FriendlySkies From United States, joined Aug 2004, 3584 posts, RR: 7 Reply 1, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 12492 times:
Hadn't Qatar already signed a firm contract? If not it's not that big a deal, but if so wouldn't that cost them quite a bit of $$$?
I'm a ramblin' wreck from georgia tech and a helluva engineer
WINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2780 posts, RR: 74 Reply 2, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 12439 times:
Quoting N1786b (Thread starter): WSJ reporting that Qatar is backing off from its 777 commitment.
This action on Qatar's part has been expected in the last couple of weeks.
Quoting N1786b (Thread starter): I suppose this is the A340 deal Forgeard was hinting at a while back and a direct result of shopping Emirate's A340HGW A340s at "rock-botton prices"
I have to congratulate Airbus on this particular move. They managed to keep Qatar an all Airbus operator.
I'll be eagerly awaiting further news regarding this update. Few fact are currently know at this point in time.
Tigerotor77W From United States, joined Mar 2006, 141 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 12439 times:
I'll admit my 777 preference openly, but I'm glad that a company is still buying what's best for them.
If these rock-bottom prices help their bottom line even more than the economics of the 77W, so be it. Kudos to them for making a bold decision, especially right in the face of their competition.
WINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2780 posts, RR: 74 Reply 4, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 12382 times:
Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 1): Hadn't Qatar already signed a firm contract? If not it's not that big a deal, but if so wouldn't that cost them quite a bit of $$$?
No Qatar had only a MOU with Boeing for the purchase of 20 B777.
What's more interesting is the fact that Qatar was to order some B777-200F. One has to ask what type will Qatar be acquiring after this particular move. Maybe Airbus is offering Qatar to be launch customer for the A332F.
I have also come across a rumour that their could also be a Freighter variant of the A340-500.
Scbriml From United Kingdom (England), joined Jul 2003, 8897 posts, RR: 50 Reply 5, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 12355 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Of course they are already an A346 customer, so it's not that big of a jump for them.
When they said they would order "at least 20 777s" at Paris last year, I think that number included 772LRs and 772Fs. I wonder if they'll take any A345s? Anyone know if they're still interested in the 772Fs?
Leelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 12355 times:
I guess the news here is that a "final" decision will be coming soon (from WSJ):
"Qatar Airways, a fast-growing state-owned Persian Gulf carrier, will decide between the two models and announce an order within "four to six weeks," Mr. Baker said in an interview here Monday. News of the contemplated change appeared in some press accounts late last month."
Leelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 12301 times:
Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 1): Hadn't Qatar already signed a firm contract? If not it's not that big a deal, but if so wouldn't that cost them quite a bit of $$$?
Leelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 12130 times:
I'll wager QR has been offered the A346s EK no longer wants and the cash-back deal as well, so there's not going to be any real change in order backlog.
NorCal From United States, joined Mar 2005, 1591 posts, RR: 3 Reply 10, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 12100 times:
Nice play by Airbus, they steal a 777 customer and solve the whole EK A346 problem in one move. They probably also have another customer for the A340E now, whenever that is supposed to happen
"Rapid decompression leads to involuntary exiting of the Aircraft"
WINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2780 posts, RR: 74 Reply 11, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 12100 times:
Quoting Leelaw (Reply 9): I'll wager QR has been offered the A346s EK no longer wants and the cash-back deal as well, so there's not going to be any real change in order backlog.
Emirates have not cancelled their order. They are looking to postpone it until the A340E comes out. If this is the case than the A340 actually gets a boost to it's backlog as this will be a new order.
One also has to remember that Qatar may no be taking up all of the slots. Some other airlines may also be interested in catching some slots.
WINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2780 posts, RR: 74 Reply 12, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 12036 times:
Quoting NorCal (Reply 10): Nice play by Airbus, they steal a 777 customer
No not really. They basically just prevented Qatar from being a future B777 operator.
Both Northwest and Continental actually came closer to becoming an A340 operator than Qatar being an B777 operator. Qatar never signed a firm contract with Boeing.
