Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Boeing-Qantas Wooed By 747-8 Efficiency Stats  
User currently offlineHalibut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 9 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 20927 times:

Boeing's still talking up the 747-8 !

If Boeing's #'s are accurate regarding the 747-8 , the 747-8 could eat into the A380's sales ????

  

Halibut

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au.../0,5744,18579060%255E23349,00.html

Boeing lets fly with a jumbo sales pitch
Qantas is being wooed with a barrage of 747-8 efficiency statistics, Steve Creedy reports


"We've really been able to make some significant breakthroughs in the fuel efficiency on the 747-8 - with the engines, with the aerodynamic improvements, as well as significant improvements in the operating costs," Boeing Commercial Airplanes vice-president of product development, Daniel Mooney, told a recent briefing in Sydney.

"When we compare it to the A380, our assessment is that the 747-8 will have better seat mile costs, and significantly - in the order of over 25 per cent - better trip costs."

[Edited 2006-03-23 23:26:25]

256 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2829 posts, RR: 42
Reply 1, posted (8 years 9 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 20857 times:

Quoting Halibut (Thread starter):
"We've really been able to make some significant breakthroughs in the fuel efficiency on the 747-8 - with the engines, with the aerodynamic improvements, as well as significant improvements in the operating costs," Boeing Commercial Airplanes vice-president of product development, Daniel Mooney, told a recent briefing in Sydney.

"When we compare it to the A380, our assessment is that the 747-8 will have better seat mile costs, and significantly - in the order of over 25 per cent - better trip costs."

Sure, but I believe that both Airbus and Boeing will take baths on the A380 and 748. The only reason QF can even look at something like this right now is because it has heavy political constriants on route structures keeping carriers like EK and SQ from competing on their bread and butter routes.

Large planes are very vulnerable to fragmentation. QF has a bye on this round, but whoever finds a way to fly a smaller plane with a similar CASM in will start eating their lunch.


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 9 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 20825 times:

Quoting Halibut (Thread starter):
If Boeing's #'s are accurate regarding the 747-8 , the 747-8 could eat into the A380's sales ????

Yes, QF will put 480 seats into the A380, just 30 more then a typical B747-8i. As said by Daniel Mooney says this could provide spectacular structural efficiency & fuel savings per seat!

 scratchchin 


User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 3, posted (8 years 9 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 20825 times:

Quoting Halibut (Thread starter):
If Boeing's #'s are accurate regarding the 747-8 , the 747-8 could eat into the A380's sales ????

If Boeing's numbers are accurate (and that's a big IF) and if they are based on typical real-world scenarios (which they almost certainly are not) then the new JumboJet would eat all of the WhaleJet's potential sales. Since Boeing has certainly chosen scenarios that are optimal for the JumboJet rather than typical of what airlines fly, real world numbers will not be so weighted toward the JumboJet.


User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9268 posts, RR: 21
Reply 4, posted (8 years 9 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 20825 times:

A380 heavier by 18%, I'd say that is significant, and I believe it... I think Boeing is very smart with their design of the A380.

How do fuel capacities between the A380 and B747-8 compare (or contrast...)? The article stated that the 747-8 will consume less fuel than the 747-400, but have increased range, which is a considerable improvement in fuel efficiency. It seems to me that this plane will be much more economically efficient than the oversized pig-with-wings A380, and this plane also offers more options such as sleeping quarters for passengers. Airbus would have to remove many seats to put in some sleeping quarters for their passengers.

Maybe I am being overcritical, but I just don't see the A380 flying, pardon the pun



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineStarrion From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1129 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (8 years 9 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 20793 times:

These PR reports are getting downright annoying. What's next?

Lufthansa seduced by suave CASM stats of the 747-8?

Kingfisher swoons for the debonair A380?


Please. Both of the manufacturers are trying to get the airliners to commit to the heavy aircraft. Release a PR notice when you get an LOI. I don't think anyone needs to know that the sales reps have completed yet another a$$-kissing session with a potential customer.



Knowledge Replaces Fear
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 6, posted (8 years 9 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 20754 times:

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 1):

Large planes are very vulnerable to fragmentation. QF has a bye on this round, but whoever finds a way to fly a smaller plane with a similar CASM in will start eating their lunch.

Yes, exactly.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 2):

Yes, QF will put 480 seats into the A380, just 30 more then a typical B747-8i.

Bollocks. 450 seats on a JumboJet is not "typical" but a reference number. The comparable reference number for the WhaleJet is 555. Will QF put 450 seats in a JumboJet? Absolutely not -- probably not even 400.


User currently offlineSwissy From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 1734 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (8 years 9 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 20729 times:

Well well well, how sweet, bashing the A guys about the 350/380 non stop about data and performance and there is no market for it but now there is the 747-8 oh hello "it must be true" what B is saying about the 478...................
and it is as of now a paper plane............

I guess even Boeing is admitting that there is actually a marked for the 380,
why would they come out with a new version?? Because they would loose
all there loyal 747 customers to A.

Cheers, Big grin


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 9 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 20699 times:

Steeler83 fyi: the A388 has 45% more floor space then the 748i, something´s fishy..

User currently offlinePlaneHunter From Germany, joined Mar 2006, 6937 posts, RR: 77
Reply 9, posted (8 years 9 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 20699 times:

Sounds as if Boeing had tested the A380 lately...  Wink

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 1):
QF has a bye on this round, but whoever finds a way to fly a smaller plane with a similar CASM in will start eating their lunch.

If there weren't these slot restrictions...

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 4):
It seems to me that this plane will be much more economically efficient than the oversized pig-with-wings A380

The airlines will decide which one is more efficient - and btw - their decisions won't be influenced by such irrelevant aspects like the looks of an aircraft.

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 4):
and this plane also offers more options such as sleeping quarters for passengers. Airbus would have to remove many seats to put in some sleeping quarters for their passengers.

How would a plane with less floor space offer more options for on-board amenities?  scratchchin 

PH



Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
User currently offlineStarrion From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1129 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (8 years 9 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 20611 times:

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 4):
and this plane also offers more options such as sleeping quarters for passengers. Airbus would have to remove many seats to put in some sleeping quarters for their passengers.

