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Second Airbus Meeting To Discuss A350 With LY  
User currently offlineAmirs From Israel, joined Dec 2003, 1333 posts, RR: 4
Posted (8 years 9 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5104 times:

Airbus will be back in TLV this week to discuss with LY the possibilities of replacing the aging 767's with new A350's.
This will be the second meeting this month.
A second meeting would mean the parties are getting serious.
I just hope it is a stunt to pressure Boeing to offer the 787 at a better price.

42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 1, posted (8 years 9 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5085 times:

While I'd really like to see El Al flying something else than Boeings for a change, I just don't see it happening with the A350...

Then again, with the changes in El Al's ownership, who knows what's possible.

Regards,
Frank



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 22
Reply 2, posted (8 years 9 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4902 times:

Quoting Amirs (Thread starter):
I just hope it is a stunt to pressure Boeing to offer the 787 at a better price.


Most likely scenario. Unbelievable that Airbus is actually wasting time talking to them. Last time all went well too, untill the always interfering American governement told LY to order differently. Having said that, with LY being privatised, Airbus might have a change (out of a 100000 that is) selling aircraft to them. How many aircraft is it for anyway?



SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
User currently offlineFCKC From France, joined Nov 2004, 2348 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (8 years 9 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4667 times:

This is a joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As Manni said , i think Airbus will be well inspired NOT wasting time with LY.
No way for LY to purchase European products , Uncle Sam will not authorise them to do so.


User currently offlineLevg79 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 995 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 9 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4652 times:

Quoting FCKC (Reply 3):
No way for LY to purchase European products , Uncle Sam will not authorise them to do so.

LY is not owned by Uncle Sam, so they are free to do what they wish. However this seems a bit strange that LY is considering an Airbus product because their fleet has been strictly Boeing up until now. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Leo.



A mile of runway takes you to the world. A mile of highway takes you a mile.
User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4359 posts, RR: 35
Reply 5, posted (8 years 9 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4568 times:

Quoting Levg79 (Reply 4):
LY is not owned by Uncle Sam, so they are free to do what they wish.

Still the US and Israeli government have a million ways to make El Al's life miserable if they even THINK of buying Airbus. Can't believe Airbus is wasting their time again, since El Al cancelled buying A-332s a few years ago on the last moment.



nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 7007 posts, RR: 63
Reply 6, posted (8 years 9 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4537 times:

Quoting FCKC (Reply 3):
No way for LY to purchase European products , Uncle Sam will not authorise them to do so.

Well, they put RR engines on their 757s and, more recently, chose RR again for their 777s when, as I recall, they were under intense pressure to buy American. So, they have been known to disregard Uncle Sam and may do so again.

By all accounts, they were very interested in the A330 a few years back. That deal came to nothing but it appeared to be more than a bargaining ploy to get a better price out of Boeing. (Apart from anything else, they didn't order any Boeings in lieu of the proposed A330s which is why they are talking again to Airbus.)

An Airbus buy by LY out of the question? I wouldn't say so.


User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7428 posts, RR: 57
Reply 7, posted (8 years 9 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4483 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 2):
Last time all went well too, untill the always interfering American governement told LY to order differently

It's very funny that everybody seems to find quite "normal" and "natural" those American pressures, while at the same time, the same people are calling "big scandal" the "so called" pressures from the E-U (or X European Governement) on an airline to buy Airbus ....

Back to the topic, I doubt the U.S will allow LY to buy Airbus one day with the billion of $ of subsidies poured each year by the the American Administration onto Israël.


User currently offlineBreiz From France, joined Mar 2005, 1920 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (8 years 9 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4465 times:

Quoting Amirs (Thread starter):
I just hope it is a stunt to pressure Boeing to offer the 787 at a better price.

Last time El Al was requesting offers from Boeing and Airbus, Airbus refused to waste their time, declined and explained why publicly.
May be this time, El Al has given assurance that it will be fair play.


User currently offlineSolnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 859 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (8 years 9 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4434 times:

I really doubt LY is intrested in 350, eventhou I´m cheerleader for u-know-who. 787s looks more like a reality IMO..

Micke//SWE  twocents 



Airbus SAS - Love them both
User currently offline767-332ER From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2030 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (8 years 9 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4281 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 7):
Back to the topic, I doubt the U.S will allow LY to buy Airbus one day with the billion of $ of subsidies poured each year by the the American Administration onto Israël.

And yet all the money that has rolled into US Airways and United as a result of Ch.11 and they were certainly free to buy Airbuses. My my, but you guys seem to be stuck on Uncle Sam wanting to get busier pressuring a smaller, foreign carrier that's 5,000 miles away on buying a few Boeings rather than forcing one of their own here in the U.S. receiving direct dollars from the gov't.

You guys just sometimes do not make sense. LY is doing what they should do, which is shop around. Remember IB? According to your theory, any carrier that purchases Boeing or decides to operate Boeing solely is pressured by the U.S gov't, while any carrier that decides to be a sole Airbus operator is just wise.