BoeingBus From United States, joined May 2004, 1565 posts, RR: 16 Reply 13, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 12036 times:
I think this is still Boeings to lose... they have publicly decided on the 773ER. They are sold on the econmonics and the bird.
This all comes from a recent report on Airbus dropping prices due to a bad 2005 A340 sales year... If Boeing counter offers you will see a 777 in a Qatar colors... Otherwise, they got a grand deal on the A340.
Leelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 14, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 12036 times:
Quoting WINGS (Reply 11): Emirates have not cancelled their order. They are looking to postpone it until the A340E comes out.
Yada, Yada, Yada. A five+ year deferral for an aircraft which hasn't been launched is the moral equivalent of a cancellation. If Airbus starts doing cash-back deals on the A346 there will be no A346E.
BoeingBus From United States, joined May 2004, 1565 posts, RR: 16 Reply 15, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 12001 times:
May I also add that Airbus should not rest on Qatars A350 decision. If Qatar can do this to Boeing you may very see it done to Airbus. It's surprising how long its taking for Qatar to firm this orders up. I guess they are good business men over there.
Keesje From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 9765 posts, RR: 51 Reply 16, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 12001 times:
Quoting N1786b (Thread starter): I suppose this is the A340 deal Forgeard was hinting at a while back and a direct result of shopping Emirates' A340HGW A340s at "rock-botton prices"
Is there any source for the "rock bottom prices" or is it the "Pavlov" like reaction on virtually any order Airbus wins over Boeing?
WINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2780 posts, RR: 74 Reply 18, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 11929 times:
Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 13): they have publicly decided on the 773ER. They are sold on the econmonics and the bird.
Well the latest report seem to differ from your evaluation of the situation. If Qatar was so confident with B777 why did they hesitate to sign a firm order then?
Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 13): This all comes from a recent report on Airbus dropping prices due to a bad 2005 A340 sales year.
Really? I thought that Airbus decided to lower the price because Emirates wants to trade their A340HGW slots for those of the future A340E.
Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 13): If Boeing counter offers you will see a 777 in a Qatar colors..
All is still possible. Although I highly doubt it. Qatar is the launch customer for the A340HGW. Airbus will do all that's in their power to keep Qatar happy.
Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 13): Otherwise, they got a grand deal on the A340.
DAYflyer From United States, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 7 Reply 20, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 11850 times:
Quoting WINGS (Reply 4): No Qatar had only a MOU with Boeing for the purchase of 20 B777.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
If Qatar wants to keep the A-340 line open longer, that is their decision. Airbus obviously has offered a money losing price to offset the operational economics of the 777.
WINGS From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2780 posts, RR: 74 Reply 21, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 11850 times:
Quoting Leelaw (Reply 14):
Yada, Yada, Yada. A five+ year deferral for an aircraft which hasn't been launched is the moral equivalent of a cancellation. If Airbus starts doing cash-back deals on the A346 there will be no A346E.
Remember how long Northwest had their A333 on the order book?
As for the A340E it was Emirates very CEO that spoke of their interest in this particular project. As for a launch am sure you wont have to wait too much longer
Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 15): May I also add that Airbus should not rest on Qatars A350 decision. If Qatar can do this to Boeing you may very see it done to Airbus.
Qatar have already mentioned that they are just waiting for the A350 final freeze, which is expected in June.
Do you now what major aviation event is coming up at that time? I'll give you a clue. Britain
Scbriml From United Kingdom (England), joined Jul 2003, 8897 posts, RR: 50 Reply 22, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 11788 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
First off, publicly EK has only said they were "considering" delaying delivery of their A346HGWs. Airbus looking for other customers to take EK's allocated delivery slots could just as easily be seen as them putting some pressure on EK to make their minds up quickly.
Of course, behind closed doors nobody here knows what's really happened. EK could well have told Airbus they are no longer interested in the A346. But at this late stage in the game, I'd be very surprised to see an out-and-out cancellation. I think a more likely scenario is that EK will switch the order and deposits to other Airbus models, probably A359s and/or additional A380s.
Personally, I'm far from convinced that Airbus will go ahead with the A345/6E - unless they can get enough commitments from airlines to make it worthwhile.
