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Why No Direct LHR-LAS?  
User currently offlineLondonlady71 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2006, 152 posts, RR: 2
Posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 7056 times:

the more and more passengers I check in each day with connections to LAS and it really makes me wonder why there isnt a direct flight out of LHR.

I am sure united could make it work, so many people say they dont want to fly virgin through a bad experience or cant handle the trek to gatwick etc just wondered why there isnt a direct one, anyone have any reasons why it maybe wouldnt work for any of the major handlers?

I think it would be a nice money spinner personally as I am sure more would be inclined to use it if it was there etc! let alone all the people who otherswise have connections...

thoughts please!

49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAirways45 From United Kingdom, joined May 2000, 300 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 7012 times:

Isn't it because LAS is not allowed from LHR due to Bermuda II? Hence, it has to go from Gatwick like Atlanta, Dallas etc?

Airways45


User currently offlineLondonlady71 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2006, 152 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6975 times:

I wondered if there was a reason....as a dumb female (my blonde highlights get to me) can you explain more to me about the bermuda thing?

many thanks!


User currently offlineBritish767 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 284 posts, RR: 21
Reply 3, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6915 times:

Quoting Londonlady71 (Reply 2):
I wondered if there was a reason....as a dumb female (my blonde highlights get to me) can you explain more to me about the bermuda thing?

Basically only certain airlines can fly between the US and LHR. BMI is not allowed at the moment, and all the airlines that fly between LGW and the US probably do so because they can't fly from LHR. There are also some destinations that airlines can't fly to from LHR, like ATL, IAH (not direct anyway) and so on.


User currently offlineStarGoldLHR From Heard and McDonald Islands, joined Feb 2004, 1529 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6856 times:

it's an agreement signed in the 1970's allowing only 6 airlines to fly between the UK and the US.

In the UK these are:

VS and BA

in the US these are:

(TWA and PA) replaced by AA and UA.

Additional to this Air India and Kuwait Airlines have grandfather rights to fly from LHR to JFK (thus making up the 6).

The Agreement also restricts destinations in the US which these airlines can fly.

The theory behind the agreement is that the UK needs two airports for flights to the US, LHR and LGW.

If this was unrestricted, all the US airlines would converge all their flights on to LHR, and the amount of competition would put UK airlines out of business and Gatwick airport as a complete backwater airport.

The agreement therefore forces US destinations to be split between LHR and LGW, and restricts competition against UK airlines by limited US carriers per airport each.

It so fell that LGW serves "secondary" and "holiday" US destinations, and LHR "business" US destinations.

The Actual number of flights is also restrictive, which is why BA concentrates so much on JFK, they have more flights than destinations, and cannot economically fill them to all destinations, so concentrate on the busiest.

Although I'm not exactly sure but there was some clause about Concorde flying into IAD and JFK in the agreement, and I believe it is the cessation of concorde which could allow some of the rules to be changed.


I'm not an expert but there are many on here who will probably be able to fill in the gaps a bit better.



So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
User currently offlineIFEMaster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6726 times:

Is the VS service to LAS flying out of LHR or LGW?

User currently offlineCosec59 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6718 times:

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 5):
Is the VS service to LAS flying out of LHR or LGW?

LGW. Read the thread title  Yeah sure


User currently offlineLondonlady71 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2006, 152 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6677 times:

thank you stargold  Smile

I can understand why such an agreement is in place, just seems a shame that something that could be so good for some airlines isnt allowed etc

just a selfish dream!


User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 8, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6677 times:

Quoting Londonlady71 (Thread starter):
I am sure united could make it work

United have no feed of their own at LAS. They would have to rely on code-shares with US, which now have a hub at LAS as a result of acquiring America West. At LHR, UA also have no feed of their own and would have to rely on feed from Star Alliance carriers, some of whom refuse to code share with UA because of the disparity in service standards.

Given that LAS is a leisure market with little business traffic, I'm not at all sure it would work.


User currently offlineCarduelis From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2001, 1586 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6641 times:

LL71

When you have a few days to spare do a search on airliners.net for 'Bermuda 2'

Likewise try Google or any other search engine - there's millions of bits of information on Bermuda 2 - it really is a can of worms!

Cheers



Per Ardua ad Astra! ........ Honi Soit Qui Mal y Pense!
User currently offlineLAXDESI From United States of America, joined May 2005, 5086 posts, RR: 48
Reply 10, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6641 times:

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 4):
Additional to this Air India and Kuwait Airlines have grandfather rights to fly from LHR to JFK (thus making up the 6).

Don't the Indian private carriers, Jet and Sahara, get the rights to fly from JFK too under the new India-UK bilateral?