How would a plane with less floor space offer more options for on-board amenities?


______

Boeing is talking about using the attic space behind the hump to offer this. It's currently unused and cannot be used for seating because of the lack of emergency exits. It could be used for berthing mid-flight without impact the number of seats.



Knowledge Replaces Fear
User currently offlineHalibut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 9 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 20593 times:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 6):
Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 1):

Large planes are very vulnerable to fragmentation. QF has a bye on this round, but whoever finds a way to fly a smaller plane with a similar CASM in will start eating their lunch.

Yes, exactly.

I agree as well & great point . Something I wanted to add though , being that the 747-8 is smaller than the a380 . Would it be fair to say the Boeing 747-8 could have a larger market & have more to offer airlines due to its smaller size ?

Also , regarding fragmentation ! Boeing has that dept covered = 787 !  idea 

Halibut


User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 12, posted (8 years 9 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 20593 times:

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 4):

How do fuel capacities between the A380 and B747-8 compare

The A380 carries 20,000 gallons more fuel - though both aircraft have similar ranges (~8,000 miles).

A 747-8i would in reality hold 380-410. I really don't see 450 going on there. Not even the way Air France or Emirates pack a plane.

747-8i looks as if it will be at worst, competitive in terms of CASM. I'm sure A380 has 747-8i beat for cargo capacity in passenger configuration.

As far as Qantas goes, I think there's a reason they ordered 65 787's. They're shifting their strategy. They don't want just long range major hub to major hub anymore. They want to hit more cities, more frequently. I think that's their strategy to deal with Emirates and Singapore.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineHalibut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 9 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 20566 times:

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 1):
Sure, but I believe that both Airbus and Boeing will take baths on the A380 and 748

Perhaps ! But Boeing didn't bet the entire farm on it , airbus did !

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 3):
If Boeing's numbers are accurate (and that's a big IF) and if they are based on typical real-world scenarios (which they almost certainly are not) then the new JumboJet would eat all of the WhaleJet's potential sales. Since Boeing has certainly chosen scenarios that are optimal for the JumboJet rather than typical of what airlines fly, real world numbers will not be so weighted toward the JumboJet.

Zvezda ,
What if Boeing's stat's were 50 % accurate ? Lets say you cut Boeing's claims in half . What would that spell for the a380 ?

Halibut


User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9268 posts, RR: 21
Reply 14, posted (8 years 9 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 20505 times:

For you people who don't understand how the 747-8 can have things such as sleeping quarters, I went onto Boeing's website to get more information on the 747, about what it would look like, and I also did a google search and found a website that had images of what the interior would feature. On this site was info about the possibility of sleeping quarters above the coach section of the fuselage... If memory serves me correctly, that google search took me to a boeing link...

I will also do another google seach on the 747-8 to see if I can find that site again.



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineHB88 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 817 posts, RR: 31
Reply 15, posted (8 years 9 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 20417 times:

Isn't this just a rehash of that Boeing 747-8 puff-piece discussed in FI on 02/03/06? (but pitched to a potential customer).

User currently offlineAndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 9 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 20395 times:

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 9):
their decisions won't be influenced by such irrelevant aspects like the looks of an aircraft.

If airlines bought airplanes for looks, the Concorde would still be flying.  cry 

I think what is happening is that Boeing lately has been spot on for their airplane performance statistics. The 773R has already been improved 1.5%. So if they claim 748 improvements, most people may actually believe those numbers.


User currently offlineRentonView From United States of America, joined May 2005, 128 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 9 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 20337 times:

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 14):
For you people who don't understand how the 747-8 can have things such as sleeping quarters, I went onto Boeing's website to get more information on the 747, about what it would look like, and I also did a google search and found a website that had images of what the interior would feature. On this site was info about the possibility of sleeping quarters above the coach section of the fuselage... If memory serves me correctly, that google search took me to a boeing link...

Check out this slideshow. The third image is my favorite. Who knew there was so much headroom up there? Does anyone have an idea what the max. height would be?


User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 18, posted (8 years 9 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 20337 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 8):
the A388 has 45% more floor space then the 748i

Keesje, you're entitled to your opinion that everything Airbus is perfect and everything Boeing is crap, but you're not entitled to your own reality. Here are floor areas:
B747-400: 372 sq meters
B747-8I: 407 sq meters
A380-800: 552 sq meters

The number for the B747-8I is understated because it does not include the attic space offered for passenger bunks. The number for the WhaleJet is overstated because so much of the upper deck near the windows is unusable space. Even without considering these issues and just comparing the raw numbers, the WhaleJet has 35% more floor area than the new JumboJet and 48% more than the old JumboJet. Taking into account the two issues above, the WhaleJet probably has about 10-15% more usable floor area than the new JumboJet and about 40% more than the old JumboJet.

Quoting Halibut (Reply 13):
Zvezda ,
What if Boeing's stat's were 50 % accurate ? Lets say you cut Boeing's claims in half . What would that spell for the a380 ?

Cutting Boeing's claims in half has nothing to do with reality. When CASM are equal, airlines will choose the smaller aircraft 99% of the time if the purchase prices are comparable. So, Boeing just need to match the WhaleJet's CASM in order to take the lion's share of the VLA market. Airbus need a decisively better CASM to achieve significant WhaleJet sales.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 12):
I'm sure A380 has 747-8i beat for cargo capacity in passenger configuration.

Actually, no, it's the other way around. The WhaleJet's undercarriage takes up a lot of the space that would normally be available for cargo. Also, the JumboJet is a longer aircraft. By weight or volume, a -8 JumboJet with a full passenger load can carry more cargo than a WhaleJet with a full passenger load.


User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4865 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (8 years 9 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 20289 times:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 6):
Bollocks. 450 seats on a JumboJet is not "typical" but a reference number. The comparable reference number for the WhaleJet is 555. Will QF put 450 seats in a JumboJet? Absolutely not -- probably not even 400.

Um sorry to burst your bubble but QF already seats 412 pax in its 744s, give QF a 748 and they will put in at least 430 pax if not 440. QF has sardine-can 31" seat pitch.