BoeingBus From United States, joined May 2004, 1565 posts, RR: 16 Reply 23, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 11788 times:
Quoting WINGS (Reply 18):
Well the latest report seem to differ from your evaluation of the situation.
Boeing announced jointly this order. This order was just never signed and Airbus got involved with a counter offer that it seems Qatar can't refuse unless the 777 price is droped.
Quoting WINGS (Reply 18): If Qatar was so confident with B777 why did they hesitate to sign a firm order then?
The same goes for the A350. But look, these contract take months to sign as large sums of money are involved. So anything can happen during those months.
Yes, Airbus had a very bad year for the A340 considering the amount of 777 were sold. Airbus widebodies as whole was bad comparing to Boeing's order and lost customers. Airbus wants to reverse this by offering discounts, such as this for Qatar.
Quoting WINGS (Reply 18):
Very true. This could be the deal of a life time.
Sabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2563 posts, RR: 51 Reply 24, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 11788 times:
Quoting WINGS (Reply 11): Emirates have not cancelled their order. They are looking to postpone it until the A340E comes out. If this is the case than the A340 actually gets a boost to it's backlog as this will be a new order.
It means the total backlog of the A340 will be increased considerably indeed.
If this deal gets finalized beginning of May, QR will officially have to place a NEW order with Airbus for as many A340-600s as they'll need and simultaneously Airbus will let Emirates defer delivery dates on an equal number of A340-600s to allow QR to take over those production slots.
Quoting NorCal (Reply 10): Nice play by Airbus, they steal a 777 customer and solve the whole EK A346 problem in one move. They probably also have another customer for the A340E now, whenever that is supposed to happen
It is a good deal indeed, because for sure:
it steals a big future 777 customer
it makes 2 longtime Airbus customers very happy
it increases total backlog of the A340
it either guarantees a serious launch customer for the A340-600E OR puts Airbus in a good bargaining position to sell Emirates the A350 (swap of outstanding A346E orders/deposits)
One must admit John Leahy is a fantastic sales man and I'd say this is a much better buy back operation than the one Boeing showed us with the A340s from SQ a few years ago.
BoeingBus From United States, joined May 2004, 1565 posts, RR: 16 Reply 25, posted (3 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 11760 times:
Quoting WINGS (Reply 21): Do you now what major aviation event is coming up at that time? I'll give you a clue. Britain Wink
Oh yes, that is right... Airbus is notrious for double announcing their orders to look good at shows. Sleazy but it works!!!!
Cheers,
Ric
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
26 RJ111: I just hope you have a source on that, i really do.
27 Leelaw: Like I said before, if a cash-back deal turns out to be the sweetener that got QR to reverse course, ain't gonna be no A340E.
28 MarcoT: Retrospectively is funny how much philological scholarship has been wasted here investigating the differences between fine points in preposition usag
29 Scbriml: I'm sure that issue was top of QR's business plan. Of course, already being an A346 customer might just have had something to do with it as well. Obv
30 Sabenapilot: Obviously! And you have proof Airbus lets Emirates defer their orders at no cost, as well? With John Leahy as top sales man, this could be a very luc
31 Scbriml: But, and it's a big one in this context, QR did sign an MOU for exactly 60 A350s about 4 months after their public statement that they would purchase
32 FlyDreamliner: One of the fastest growing international carriers on earth wants to dump it's pretty new A340's way before they're due to buy the competitors airplan
33 Scbriml: If you're talking about EK, please show us where they said they are "dumping" their A340s.
34 Korg747: Well the real question now is, can Boeing take Qatar seriously in future orders after this event? if not, Qatar may have lost an easy way of discount.