Get off your bias guys.



Twinjets...if one fails, work the other one twice as hard!!!
User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2821 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (8 years 9 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4259 times:

A350 at LY is about as likely as 787 at IB.

User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 9 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4259 times:

Airbus should always try to sell planes to airlines, no matter what the stakes are. Speaking of political pressure.

a) Does anybody really think the US will stop helping Israel when a private company buys a better European product instead of the American competitor?

b) Is the US the only one supporting Israel, or doesn't the EU do a lot for them, as well?

I think the A350 would look just fine in their livery. Same as the A380 (JFK-TLV?)


User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7428 posts, RR: 57
Reply 13, posted (8 years 9 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4183 times:

Quoting 767-332ER (Reply 10):
And yet all the money that has rolled into US Airways and United as a result of Ch.11 and they were certainly free to buy Airbuses.

The big difference is that USAir or United are private companies, and American companies, employing thousands and thousands of U.S Citizens. They received this money under very particular circumstances and conditions, according to the American law.
Israël has been under the Billions $ perfusions from the U.S for almost 60 years. This money goes to a State, a Government ... which still owns LY and will buy aircraft for it. And there, this is all about Politics.


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 9 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4163 times:

Quoting 767-332ER (Reply 10):
LY is doing what they should do, which is shop around.


Friday December 17, 1999

Albright presses Israel to order U.S.-made airplanes, engines

WASHINGTON (JTA) -- During her recent visit to Israel, U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright gave a not-so-subtle-hint: Buy
Albright issued the warning because Israel's national airline, El Al, plans to buy European-made planes and engines.


http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-.../245/format/html/displaystory.html

Quoting 767-332ER (Reply 10):
Get off your bias guys.

I guess this was no bias, but reality.

Like in many recent deals talk about performance & technical superiority is window dressing. Landing rights, trade deficits, political powerplay doesn´t surface, but plays a major role in many orders, unfortunately..


User currently offlineCRGsFuture From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 536 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (8 years 9 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4147 times:

I think we all know that LY is buying Boeing Aircraft, weither it is the 787 is another story but I think it will be Boeing.


Flying you to your destination; your girlfriend to her dreams.
User currently offlineColumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (8 years 9 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3974 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 2):
Unbelievable that Airbus is actually wasting time talking to them.

Airbus would be a fool not to deal with them. El Al is not state owened and they can buy whatever they want.
If there is a slight chance to win a long time Boeing customer Airbus should take it. It is easier to sell A350s to LY than A320s to WN.
It seems for most of us that the 777/787 combo is being the superior package over the A340/A350 - just look at the sales of last year.
It is now Airbus time to react and show that this is not true and that they also offer a equivalent or even better product, what could be better if winning El Al an airline everyone would think new aircraft deals would be in Boeing´s pockets.
The advantage of El Al is also clear they would get a very good deal from Airbus and on future deals Boeing has to take them more serious.



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2744 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (8 years 9 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3867 times:

they have just ordered 2 more 777s, so the A350 would not make sense


אמא, אני מתגעגע לך
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 7007 posts, RR: 63
Reply 18, posted (8 years 9 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3841 times:

Quoting LY777 (Reply 17):
they have just ordered 2 more 777s, so the A350 would not make sense

Not the A359, perhaps, but why not the A358 as a replacement for the 767s?


User currently offlineAirA380 From Bangladesh, joined Mar 2006, 179 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 9 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3808 times:

Quoting PM (Reply 6):
Well, they put RR engines on their 757s and, more recently, chose RR again for their 777s when, as I recall, they were under intense pressure to buy American. So, they have been known to disregard Uncle Sam and may do so again.

By all accounts, they were very interested in the A330 a few years back. That deal came to nothing but it appeared to be more than a bargaining ploy to get a better price out of Boeing. (Apart from anything else, they didn't order any Boeings in lieu of the proposed A330s which is why they are talking again to Airbus.)

An Airbus buy by LY out of the question? I wouldn't say so.

If that is true then all European airline should be banned from buying Boeing...Government shouldn't interfere in this business...airline should be able choose which plane they want in with their market and business strategy.PERIOD



I'm flying without wings!!!!!!!!
User currently offlineJoni From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 9 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3795 times:

Quoting Levg79 (Reply 4):

LY is not owned by Uncle Sam, so they are free to do what they wish. However this seems a bit strange that LY is considering an Airbus product because their fleet has been strictly Boeing up until now.

In Israel, many things are ultimately linked up despite what the ownership relations may look like. When El Al was buying 4 A330s, Madelaine Albright (then the US foreign secretary) told them to drop them, and drop them they did.


User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2744 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (8 years 9 months 4 days ago) and read 3781 times:

joni, this is exactly what keesje has wroten  Wink


אמא, אני מתגעגע לך
User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24964 posts, RR: 56
Reply 22, posted (8 years 9 months 4 days ago) and read 3781 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 2):
Last time all went well too, untill the always interfering American governement told LY to order differently.

