranges. FWIW, the last time I flew JFK-TXL (about two weeks ago on a Monday night), we went out with 1 empty J seat and about 15 empty Y seats.

Another indication of the J cabin situation is that DL has been increasingly limiting the availability of J cabin award and upgrade seats this month and into spring/summer. TXL used to be one of the few routes last year that I could easily get a J seat using miles/upgrade certificates. Of course, it's still not like CDG or other business-heavy destinations, but it is on an upward trend.


25 Post contains images FXramper : HOT RUMOR!?!? Look for AA to start a route to a 2nd destination to Germany. Possible routes include ORD-DUS, JFK-DUS, or JFK-TXL. Merry Christmas Patr
26 N1120A : 9 empty out of 36 is not bad at all What in the world are you talking about? The trip costs for a 400,000 pound 763ER are astronomically higher than
27 LTU932 : They were pretty much non-existent until 1990. What about SU and Interflug? I'm pretty sure both also had some kind of operations out of Berlin.
28 N1120A : I think they were talking about out of Tegel, Tempelhof and Gatow
29 DFW13L : Just curious, what kind of IFE does CO provide on the 757 in coach? Does it have PTVs? I'm thinking about possibly trying to burn some FF miles this
30 N1120A : CO is introducing an AVOD PTV system on the 757. Right now, they don't carry PTVs (the 767s and 777s do), but soon the 757s will have the most sophis
31 Panamair : I thought AVOD was only being introduced for BusinessFirst on the 757s? Have they now included the Y cabin in the upgrade too?
32 N1120A : This is what I have heard.
33 Adric10 : Actually, I found Y class in the 757 quite comfortable. I was worried about being on a narrowbody for 8.5 hours, too, but I was pleasantly surprised.
34 Johnnybgoode : yep, this one's been floating around for quite some time, so I'd personally call it a cooled off rumor. I'd put my money on ORD-JFK. I think we all a
35 Mats : American actually served Berlin-Tegel before; they flew briefly from Berlin to Chicago with a 767. Delta has also served Berlin-Atlanta in the past. T
36 Post contains images KL662 : Obviously, wintertime isn't going to see the highest loads, but I flew EWR-TXL last week and the flight was full. Wasn't expecting that, since the se
37 MarkATL : I assume the Soviet Union had to grant Interflug those rights. Until 1990 the four sectors (US, UK, Franch and USSR) were actually soverign to those
38 Eyeonthesky17 : The truth of the matter here is that DL can't give the J cabin away and neither can CO. Check the published discounts in Business Class. They'll both
39 MX757 : We are currently installing AVOD in BF only on the 752s at this time. Y class still has the drop down screens with selected movies and TV shows. Ther
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