56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9268 posts, RR: 21
Reply 20, posted (8 years 9 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 20289 times:

RentonView, that was the site that I mentioned had that room for sleeping areas!!! That was the one...  
I came across those images while doing a google image search on the 747-8. There was a complimentary article that stated that the A380 would have to have a few sections of its seats removed to include those ammenities. There is a ton of room above the main cabin in the 747-8; I was amazed myself...

[Edited 2006-03-24 00:52:43]


Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 21, posted (8 years 9 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 20250 times:

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 19):

Um sorry to burst your bubble but QF already seats 412 pax in its 744s, give QF a 748 and they will put in at least 430 pax if not 440. QF has sardine-can 31" seat pitch.

That configuration was chosen years ago. A better indication of what QF will do now is the announced number of seats for the WhaleJet -- unless you want to argue that QF would have liked to fit 555 seats in the WhaleJet but couldn't due to payload/range limitations.


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 35
Reply 22, posted (8 years 9 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 20232 times:

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 4):
A380 heavier by 18%, I'd say that is significant, and I believe it...



Quoting Keesje (Reply 8):
Steeler83 fyi: the A388 has 45% more floor space then the 748i, something´s fishy..

The A380 is a great deal more than 18% heavier than the proposed 748. That wouldn't matter if the extra weight was offset by a proportionate increase in passenger numbers. But, as is made clear in the article, the '18%' figure refers to the A380 being 18% heavier PER SEAT.

"Boeing says the 747-8 also wins when it comes to structural efficiency. It says the A380 is 18 per cent heavier than the 747-8 in terms of operating empty weight per seat, a measure of structural efficiency, and would need to be stretched to 650 seats to match its competitor."

So the A380 is bigger, heavier, and thirstier than the 748; but the extra size only translates into a less-than-proportionate advantage in passenger numbers. Boeing claims that the A380 would have to carry 650, instead of 555, to be competitive in terms of seat-mile costs.



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 23, posted (8 years 9 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 20173 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 22):
The A380 is a great deal more than 18% heavier than the proposed 748. That wouldn't matter if the extra weight was offset by a proportionate increase in passenger numbers. But, as is made clear in the article, the '18%' figure refers to the A380 being 18% heavier PER SEAT.

The OEW of the new JumboJet is 198,666 kg. The OEW of the WhaleJet is 277,745 kg. Both are manufacturer's specs and represent optimistically light cabin configurations. Realistic OEWs for cabin configurations that could be used by a real airline are about 200,000 to 205,000 kg (without SkySuites) for the JumboJet and about 290,000 to 295,000 kg for the WhaleJet.


User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9268 posts, RR: 21
Reply 24, posted (8 years 9 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 20173 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 22):
The A380 is a great deal more than 18% heavier than the proposed 748. That wouldn't matter if the extra weight was offset by a proportionate increase in passenger numbers. But, as is made clear in the article, the '18%' figure refers to the A380 being 18% heavier PER SEAT.

Woah... Ok, that is even more believable...

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 22):
"Boeing says the 747-8 also wins when it comes to structural efficiency. It says the A380 is 18 per cent heavier than the 747-8 in terms of operating empty weight per seat, a measure of structural efficiency, and would need to be stretched to 650 seats to match its competitor."



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 22):
So the A380 is bigger, heavier, and thirstier than the 748; but the extra size only translates into a less-than-proportionate advantage in passenger numbers. Boeing claims that the A380 would have to carry 650, instead of 555, to be competitive in terms of seat-mile costs.

And would Airbus really consider making such a stretch, pardon the pun. They'd have to take a rational approach, and I don't think adding another 100 passengers is very rational. Although it may be. I am just not sure of where to go with this...



