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Steven Udvar-Hazy Said More: B747-8i, B737..  
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 10515 times:

Steven Udvar-Hazy comments on the A350 have been well picked up by everyone and some interesting posts have been made on it.



However apparenty overlooked / missed were some other (probably less interresting) remarks by Steven.

Steven said Boeing is going to have a hard time finding buyers for the passenger version of the 747-8 but it depends on how competitive Boeing can be on pricing

Steven said the 737 is a 40-year-old design, it's narrower than Airbus' competing A320, and that's led some airlines to shy away from it.

http://www.heraldnet.com/stories/06/03/29/100bus_corliss001.cfm

143 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4750 posts, RR: 44
Reply 1, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 10437 times:

Yes and he also said

"The problem, he said, is that the A350 is a hybrid incorporating a some of the technology advances Boeing has put into the 787, but it is still firmly wedded to Airbus' traditional product lines and is not different enough from the A330, which it is supposed to replace.

In terms of its fuselage size, "it's still an old A300," Hazy said. "It's not optimized. It's not where the 777 and 787 are."

"But at the same time, the 737 is an efficient aircraft that's a profitable and strong-selling jet for Boeing, Hazy said."

what's your point Keesje beside to constantly spin certain portions of an article to your advantage?



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 35
Reply 2, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 10386 times:

Alan R. Mulally, CEO of Boeing Commercial Airplanes, standing on the right, looks pretty happy with what he's hearing. Are there any pictures of Leahy's reaction, Keesje?  Smile


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16872 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 10347 times:

Did he also talk about the problems the A320 is giving large customers like Jetblue who cannot fly the A320 from the East Coast to the West Coast on a consistent basis without stopping for fuel?


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 10300 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 2):
Alan R. Mulally, CEO of Boeing Commercial Airplanes, standing on the right, looks pretty happy with what he's hearing. Are there any pictures of Leahy's reaction, Keesje?

Most folks stopped challenging me for sources / links. NAV20 did I ever dissapoint you?  Wink

http://www.airbus.com/store/photolibrary/EVENTS/SIGNATURE/att00001549/media_object_image_lowres_709X473_customersILFC7D7A8.jpg

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Steven said Boeing is going to have a hard time finding buyers for the passenger version of the 747-8 but it depends on how competitive Boeing can be on pricing


User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4750 posts, RR: 44
Reply 5, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 10278 times:

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 1):
what's your point Keesje beside to constantly spin certain portions of an article to your advantage?

answer my question keesje - exactly what was your point with this thread other than to do what you've done in hundreds of other threads?

everyone on Airliners.net knows how great you are at selectivity, especially when it comes to knocking Boeing and building up Airbus.

so your answer?



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 35
Reply 6, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 10278 times:

Good one, Keesje.  Smile


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 22
Reply 7, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 10229 times:

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 1):
In terms of its fuselage size, "it's still an old A300," Hazy said. "It's not optimized. It's not where the 777 and 787 are."

"But at the same time, the 737 is an efficient aircraft that's a profitable and strong-selling jet for Boeing, Hazy said."

what's your point Keesje beside to constantly spin certain portions of an article to your advantage?

There are atleast 2 threads covering these remarks. No need to challenge Keesje.
Wathever your agenda is. Take a lesson from NAV20's reply, that's what's called good 'sports'.



SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 10199 times:

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 5):
so your answer?

Prevent the a.net public from taking notice of only half what Steven Udvar-Hazy had to say this week.


User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 10178 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 2):
Alan R. Mulally, CEO of Boeing Commercial Airplanes, standing on the right, looks pretty happy with what he's hearing. Are there any pictures of Leahy's reaction, Keesje?

No, Leahy was wearing a rubber Forgeard mask during most of the Orlando conference.

FWIW, a former law partner of mine attending the conference says there were actually audible gasps in the room as Mr. Udvar-Hazy made his comments about the A350. I haven't seen that happen very many times at one of these generally mind-numbing "dog and pony shows." Apparently, people in the audience were genuinely stunned.

The comments attributed to Mr. Udvar-Hazy regarding the 737NG and 748 in the Herald.net article seem far more sanguine, like a "two-handed economist" as Harry Truman liked to say (on the one hand...and on the other hand), compared to the lambasting he gave the A350 program yesterday.

Keesje, I think you need to find stronger medication than this item to ease your pain.

[Edited 2006-03-29 15:41:52]

[Edited 2006-03-29 15:43:21]

User currently offlineSoBe From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 256 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 10178 times:

A comment regarding the models in the photograph above.

I'm surprised that the models are not in the new colors. Not that it's important, they just seem out of place to me.


User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2752 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 10141 times:

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Steven said Boeing is going to have a hard time finding buyers for the passenger version of the 747-8 but it depends on how competitive Boeing can be on pricing

Steven said the 737 is a 40-year-old design, it's narrower than Airbus' competing A320, and that's led some airlines to shy away from it.