User currently offlineLAX2IADandORD From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 44 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6628 times:

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 4):
Additional to this Air India and Kuwait Airlines have grandfather rights to fly from LHR to JFK (thus making up the 6).

I believe Air New Zealand flies LAX to LHR which can be purchased as a separate leg (as it is a continuation of their flights from New Zealand onto England).


User currently offlineIFEMaster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6563 times:

Quoting Cosec59 (Reply 6):
LGW. Read the thread title

What an arrogant comment.

The question was for clarification purposes. I *thought* that the VS service to LAS operated out of LHR. Clearly the concept of a clarifying question was too complex for you...

But, thanks for clarifying anyway.


User currently offlineAlphascan From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 937 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6559 times:

There is only one carrier that offers "direct" flights to LAS from either London airport, and that is US Airways out of LGW. However, considering the US Airways "direct" flight involves a change of gauge at PHL, many connecting flights are just as competitive and convenient out of both London airports.

If you are meaning "nonstop" flights, there are none offered by scheduled carriers.



"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
User currently offlineUAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6538 times:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 8):
United have no feed of their own at LAS. They would have to rely on code-shares with US, which now have a hub at LAS as a result of acquiring America West. At LHR, UA also have no feed of their own and would have to rely on feed from Star Alliance carriers, some of whom refuse to code share with UA because of the disparity in service standards.

Given that LAS is a leisure market with little business traffic, I'm not at all sure it would work.

Sorry thats not correct, United, whilst it does not have the feed of a hub city, it has loads of connections on TED out of LAS to SFO, LAX, DEN and if you really want to go back on yourself, ORD and IAD.

I would say UA could easily work a 767 into LAS from LHR, post Bermuda II albeit that I doubt F would be needed only an upgraded J product and Y.

Having been in LAS over two weeks ago connecting through SFO on UA, let me tell you they have a busy operation down there, flights on both TED legs where packed.


User currently offlineIFEMaster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6522 times:

Quoting Alphascan (Reply 13):
There is only one carrier that offers "direct" flights to LAS from either London airport, and that is US Airways out of LGW. However, considering the US Airways "direct" flight involves a change of gauge at PHL, many connecting flights are just as competitive and convenient out of both London airports.

If you are meaning "nonstop" flights, there are none offered by scheduled carriers.

That's inaccurate. VS offer a direct, non-stop service LGW - LAS.


User currently offlineAlphascan From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 937 posts, RR: 13
Reply 16, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 6459 times:

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 15):
VS offer a direct, non-stop service LGW - LAS.

I stand corrected. Virgin does have a "nonstop" (VS 043/044) but I didn't see any "direct" flights offered.



"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 17, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 6429 times:

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 14):

Sorry thats not correct, United, whilst it does not have the feed of a hub city, it has loads of connections on TED out of LAS to SFO, LAX, DEN and if you really want to go back on yourself, ORD and IAD.

UA have nonstop service to LHR from SFO and LAX, so changing planes at LAS is not an advantage for either UA or for passengers. From SFO and DEN, LAS is way out of the way as place to connect on the way to LHR, compared to ORD or even IAD.

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 14):

I would say UA could easily work a 767 into LAS from LHR, post Bermuda II albeit that I doubt F would be needed only an upgraded J product and Y.

B767 CASM is too high for a leisure market like LAS. You expect UA to use the MD configuration LAS-LHR?


User currently offlineUAL777UK From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6239 times:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 17):
B767 CASM is too high for a leisure market like LAS. You expect UA to use the MD configuration LAS-LHR?

Good point, well thats that out the window!!!


User currently offlineCadet57 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 9085 posts, RR: 30
Reply 19, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6209 times:

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 4):
it's an agreement signed in the 1970's allowing only 6 airlines to fly between the UK and the US.

In the UK these are:

VS and BA

in the US these are:

(TWA and PA) replaced by AA and UA.

Uhhh, what? idk what you are taling about because US air flies quite a few flights to LGW from PHL and CLT

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 12):
What an arrogant comment.

What a rude comment  sarcastic  they were meerly pointing out your mistake....



Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
User currently offlineIFEMaster From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6196 times:

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 19):

What a rude comment. they were meerly pointing out your mistake...

Except, as I explained before, it wasn't a mistake.

It was a question to clarify.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26595 posts, RR: 75
Reply 21, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6196 times:

Quoting Londonlady71 (Thread starter):
I am sure united could make it work

Would be pretty much impossible for them to make it work.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 8):
They would have to rely on code-shares with US, which now have a hub at LAS as a result of acquiring America West.

America West acquired USAirways, not the other way around. In any case, given where most of that feed would be coming from, United may as well fly them on their own metal from there and connect through LAX

Quoting LAX2IADandORD (Reply 11):
I believe Air New Zealand flies LAX to LHR which can be purchased as a separate leg (as it is a continuation of their flights from New Zealand onto England).