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
25 Zvezda : A WhaleJet stretch is certainly under consideration at Airbus for an introduction of around 2015. The wing was specifically designed to support a lar
26 NAV20 : I think the short answer is that it isn't feasible at current available engine power, Steeler83. it looks as if the maximum longhaul passenger load o
27 BoomBoom : But doesn't Airbus do the same thing when pitching tha A380?
28 Halibut : Interesting indeed Zvezda , So Boeing's goal is to basicly do as you state above , match or exceed , if possible , airbus's a380 CASM . Another inter
29 Post contains images Zvezda : Shhhh!! One can get flamed around here for even suggesting the possibility.
30 Ruscoe : This information is from Airbus Website and Publications; July 1994 Airbus proposes a 570 seat A3XX (in 3 classes) with 15% better seat costs than the
31 Post contains images Zvezda : Thanks Ruscoe! 93 tonnes heavier is a lot of extra weight to carry 15 fewer passengers. But don't worry, Airbus cheerleaders have assured us that Airb
32 Post contains images Halibut : I completely missed the significance for your reply Nav20 . A380 , 650 pax going 8,000 miles = not happening ! Did Airbus paint themselfs into a corn
33 Jacobin777 : it will be interesting to see what the "real world" numbers actually are....I agree, if the numbers are true (big "if"), then Airbus will have a prob
34 NAV20 : Precisely so, in my opinion, Ruscoe. There's a quote I'm fond of:- "The Aerodynamics Department had worked out the performance of take-off run, rate
35 Post contains images AT502B : Well said
36 Steeler83 : I do remember seeing a thread regarding Airbus' push for a stretch A380, come to think of it...
37 Zeke : QF basiclly have two fleets, Europe and Pacific. The newist aircraft on the pacific run (the GE powered 744ERs) are only configured for 343 seats for
38 Zvezda : Exactly! How on earth could Airbus be off by 93 tonnes?
39 Post contains images Manni : Boeing is sending out a lot of messages to the airlines lately, especially in relation to the 748 and A380. Apart from all sorts of one sided comparis
40 Post contains images LAXDESI : What is the expected CASM of a 787 relative to 748 or 380? So its the RASM stupid
41 Post contains images NAV20 : I would think that any question of a 'stretch' went right out the window when the supposedly 'over-designed' A380 wing failed at less than the requir
42 NYC777 : Boeing never said that was no market for VLA aircraft like tha A380 or the 748. They said the market is not large enough to justify the R&D expenditu
43 BoomBoom : he also said of the A350: Do you agree with that too?
44 Gigneil : Hardly. It took only minor revisions to fix the wing and they didn't even have to stop production. N
45 Manni : There's no point arguing about this. But the cross section might be about the only thing that's left from the A300. And it has proved to be very popu
46 Zeke : 787-10 will be the same or slightly better than the 380 or Dumbojet, anything else the 380 and Dumbojet are better.
47 Post contains images Jacobin777 : he's got 10 A380's he needs to lease out...what else is he going to say?..
48 Post contains images TinkerBelle : I think you might wanna re-write that sentence. Didn't know B had much to do with the Whalejet. Damn, B is doing pretty good in this thread. They als
49 NYC777 : Not anymore it isn't, the sales of the A340/A350 show that it really can't compete with the 777/787 efficiently.
50 Zvezda : Perhaps Airbus contracted out the weight saving phase of the WhaleJet's design to Boeing. How much would Airbus have paid to Boeing to add 93 tonnes
51 Post contains images Steeler83 : They didn't... I meant to say they designed the 747-8 well; not the A380. Damn, I keep getting my wires crossed, thanks for pointing out that stupid
52 LAXDESI : Thanks Zeke. Anyplace I can look up for comparative numbers? If true, then the appeal for 748 or 380 will be limited to slot constrained airports. IM
53 Ikramerica : Despite constantly being led to believe that a new relationship was imminent, the 747-8i sexually assaulted China Airlines this morning. When questio
54 Post contains images TinkerBelle : Well put.
55 Starrion : Now that's funny. I am tired of hearing how interested the airlines are in these planes without seeing any concrete action. To sum it up SHOW ME THE O
56 Zkpilot : Exactly.. where QF can they squeeze them in. Where they can't (for range considerations) they finally give pax some decent room. Don't you think its
57 Steeler83 : And this extra weight would ultimately take away from the efficiency of this aircraft. More weight will require more power now to fly this thing the
58 Iwok : The currently unused attic in the 744 will be converted to usable floor space for berthing but cannot be used for takeoff and landing. Hence it does
59 Post contains links NAV20 : I suspect that the problem was always weight, Steeler83; and continues to be. An Airbus engineer, Alain Garcia, was remarkably frank recently in link
60 WingedMigrator : It's called tit for tat. I'm sure he'll call yours a Jumbo if you call his a Superjumbo.
61 Manni : And he also got 16 A350's on order (wich include a follow up order of 4), wich didn't stop him saying...
62 Post contains images Jacobin777 : what does that have to do with the 747-8 and A380?
63 Glacote : I dispute this figure. This would mean that nearly 100 sq meters out of 552 would be "unusable" floor space. My guesstimate lies at 30% more floor sp
64 Manni : Nothing. But you seem to claim that the reason Hazy downplays the 748i is because he's got 10 A380's on order and need to find customers for them. Wh
65 ZK-NBT : Remember the 412 seat 744's are 2 class. The rest are 3 class seating 379 for the Kangaroo Configuration used to LHR via HKG, SIN and BKK mainly and
66 PlaneDane : WingedMigrator, I think it's great that your fellow Boeing bashers are now using this stupid Dumbojet nickname. Now, whenever I will see that patheti
67 Jacobin777 : there is no logic associated with it, as they are independent comments.....not to mention, it is a harder sell to lease a massive VLA as opposed to a
68 PlaneHunter : Ignoring that Boeing uses just estimates for the A380, probably with unrealistic configurations. If you ignore the planned configurations of several
69 Zvezda : No, read it again. That would assume the attic space is 0 sq meters, which is clearly wrong. OEW is dead weight that doesn't represent revenue. MTOW
70 Post contains images Glideslope : With the exception of the 764 there is no reason to disbelieve Boeing's claims when reviewed as a historic profile. The interest in the 748 is just g
71 Post contains images Manni : You'll have to read the post before you can come to that conclusion. I think Dumbo sounds rather cute, while Jumbo sound more... well euh... fat? If
72 Post contains images Jacobin777 : er, Manni...your story has nothing to do with the thread, but that's ok, I enjoy exchanging a chat with you here anyway.........
73 Post contains links Zeke : Sorry none of us can take credit for a nick name the 747 has had since it first entered service, the "Dumbo Jet" nick name came from Pan Am. from an