35 Kangar: Can someone clarify this for me. The only time this cash back deal was mooted was months ago, by Mr. Leahy, and even then it was a speculative commen
36 Sabenapilot: Strange how these stunning events are systematically read differently at the other side of the Atlantic.. and in fact there alone. I haven't heard/re
37 Scbriml: Of course this is something that we are almost certainly never going to know. However, that won't (hasn't) stop the assumption that the only way Airb
38 RJ111: If you'd been keeping up, you'd realise the indication is that Airbus have maintained the EK order, whilst gaining another one for QR. Sounds like th
39 Keesje: Qatar Backs Off from Boeing Deal http://www.wlns.com/Global/story.asp?S=4685654&nav=0RbQ No news about the reasons, however price probably isn't the m
40 9V-SVC: There's WORD that Qatar Airways has backed off from a commitment to order 20 777 aircraft from Boeing, and may buy A-340 jetliners from Europe's Airbu
41 JAAlbert: I am sure Boeing customers will quickly snap up the Qatar 777 slots. I don't think there is a spare 777 to be had from any of the leasing companies at
42 Glareskin: A lot of people on this forum hate his style. But I cannot imagine anyone doubting his skills.... Anyway, good to hear that there still is a future f
44 LH477: Airbus must have offered some sweet pricing for QR to switch. This begs the question, how good are their margins on A330/340 to be able to offer these
45 Trex8: they are printing money like the mint with the A320, they are afford to lose some on another product line if they want! they are also probably raking
46 Atmx2000: While they are probably making good money on the A320, I doubt they are raking it in on the A330 orders that are being signed in the past year. These
47 YOWza: Unlikely but you never know. After all some big players in the region such as Al Habtoor have publicly come out and said they are not going to be inv
48 Scbriml: Given that QR will slowly move to an all widebody fleet and that they will have 60 A350s, about 20 (possibly more) A346s, plus a small fleet of A380s
49 B777A340Fan: Without getting into an unnecessary A v. B debate, I find it so funny that people believe that Airbus has to literally give their aircrafts away for
50 Jacobin777: IMHO, they are getting a sweet deal, and it would make great business sense for QR to go with the Airbus planes....regardless of the situation.. whil
51 Glideslope: Along with the cash back deals on the 380, and 350 there may be no Airbus!!!!
53 FlyDreamliner: They are postponing - seemingly indefinately the delivery of the A346's. Just why would they wait another 6, maybe 7 years for an airplane that can m
54 Keesje: Yes it must be extreme price cutting by airbus otherwise they couldn´t sell a plane against the technical superior & always better performing 737, 74
55 Leelaw: It can't be nearly as nice as Planet Airbus where you reside?
56 QantasA380: Hi All, Do Qatar have A340-500s, or any ordered?? If they do, would that make them the only airline in the world to operate every sub-model of the A32
57 YOWza: They have one operated by QR Amiri Flight. Not really they don't operate 343. YOWza
58 Scbriml: Including the Amiri flight, they operate every model of Airbus except the A318 and A343. A310, A300, A319, A320, A321, A332, A333, A342, A345*, A346*
59 Jfr: No one has yet commented on the possibility that there might be a connection between the recent brouhaha in Congress concerning the Dubai World ports
60 Trex8: Qatar isn't part of the UAE, if they really want to send Washington a message they can boot the USAF command center out of Qatar!
61 Jfr: If you think this is not on their minds, think again. I live in Malaysia and know what good allies some Muslim countries can be. Watching the spectacl
62 Shenzhen: Good for Qatar and Airbus. Boeing are big boys and know that Qatar hadn't ordered anything, just running their mouths at Paris. Probably a good chance
63 NumberTwelve: Wow, how pathetic: the great 77W against the cheap 340.
64 Keesje: I feared/ mentioned it earlier. Al Baker's quotes leave little room for uncertainty how he feels.. probably had a long talks all ready with the Crown
65 Toulouse: Excellent post B777340Fan... nice to see such a rational post coming from somebody flying the US flag, of which many seem for some bizarre reason to
66 Jacobin777: c'mon Toulouse, you know there aren't too many people here who believe that there will be a demise of Airbus....if they are, they need to check thems
67 Confuscius: "WSJ reporting that Qatar is backing off from its 777 commitment." This is a good example of commitment versus firm order.