Don't come with that rubbish. European and American governments tend to interfere all the time, so you can hardly say it's just the US government at it.  Yeah sure



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (8 years 9 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3711 times:

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 22):
Don't come with that rubbish. European and American governments tend to interfere all the time, so you can hardly say it's just the US government at it.

Absolutely no rubbish. LY had made up their mind, A330's is what they wanted. When Albright heard about this, she told Israel no to, or else...

Completely different with encouraging airlines to buy either European or American, as Blair apparently recently did with the QF order asking the Aussie governement to encourage QF to buy Airbus. Why's that differen? Apparently Blair offered some incentives, he didn't say... or else... and a decision wasn't made yet at the time of Blair' recommandation.

It might be difficult to swallow for you, doubt it would have been the case if it didn't involve Boeing, but what Albright did was blackmail in it's purest form. Granny Albright, what a complete joke she is... How can anyone take someone like that serious?

LY knows it's going to order Boeing, but is avoiding having to pay the full price by knocking on the competitors door.



SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
User currently offlineMBJ2000 From Germany, joined Dec 2005, 426 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (8 years 9 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3634 times:

There is a small difference, however there will always be politicians who will use more aggressive methods to manipulate business. You can be sure that if an eastern european carrier is in the same position and Blair, Merkel or Chirac has the same influence as Albright had in that case, they WOULD use it.

Airbus shouldn't be dumb and play the role of the "offended bride" whatsoever and try to win the deal. Even if they hurt Boeing on price it's still a win...

Quoting Manni (Reply 23):
Quoting Gkirk (Reply 22):
Don't come with that rubbish. European and American governments tend to interfere all the time, so you can hardly say it's just the US government at it.

Absolutely no rubbish. LY had made up their mind, A330's is what they wanted. When Albright heard about this, she told Israel no to, or else...

Completely different with encouraging airlines to buy either European or American, as Blair apparently recently did with the QF order asking the Aussie governement to encourage QF to buy Airbus. Why's that differen? Apparently Blair offered some incentives, he didn't say... or else... and a decision wasn't made yet at the time of Blair' recommandation.

It might be difficult to swallow for you, doubt it would have been the case if it didn't involve Boeing, but what Albright did was blackmail in it's purest form. Granny Albright, what a complete joke she is... How can anyone take someone like that serious?

LY knows it's going to order Boeing, but is avoiding having to pay the full price by knocking on the competitors door.



Like most of life's problems, this one can be solved with bending -- Bender Unit 22
25 Gkirk : Everyone knows that's true, but it's not just the American government that uses political pressure, the UK, France, German and Spanish governments wi
26 Post contains images Khobar : You should probably read the article Keesje posted a link to. You mean they aren't mindless drones like all the other Boeing customers? You should pr
27 Trex8 : or maybe they wanted to throw a bone to the other side, the Europeans, after deciding to get 777s. Like CI did buying GE engines after deciding to ge
28 Post contains images Gkirk : There is probably more American parts in the A350 than the B787 anyway
29 Keesje : Looks like you are the only one that doesn't understand what this means.. Albright, the Israelies, El Al, Boeing, Airbus, everyone understood. Aviati
30 Post contains images PM : Since Hawker de Havilland is owned by Boeing and based in Australia, it may not be the best example you could have chosen...
31 WINGS : Don't they make the A330/A340 winglets? Regards, Wings
32 Thorben : I think they make the A380 winglets.
33 Post contains images PM : But it's hardly an example of "European involvement in the 787..."
34 Amirs : ??? They have order 3 777 since then. The original order was 3 777 and 3 330's. Instead of the 3 A330's they got another 777, and now they ordered an
35 PM : As you say, the original plan was for a mix of 777s and A330s. The A330s were never ordered. The fourth 777 was ordered quite soon after the first th
36 Khobar : Would be ironic to say the least. Somewhere I saw a figure of 120,000 US (North America perhaps) employees involved in the A380, and I'm not even sur
37 AA1818 : You guys can complain about the US interfering but heck if I was pumping millions of dollars into an economy and had helped it tremendously over the y
38 Manni : Dont't fool yourself... so far LOT is the biggest European 787 customer, despite Poland being a major EU money taker. I challenge you to give one obv
39 Alitalia744 : Exactly, if I recall there is a current post about Mr. Blair, of UK fame offering Qantas valuable LHR slots in exchange for Airbii ordering.
40 Manni : Mr. Blair made a suggestion and offered an incentive, Albright made a command and threathened to withdraw financial support to Israel if not followed
41 4xRuv : I think that for a carrier with a fleet smaller than 40 pieces, it won't be wise to operate both A and B fleet. Correct me If I'm wrong. I know that i
42 Post contains links Joni : Have a look at this article, perhaps it helps to explain things: http://www.cidi.nl/news/news1999.html#09-12-99a From the above Jerusalem post articl
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