74 Post contains images Manni : Did he place his A380's? Nothing is known, apart from the rumour that SAA might lease some and that EK will take 2. Feel free to post where he has pl
75 Ikramerica : Problem with your justification is that it didn't stick. Never heard the use of that term to describe the 747 before this month on A.net. The nicknam
76 Post contains images Hamlet69 : Then why not try actually learning to do something yourself? Let's see, according to Airbus, the A380-800 has a 'standard' capacity of 555 passengers
77 Zvezda : Huh? Airbus' corporate form has improved dramatically over the last decade and, while some production arrangements are still politically motivated, i
78 PlaneHunter : Their order backlog suggests something else. Orders still have to prove that. And that is? PH
79 Zeke : Maybe you dont, your parents generation would if they were involved in the indistry, its going back to 1969-1971.
80 Post contains links and images Keesje : Yes, but as you know they don't try to flood the public with half information like Randy understandably does (underdog, 0 748i orders). When they do
81 Post contains links We're Nuts : Maybe we should rename this website www.flyingcontraption.net? My great, great, great grandparents would surely get the reference.
82 WINGS : Has it ever crossed any ones mind that Airbus in a few years may stick some new generation engines onto the A380? Much of the B748i improvements are m
83 Post contains images Ikramerica : That's my point. It is NOT current, but certain people here are bringing it BACK to mock the plane. It's NOT a valid nickname, it WASN'T industry wid
84 Ikramerica : Absolutely. I keep saying this. The first 50-75 or so A380s will be "dogs" due to previous generation technology, but with newer engines and other ae
85 MBJ2000 : Let's recapitulate our A380/Airbus bashing thread: A380 is ugly, an overweight pig with wings, a total failure, ugly, the plane is breaking apart, a f
86 EI321 : But it will have a big impact on the aircrafts weight (and therefore the aircrafts CASMs also), which would limit these berthed 748s to shorter fligh
87 OyKIE : There is a reason for Airbus focus to develop the A380-900. The A380 is optimized for the -900 I think Airbus really wanted to be the king of the hil
88 Post contains images WINGS : If Airbus does indeed decide to tweak the A380 with next generation engines what further improvements can be introduced into the B748i to match it? I
89 KLMCedric : Glideslope, you're just blindly unobjectively bashing Airbus, and it honestly starts to annoy me sometimes! There's some other guys who clearly displa
90 Zeke : Zvezda et al reasoned their term for the A380 appeared in the Seattle Times at one stage, and therefore was in common usage. They believe its "cute",
91 Kaneporta1 : Funniest post I've read in a while. Seriously now, don't ever try getting a job in the aerospace/aviation industry.
92 EI321 : Yeah, reflected by its buldging passenger order backlog.....
93 Agill : To me Whale Jet sounds more derogatory than DumboJet. Probably because the term whale jet mostly have been used by people strongly negative about the
94 HB88 : Just quietly, are you really comparing sensible figures here? When the A3XX was announced in 1994, this was a long time (a decade?) before A380 desig
95 Post contains images Astuteman : I wouldn't bet on that, Halibut Good try, but not good enough. The current A388 is flying on 68 000 lb Trent 900's. both the Trent 900 and GP7000 are
96 Post contains images Tifoso : Acutally, there are a few more problems. The A380 has 159 orders, not 130. SIA announced the A380 order in 2001..the first 748 order was announced in
97 Jet-lagged : You are right. They can be very innovative since they do not need to satisfy the analysts quarter to quarter. Airbus's guaranteed existance thanks to
98 Art : So why do Airbus not propose an A388 with said engines to give it improved range and payload? That would fix any problems with inclement winds from S
99 NAV20 : Oddly enough, Astuteman, we're a lot closer to agreement than we used to be. At long last you seem to be agreeing with me (and other critics of Airbu
100 OyKIE : I think they have to give annual reports to their shareholders EADS and BEA.
101 Leelaw : 50-75 "sub-optimals" barking in the kennel won't do a lot for residual values.
102 Post contains images Astuteman : Answer:- NAV20's right. The choice is either get the basic aircraft into service and then work out a strategy for introducing the later variants that
103 ClassicLover : This is true... it's true of almost all aircraft. The initial versions are nothing compared to 100 airframes down the track... This is also true. Wha
104 DAYflyer : Airbus does the same thing. Difference is Boeing's numbers are WAY closer to reality, as proven by the performance of the A-340 (missed targets) and
105 Post contains images MBJ2000 : But then why do people here compare apples and oranges? Everytime Boeing comes out with a new press release for the 748 certain fanboys here start bas
106 OyKIE : I belive that some of the upgrades being done on the A388F will eventually become the standard in the passenger A388.
107 NAV20 : Cheers, Astuteman. I haven't read Geoffrey De Havilland's book in years - but I got it out again last night. He sums up his design approach in just a
108 Jet-lagged : Yes. More than that of course, since EADS and BEA want to see a return on their investment. For EADS, Airbus provides 'manna from heaven' - money fro
109 Post contains images Astuteman : Well they certainly got that one absolutely right!
110 JAL : Wodner if Qantas will order the new 747-8!
111 Post contains images Astuteman : Missed that one earlier Leelaw - nice one.   See my reply to Art in reply 102 Gotta go - duty calls I'm afraid[Edited 2006-03-24 15:28:36]
112 Dangould2000 : That's right, QF do want to broaden their routes into smaller cities, but Qantas haven't ordered 65 787s, they've ordered 152 787s, in order to repla
113 Art : Do you mean they intend to eventually order 152? If they have actually ordered 152, the "B is best brigade" on a.net have been very muted in their eu
114 PlaneHunter : I do not question the weight difference per seat - my point was that the overall efficiency rating is based on estimates as long as the A380's perfor
115 A999 : I don`t believe it is very wise to "misuse" the A380 in any way! When PanAm, the major aviators of their time introduced the 747 they did just that on
116 Jacobin777 : The one advantage the A380 has over the 747 is that the A380 is a clean sheet design where as the 747 is coming to the end of its line (even Boeing st
117 Goaliemn : When you have less than 10, possibly closer to 5, passenger airlines as customers, when 2 show their configuration, thats a good sized chunk, and sin
118 NYC777 : Uh wrong, the order 40 firm, 25 option and 50 purchase rights for a total of 115.
119 PlaneHunter : There are 13 currently. PH
120 Gigneil : What the hell are you talking about? EADS and BAE are both public companies that have to satisfy the analysts every single quarter. EADS has posted M
121 BoomBoom : Problem is, they never quantifed this. What was expected? How much better was the fuel burn? Exactly, which is why I'm skeptical of the 'better than