68 WAH64D: I'd be so bold as to say, I don't think you will ever see a 777 in Qatar colours. In my opinion, they never had any intention to follow through with
69 Toulouse: You see Jacobin777, once I saw you had replied to me I immediately expected another sensbile post, which is what I got. One cannot generalise, and I
70 WINGS: I'm sure that you did not mean any harm but I suggest that you take another look at the original post and confirm who in fact quoted that remark. Nex
71 Astuteman: A good point, Toulouse. It is often overlooked that there are many ways for an airframe sale to provide profitability besides the actual price paid f
72 WAH64D: Very true, this is certainly the case with SAA and their A340 fleet. They have a very close working relationship with Airbus. There is an Airbus empl
73 Toulouse: Yep and I personnally know a number of Airbus employed fleet managers working at the HQ's of different airlines around the world.
74 Jfr: There are aircraft manufacturer reps' at virtually all (shall I say every!) major airlines. I was driving here in KL just last week near the old airp
75 PanAm_DC10: Reply #74 and I see no mention of the actual breakdown of what their imminent Airbus order may be for. It's not just the A345/A346 but the Airbus RFP
76 Toulouse: Point taken and agree Jfr, but that's not the point. Airbus is known for the vast after-sales package it offers its clients, and from where it gets a
77 WAH64D: Yes, I agree. Both B and A have reps at all the major airlines. I've yet to hear of Boeing providing a fleet manager and a technical team on a perman
78 Shenzhen: Google Boeing Aero Magazine and within you will find the names of permanent technical representatives of Boeing throughout the world. I believe they
79 Tigerotor77W: I realize that my post came across in the wrong way, but I didn't mean to put it in the way that you've written here. I meant it purely to mean than
80 WINGS: Well PanAm_DC10 looks like we think alike. I also came to the very same concluison in reply 4. Regards, Wings
81 Scbriml: It would seem less likely that they would want to operate a small subfleet of 772Fs with zero commonality with the rest of their Airbus fleet. The do
82 Jacobin777: I'm not disagreeing with you one bit, but unfortunately, you know as well as I do...the same thing exists on the other side of the pond (I guess that
83 Scbriml: Which of course Boeing could have said knowing full well that QR wasn't going to sign for the 777s, thus neatly giving them a face-saving get out.
84 BoomBoom: If they are worried about fuel costs, why would they buy the A340 unless Airbus is giving cash-back to make up the difference? How will the 787-10 fa
85 HB88: Maybe the often cited fuel burn disadvantage is simply not as significant an issue as people here think when all factors are taken into account? In a
86 PanAm_DC10: Apologies for the double post and not noting you had posted. I shall ensure more vigilience in the future. PanAm_DC10
87 BoomBoom: Frankly, this is a thread about Qatar choosing the A340 over the 777. Frankly, who cares about the new Qatar A340 interiors?
88 HB88: Hm, that's a quite a rude response. But I suppose that the ironclad and rigidly followed practice of keeping strictly to the topic on a.net must have
89 WINGS: No need to apologize PanAm. Great minds think alike. It's also strange that no other members have picked up on this little fact. Yes BoomBoom Itï¿
90 PanAm_DC10: I assume Qatar would as it would impact quite substantially upon the level of service and amenities which they could offer to defferentiate their pro
91 BoomBoom: Then I guess you also see no harm in all the other people's posts on why QR chose the A340 over the 777. Didn't HB88 dismiss all of these with: Frank
92 HB88: Actually no, I didn't. I wasn't going to bother re-reading back into this thread, but this latest comeback is warrants it. Taken out of context, yep,
93 BoomBoom: If you say so, I believe you. But that's not how it appeared at first glance. Don't you see how someone could misinterpret it? My apologies for my ru
94 HB88: No worries. I don't really think it could be misinterpreted and I'm the thin skinned european here! Anyway.. no harm.
Sponsor Message: 
From United States, joined Sep 2005, 462 posts, 
From Portugal, joined May 2005, 2780 posts, .gif){kind=small}
From United Kingdom (England), joined Jul 2003, 8897 posts, 
From , joined Dec 1969, posts, 
From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 6766 posts, 
From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 9765 posts, 
From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1096 posts, 
From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2563 posts, 
Printer friendly format 