Yes, they can and do

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 14):
Having been in LAS over two weeks ago connecting through SFO on UA, let me tell you they have a busy operation down there, flights on both TED legs where packed.

That is because you were at a United hub city getting on an O&D heavy flight, not because everyone was connecting from London

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 17):
B767 CASM is too high for a leisure market like LAS. You expect UA to use the MD configuration LAS-LHR?

DE uses a 763ER on FRA-LAS all the time. The issue is UA's lack of feed and presence in the market. LAS is all Ted now and focused on O&D. The people flying United to Las Vegas are not people from there, they are people going there



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineBoysteve From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 944 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6141 times:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 8):
Given that LAS is a leisure market with little business traffic, I'm not at all sure it would work

I am confident that LHR-LAS would pay. However, given slot restictions at LHR, an airline can make a different destination pay even more!


User currently offlineStarGoldLHR From Heard and McDonald Islands, joined Feb 2004, 1529 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6071 times:

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 19):
Uhhh, what? idk what you are taling about because US air flies quite a few flights to LGW from PHL and CLT

But not from LHR they dont...



So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
User currently offlineCosec59 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6066 times:

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 12):

What an arrogant comment.

If arrogance is knowing the routes then I apologise


25 StarGoldLHR : Personally I dont get the LHR obsession the Americans have. LGW doesnt have the crowds, you can get there just as quick from central london, has lower
26 Sllevin : As others have said, LAS is not a uber-high yield O&D market. It also faces the issue of density altitude during the summer, which can restrict the wi
27 Post contains images Cadet57 : right but you said that there are only 6 airlines that can fly between the us and the UK..
28 IFEMaster : Knowing the routes isn't arrogant. Assuming someone hasn't read the thread title is. Any idea what the VS load is like? And don't they vary the frequ
29 Iowaman : Don't forget the FAT and PSP UA EMB-120 flights to LAS. Even if loads are great, LAS yields are generally poor.
30 TinkerBelle : WHAT? Source/proof please?
31 Planetime : In the days of open skies suprising that US and Uk who always potray themselves as one is so childish in the aviation agreement between them.
32 Wdleiser : OOOOO please wait til tomorrow when I am done with my Senior Research paper on the Bermuda II treaty and why I believe it should be done away with. I
33 Post contains images QXatFAT : Yes...thank you! The great America West acquired USAirways. Thank you America West
34 Siromega : Given that VS has added more flights over the past few years, I would assume the loads are excellent. FWIW, when I'm down on The Strip I do run into
35 Vegasplanes : As N1120A Said: Seems like the yields are not bad either, I priced out a flight a few months back for a May trip, VS was a couple hundred more than w
36 Hawk44 : I dunno I was just in LAS and seams to me that conventions are kind of a big deal. More then half the people around me waiting at the security check
37 UAL777UK : Well if you have any sense you will avoid LGW at peak times like the plague otherwise assuming your traveling by car/coach you will be stuck on the M
38 N1120A : You ever check out that hole most of the US carriers and the charters go from? Makes LHR look like BUR Actually, from Europe, LAS is a high yield des
39 BCAL : Bermuda II is an agreement that in simple terms imposes a limit on the number of entry points ('gateways') in the USA that can be served from London,
40 Post contains images Myt332 : Plus the North West as in Manchester. For shame on you.
41 N1120A : Ah yes, where you must fend off pikey pub owners and chavs in liquor stores
42 BNE : I found this article written by Sean Mendis on a.net about 3 years ago and thought it was the best explanation of Bermuda II. You might find it with a
43 747uk : Average load factor for the month of April is 93% (LGW-LAS) which is excellent as it does not include last minute bookings so that load can only go u
44 Post contains images StarGoldLHR : Dzien Dobry, Between LHR and the US I meant to add. besides it's 7 anyway... oh whatever. I also said I wasnt an expert
45 StarGoldLHR : My company does it's conventions in Las Vegas.. Usually 90% are from the US 10% from across the globe... and in that 10% it equates to 90% of the des
46 StarGoldLHR : Gatwick actually has the best rail connections of all the Airports in the country Central London, All of the south east, Access to all of the north.
47 StarGoldLHR : At least the chavs are in the bars not protesting on the street and shutting down the country. anyway how is this relevent to the topic ? ah yes.. Ho
48 UAL777UK : Hmm, are you sure?.........How does one get on a train at Gatwick and say for instance go to Birmingham.....Yes thats right, you would need to go int
49 Post contains images IFEMaster : And it's becoming a bigger deal. There are a lot of businesses moving divisions, large operations, or even the entire headquarters to some of the gro
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