122 Post contains images Hamlet69 : You know, Keesje, this forum wouldn't be nearly as much fun without you here. Afterall, where else can we see on a consistant basis someone who willi
123 Ikramerica : No you didn't. You showed that it was used by a specific airline at EIS. Not that it is in use today. One article regarding history does not a trend
124 Jacobin777 : I already have....to which I got the retort......"grow up"
125 Post contains links Keesje : Some folks think that seatcount is not that important. Randy disagrees. I think the 450-550 vs seatcount is an extreme assumption. I think the capasi
126 Zeke : 1969-1971 is before google, before internet. Such a time did exit.
127 Sydscott : Of course that must be the reason because SQ & Emirates don't compete with QF to London, Frankfurt and all of Europe. Singapore doesn't compete for S
128 Thebry : Take care, Ikramerica... take care. For this is nothing but a game of sticks and stones. The words can never hurt, or tarnish, or diminish the reputa
129 LAXDESI : Keesje's examples indicate 74% seat count for 747-8 relative to 380. Using 74% as an average ratio, average no. of seats for 748 should be 407 relati
130 Antares : I like Mr Creedy's stuff. He is fiercely non-brand in his reporting too. I'm waiting to see how many hours pass before today's scathing report about s
131 Keesje : Side note: is there any reason why QF would put 3-3-3, 9 abreast on the 787 but avoid 3-5-3, 11 abreast on the A380 maindeck? Will they have different
132 Post contains images Hamlet69 : Just so I have this clear, you are assuming that both manufacturer's are lying, but while Boeing are "over-lying," Airbus is "under-lying"? You can t
133 Zvezda : Please be careful not to paint with too broad a brush. Many of the WhaleJet's critics have acknowledged Airbus' achievements. Very true.
134 Art : Both magnificent aircraft but I think you got 747 and Concorde the wrong way round. Supersonic was the most prestigious way to travel in my opinion a
135 ClassicLover : Seat plan? Care to share a link? Or do you mean number of seats?
136 Hamlet69 : Sorry, I mis-spoke. Yes, I intended "number of seats." Regards, Hamlet69
137 LAXDESI : At seatguru, for 744 I found a 375 seat configuration for SQ(12, 50, 313) and for QF 382(14, 50, 318). How do you come up with 355 seats for a B748?
138 Leelaw : Perhaps, when you learn the difference between presenting an argument, and being argumentative, you won't have to endure tsunamis of criticism?
139 Post contains links SunriseValley : I know that figures don't lie but that liar's figure so to use a base that I consider to be authoritive, I go through the figures that Widebodyphotog
140 Zvezda : Range/payload performance. One could easily configure 3-5-3 seating on the WhaleJet's maindeck, but QF are struggling to get all the range out of her
141 Antares : Zvezda, Latest we've heard is that they will get just over the equivalent of a full load on a 744-ER out of the A380 on that route. That is about 110
142 Zvezda : Which windows? The last aircraft you mention is the WhaleJet. But most window talk is about the B787. Are you saying that Boeing are reducing the hei
143 Khobar : If the galleys are moved to the overhead area, this would free up a sizeable amount of space in which to put the access without having to take out se
144 Antares : Zvezda, The answer to your question is I'm sorry to say Yes. One of the technical media people we talk to thought the windows shown in a Boeing image
145 PITrules : As far as the 748 and QF, In about 5 years Qantas will have a lot of old 744 which will need replacing. The 748i (perhaps in combination with the 777)
146 Post contains links Antares : OK I'll raise it again. Here we are carrying on about a very good report about a jet that hasn't flown yet by Steve Creedy. A day later he writes a wi
147 Post contains images Iwok : At this point its all conjecture on both parts. I think the data will speak for itself, hopefully "before the end of the year." You made a good point
148 Zvezda : The fuselage width of the JumboJet is 251 inches, versus 281 inches for the WhaleJet. Admittedly, the fuselage walls of the WhaleJet are thicker, but
149 LAXDESI : I wouldn't be surprised if Kingfisher were to outfit its A380 with 3-5-3 layout, especially if it was to be used on BOM-LHR-JFK sector. Range/payload
150 Ikramerica : I find all sorts of articles from back then when i search for them. We aren't searching for them. You claim that it is a common term for the 747. The
151 Astuteman : Yes, it will, Khobar. A
152 Post contains links Zeke : If you bothered to read the link above from the 1999 article, you will see that Dumbojet term was in common usage, because it was considered a white
153 Post contains links and images Tifoso : Nice try at diverting attention, Antares. Sorry will not work. Here's the story in the article that you quote: This subject was already discussed her
154 Post contains images Tifoso : Well then Zeke, ain't it quite clear that you are trying to use the term Dumbojet in a derogatory fashion, because in your opinion WhaleJet is deroga
155 Post contains links Zeke : It made the news as the interium factual report was released this week. http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/...ports/2005/AAIR/aair200503722.aspx I d
156 Antares : OK guys. Here is a fault in 500 jets. No big deal. A safety recommendation. No big deal. Like the 737 rudder or the A300 composite tail disaster. No b
157 Leelaw : O.K., then start a new thread on this specific topic where it will get the attention you think it deserves.
158 Antares : Leelaw, My point was that this forum is highly selective. I said earlier in the day I wondered how long it would take those who were chattering about
159 WAH64D : The very same could be said of the B748. Possibly an explanation for the complete absence of a pax version order?
160 Zeke : Its a matter of perception. The 747 was/is also known as a whale. Agreed. I didnt think it was a big issue as they still had the Standby Air Data and
161 Tifoso : The story was already picked up 6 months ago. You could also do a service to this forum by starting a thread on the subject so that everyone could co
162 Antares : Tifoso, Mr Creedy refers to the ATSB report obliquely and pulls together a coherent overview of the issues. The report also contains a comment from Bo
163 Post contains links Halibut : This computer chip issue is intrigueing . However , the topic at hand is Boeing & Airbus's ability to design an aircraft to have it preform as designe
164 Tifoso : The issue was quickly identified (a broken device from Honeywell), a fix provided (revert to an older version of the software) to all airlines, and p
165 Post contains images MarcoT : A search on Google for Whalejet provides 508 hits, while a search on Google for Dumbojet provides 514 hits: the results for 'Jumbo Jet' and 'SuperJum
166 Post contains images Singapore_Air : The term WHALEJET is also referred to in this editorial in the Bengali newspaper / newspaper from the country Bangladesh: Airbus likely to rule long-d
167 BoomBoom : I think I'll wait for a better source. "One of the technical media people we talk to" just doesn't cut it. Perhaps you should start a new thread on t
168 Khobar : Whales are smart, graceful; dinosaurs were dumb, extinct. Was that the thrust of your comment? I'd have thought people would be more concerned about
169 Post contains images Revelation : Well said! Interesting in theory, but I think there are commercial interests to consider. I believe that the Engine Alliance contract GE signed will
170 Zvezda : That would be remarkable, if true. Would Airbus make the WhaleJet 30 inches wider than the JumboJet just to add 8 inches of width at seat level? Good
171 Post contains images Astuteman : I think I agreed with this in reply 102 . Not small considerations either. A
172 Post contains links Khobar : Indeed, if the measurements I came up with are accurate. Airbus publication shows 62"+20"+42"+42"+20"+62" for main deck economy seating (page 32 of t
173 Revelation : Thanks for pointing out that part of reply 102, I missed it in first reading. Cheers!
174 Singaporegirl : i actually thought dumbojet (as in dumbo the disney's elephant character) is an adorable name!
175 Dangould2000 : Yes, they put in a solid order for 152 787s
176 Art : Dangould, there seems to be some confusion. Perhaps it's over the term "purchase rights". To me that sounds like some kind of option.
177 Zeke : No its not, CX did it as well with their 773ERs. It is an agreed price if they wish to buy more, no delivery slots are reserved. The QF 787 firm orde
178 Art : Sorry, perhaps I'm being dumb (perhaps not) but a right to purchase at an agreed price in the future is not the same as an order to me. To me an orde
179 Post contains images Halibut : That's sweet Singaporegirl , However , from a guys persprective " Dumbo " is refering to a " GoofBall , , Bonehead & Blockhead ! Halibut
180 Leelaw : You're correct, a "purchase right" is basically an option without a specific delivery slot assigned and is not considered a firm order, as the purcha
181 Hoya : I don't want to go off-topic here, but regarding the 777 software glitch article, people have failed to quote, in my opinion, a few important sentence
182 Trex8 : have there been any estimates as to how the 748s fuel burn compares to a 773ER
183 AvObserver : Manni, if you want to reference Udvar-Hazy, do it accurately. He didn't say it would be "unpopular", just not a "worldwide favorite". There's a diffe
184 Khobar : There will be something to fill the gap there for the window pax. Whether that could be considered a positive or a negative would depend on the indiv
185 Post contains images ContnlEliteCMH : "Withering?" If this qualifies as "withering" then I'd love to be "excoriated" by you anyday. It would feel like a Sunday afternoon compared to, say,
186 HB88 : I'm guessing that those annoying IFE boxes will, in future, vanish and be replaced by in-aircraft wireless LANs (or at least be manufactured much muc
187 Agill : Had never heard Dumbo used in another way than the flying elephant, which sounded like a quite funny nickname, as well as play on words. So if I unde
188 Zvezda : That's an option. An option is the right to buy (or sell) a well defined thing at a well defined price in the well defined future. The well defined f
189 Post contains links SunriseValley : Widebodyphotogs table at RE: Boeing Nears 747adv Launch Decision (by Widebodyphotog Sep 8 2005 in Civil Aviation)#ID2316548 provides the answer. It l
190 Post contains images Revelation : I guess it's word quiz time on a.net, but I'll play along. Hair splitting. A tiny difference if any. Not a favorite equates to not popular which equat
191 Trex8 : so I asked my kids (grades 7-11) and their friends about calling a plane whalejet and dumbojet, not one thought dumbojet was derogatory as they all co
192 NAV20 : I reckon the 'play on words' thing was never done better than in the old BBC/TV thing, 'Yes, Minister'. Like when Sir Humphrey was explaining to a col
193 Post contains images Revelation : LOL!
194 Jush : I'm always amazed how every new plane can cut anything down by a margin of 25% that is just ridiculously a lot. PR bullshit that is. Regards jush
195 NAV20 : That's actually the easiest claim to prove, by simple logic. You didn't realise the significance of the term 'trip cost'. Both aeroplanes are claimed
196 MarcoT : NAV20, you should really know better than deducting fuel consumptions at max range by fuel tankage ... the DumboJet may indeed have a 25% in trip cos
197 NAV20 : So are you saying that Airbus is designing tankage into the A380 for fuel that it won't NEED to go maximum-range, MarcoT? With all due respect, THAT
198 MarcoT : Would you care to try to explain why you appear to think so? I humbly suggest taking a long and careful read of some payload/range charts before vent
199 ContnlEliteCMH : Hot dog! Let me know where to pick up the trophy! It will adorn my office nicely. In my business, being a geek is lucrative!
200 NAV20 : By all means post some, MarcoT, and I'll look at them - as far as they may be relevant. But as far as I know, 'trip cost' (the issue under discussion
201 Dangould2000 : Excuse me, i happen to work for QF, so i would know,
202 Post contains links MarcoT : I don't understand. A cursory glance at some payload range charts would have let you understand that -flying the design payload/range mission- some a
203 PlaneHunter : 80% load on a 500-seater during an off-season wouldn't be a nightmare for an airline... PH
204 Zeke : Nav your being silly. The 340-200 has maximum fuel capacity of 40,960 US gal, using your logic its over 30% cheaper to run across 8000 nm over the Du
205 Zvezda : As MarcoT already pointed out, some aircraft are fuel-limited (B777-200LR for example) and some are weight-limited (WhaleJet for example). However, i
206 Khobar : Perhaps we should take Airbus's lead and replace the name Whalejet with, what, Sperm, Humpback, Killer, Blue, Grey, Minke, Narwhal, Beluga - no, that
207 Zeke : The Dumbojet is not that good, if you could post some balance to include the revenue difference, and the relationship between fuel cost as a fraction
208 AndesSMF : Both airplanes have a large passenger difference. If you have only the 450 pass. requirement, the 748 is cheaper to operate. Anty more than that, and
209 Post contains images Agill : Call a girl "a whale" and then tell us what happened... if you are capable
210 Post contains images Leelaw : O.K., Call her a SuperJumbo or a Jumbo or even a Dumbo and see how she likes it as well? [Edited 2006-03-27 00:11:19]
211 Aither : Then i think we should call the 787 the "hypejet". Anyway, did you know that the A320 has a lower trip cost than the 747-8 ? I believe Qantas should b
212 Khobar : What has that got to do with whether whales are slothful, obese and "generally gross"? As Leelaw suggested, would a girl be any warmer to being calle
213 Khobar : So you believe the A320 competes with the B747? Wow... As for Hypejet, as I said before you do whatever namecalling makes you happy. It reflects only
214 Aither : The same way some believe the 747-8 competes with the A380 Wow...
215 Khobar : Exactly why do you think the 748 doesn't compete at all with the A380?
216 Jacobin777 : another way of posting this question would be if there are certain carriers who are not so sure about purchasing the A380 now that the 747-8 is offer
217 AvObserver : Now I'll split hairs by saying he likely meant "not too popular", rather than "unpopular". Perhaps a small difference but still significant. He did i
218 Abba : eh - isn't max range determined by the amout of fuel you have? The idea that you have more fuel than you need to go max range seems a rather odd idea
219 NAV20 : Abba (and others), this particular controversy started with Jush disputing Boeing's statement about trip costs as 'PR bullshit.' Please note, TRIP CO
220 Zvezda : There are three reasons why the A320 doesn't compete with the JumboJet. Primary: range Secondary: CASM Tertiary (and rarely at all): slots The JumboJ
221 BoeingBus : It's interesting how you all debate which is best... placing derogatory labels on these birds... and at the end you will see MANY airlines having both
222 Zeke : Its very easy to dispute, I have already said why, you don't want to listen. ICAO in the world airline average has the following breakdown for total
223 Post contains images Astuteman : Agree totally, AvObserver. I'll maintain that if you look at the posting around the time of the reveal last year you can clearly see just how "inoffe
224 Ikramerica : Did you bother to do a google search like I suggested, or are you just talking out of your ass...tuteman? I suggest you do one and then get back to m
225 Zvezda : Non sequitor. If you enjoy making stuff up and implying that others said it, have fun. The A330 has higher CASM than the WhaleJet.
226 Post contains images MBJ2000 : I vote for calling it the "CrampJet" as it will be a horror sitting in there 3-3-3 for 10 hours.
227 Astuteman : Apologies if that was incorrect, Zvezda. I asked a question. I've heard so many figures now, all (to my eyes) seeming to reduce over time that I'd ap
228 Antares : Hey everyone. Lighten up as the children around here say. I think we should all agree to call the 747 'the Queen of the Skies.' Whatever we think of o
229 Post contains images MBJ2000 : Amen!
230 Brendan03 : What is the max ammount of passengers QF could load into the A380 before it couldn't to SYD-LAX? - same Question for the 747-8 - I think this is what
231 MarcoT : This is totally uncalled for, not to mention being completely in violation of the rules of this forum. The most sad point is that you'll cry murder i
232 Zvezda : The max number of passengers depends on the OEW of the aircraft as configured by QF and on the assumptions about weather. Is one diversion per year d
233 Khobar : "Queen of the Skies" reminds me of some old withered head of state long past her prime serving no useful purpose and surviving only by the grace of G
234 Astuteman : I have to say that I find your reaction to my earlier post extreme to say the least. There was certainly no indication that you were being specifical
235 Antares : 'Queen of the Skies' has been widely used to describe the 747 for at least 20 years. It is certainly a lot better than Dumbojet. I don't call the A380
236 Post contains images Leelaw : Must not be an AQ frequent flyer?
237 Glacote : You would need +33% to prove your point. You can not simulateneously claim that it has 25% lower trip cost yet around the same CASM if they compete f
238 WingedMigrator : I think you missed the PR BS argument. Boeing's claim of lower trip cost is factually true, and I don't think anybody disputes it... what is disingen
239 Zvezda : MTOW does not depend on how QF configure their cabin; OEW does, as does the number of passengers would can be carried on a given long-haul route.
240 NAV20 : You and I both see that, WingedMigrator (and thanks for yuur post) - but there's about 20 posts above from folk who evidently don't! With respect, th
241 Post contains links SunriseValley : I have been puzzled about the apparent inability to do this with the 747-400ER On the basis of the Widebodyphotog table in the following link I would
242 SunriseValley : oops........this should read about 8800nm.. sorry...
243 Zvezda : Seat-mile costs are on the cost side, not on the revenue side. A 14% increase in capacity can never generate a 14% increase in revenue because, in th
244 Post contains links Sydscott : I think we should all give ourselves a pat on the back here because in this entire discussion of 243 posts I haven't found 1 person who has spelled Qa
245 Zeke : The maximum range of the A380 is over 9500 nm, with 555 passengers its 8000 nm. If you look above I have said a 777 and a 340 would have cheaper trip
246 Antares : SunriseValley, Most of us were convinced (although it took me time) that Qantas would buy the 777-200LR because we had convinced ourselves that it cou
247 SunriseValley : Probably, but a 8800nm still air distance is about equal to a -100k wind and this is simply not so. I monitor the winds on the route at FL300 and FL3
248 Khobar : Rather depends on what you define as "the market". I don't know if there are specific break points that define markets especially as it seems some ar
249 Jacobin777 : and its about 7000nm with 485 pax..... and we know thats no longer the case..so far, I've seen 501....and IIRC, its down the 480's.....basically to m
250 Zeke : I saw 470/480 on here last year before the 787 order was announced, now their web site has been upgraded with the 787 on it, and with the 500 seat nu
251 SunriseValley : Antares, I know for certain that the -200LR was being seriously considered for SYD-JFK. That might still be so given that the first procurement round
252 Jacobin777 : I checked QF's website and I wasn't able to find it...if you could provide a link, I would very much appreciate it....
253 Antares : SunriseValley, Could be. However you will find a fairly detailed statement about the Qantas view on ultra-long-range flight on the website at qantas.c
254 NAV20 : Zeke, about #245, we're actually close to agreement. On the '25%' basis, the 748 will have to achieve 400-plus and the A380 will have to achieve 500-p
255 Post contains links Khobar : http://www.qantas.com.au/info/about/company/fleetDevelopments "We will also make aviation history by operating the longest 500-passenger service in t
256 Post contains images Jacobin777 : 501 indeed it is for now......thank you very much.....
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
FAA, NTSB, Boeing Baffled By 2 747 System Faliures posted Thu Dec 4 2003 09:17:27 by Singapore_Air
Boeing 727- A Tribute By Wings posted Wed Oct 18 2006 12:27:16 by WINGS
Boeing Considers Options For 747-8 posted Sun Jun 4 2006 20:20:53 by Leelaw
Boeing And JAL Turn 747-400BCF Options To Firm Ord posted Mon Jan 9 2006 19:30:37 by OyKIE
Boeing Touting 3 Types Of 747 Freighters. +A.Q... posted Thu Dec 22 2005 00:04:06 by DIA
Boeing 700 Orders By 12/31? posted Thu Nov 10 2005 16:13:52 by DAYflyer
Boeing Optimistic On Keeping 747, 767 Production posted Wed May 25 2005 06:27:05 by Jacobin777
Airbus A-319CJ, Boeing BBJ. Use By Airlines? posted Thu Mar 17 2005 21:58:48 by Cumulonimbus
What Operated Boeing 377, 707 And 747? posted Sat Feb 26 2005 03:59:17 by 747400sp
Boeing 757 And 767 Production Efficiency posted Wed Dec 8 2004 05:24:30 by RoseFlyer