Thanks for sharing this information. It was an interesting observation. I wonder for how long Boeing continue to keep the 737 in production. P.S. I know there are allot of planes on order, so it want happened any time soon. Put still last year the A320 sold out the 737NG in a ratio of nearly 2-1

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 5):
answer my question keesje - exactly what was your point with this thread other than to do what you've done in hundreds of other threads?

everyone on Airliners.net knows how great you are at selectivity, especially when it comes to knocking Boeing and building up Airbus.

so your answer?

I like to answer this one. FREEDOM OF SPEECH!!!! I like what Keesje is doing. He consistently try to turn the picture in a professional matter. So what if he is a Airbus cheerleader?

All of us benefit in a broader view of what is happening. So in a way one can say that Keesje enlighten us so that if Boeing does a big mistake, he is there to tell us why. He provoke in a good way. Almost in the same way analyst where did not see the market for the A380, and some still doesn't see it.



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 10126 times:

Quoting SoBe (Reply 10):
I'm surprised that the models are not in the new colors.

Both pictures are not recent! Just to give some illustrations on the main players in this unusual open "exchange of views" and their changing love affairs.

Leahy is not the kind of person that steps back cautiously. Probably not the last cream pie flying around!


User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 10087 times:

Quoting SoBe (Reply 10):
I'm surprised that the models are not in the new colors. Not that it's important, they just seem out of place to me.

Perhaps a tell-tale sign that the photo wasn't taken at Orlando yesterday, was shot at Orlando before Udvar-Hazy's remarks, and/or Airbus has decided to economize on the model budget?  Smile


User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4750 posts, RR: 44
Reply 14, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 10062 times:

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 11):
All of us benefit in a broader view of what is happening. So in a way one can say that Keesje enlighten us so that if Boeing does a big mistake, he is there to tell us why. He provoke in a good way. Almost in the same way analyst where did not see the market for the A380, and some still doesn't see it.

and that's fine, but there are two sides of the stick, so when it's time for your cheerleaders to get beaten, don't bitch if you don't want us to bitch.

fair sport no?



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineMarcoT From Italy, joined May 2005, 253 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 10039 times:

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 5):
answer my question keesje - exactly what was your point with this thread other than to do what you've done in hundreds of other threads?

Enough with the bullying.

You're not entitled to police what can be said and can not be said on this forum, what thread can be started and what thread can not be started on this forum.

If you feeel that a thread start is deprived of merit, childish of whatever, suggest it for deletions.

By the way I remind you that amongst the rules that you have accepted there's, in prominent position, 'No hostile language or criticizing of others'.

Finally it has been said that you come out more than a bit one eyed. Being 'great at selectivity, especially when it comes to knocking Airbus and building up Boeing' would be exceedingly charitable and then some for describing the behaviour of at least a dozen of Boeing fans out there, yet nobody goes out bullying there.

I see no reasons why bullying should be tolerated the other way round, especially in a forum whose 'nicety nicety' rules means that adequately flaming in response is a no no.



Too short space for my favorite hopelessly long winded one liner
User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 10019 times:

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 5):
answer my question keesje - exactly what was your point with this thread other than to do what you've done in hundreds of other threads?

everyone on Airliners.net knows how great you are at selectivity, especially when it comes to knocking Boeing and building up Airbus.

so your answer?

Whenever these points have been brought up, its always been Hazys comments about the A350 that have been highlighted on A.net, whereas Keesje is pointing out that at the same interview Hazy also made interesting discussion points about the 737 and the 747-8, but these points have never been discussed. Hell, they havent ever been acknowledged as being said.

Or, to answer your question more closely, the points you (and Halibut in the other thread) are talking about, have already been discussed to death on a.net.

Infact, enjoy these threads! They contain the exact points you want to talk about, so why need Keesje waste another topic on stuff already being discussed?!


Gecas & Ilfc Tell Airbus To Overhaul A350 (by N1786b Mar 29 2006 in Civil Aviation)

A350 Not Optimized (by AeroPiggot Mar 23 2006 in Civil Aviation)

[Edited 2006-03-29 16:09:23]

User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 17, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 9978 times:

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Steven said Boeing is going to have a hard time finding buyers for the passenger version of the 747-8 but it depends on how competitive Boeing can be on pricing

Steven said the 737 is a 40-year-old design, it's narrower than Airbus' competing A320, and that's led some airlines to shy away from it.

and you fail to mention that he also mentioned...


"He said sales of the superjumbo A380 — at best "300 or 400 airplanes," he estimated — cannot compensate for missing out in the much larger midsize wide-body market."

doesn't sound too good, now does it Keesje?  Smile



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 9978 times:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 12):
Probably not the last cream pie flying around!

Pies, what are you thinking about? Why should Baseler throw any pies when Udvar-Hazy is doing it for him. Is Leahy going to start throwing cream pies at ILFC? It's one thing to throw pies at your competitor, it's quite another to direct them at your customer.

I'm afraid you can't take refuge in your usual rubric of a Boeing/Baseler led, media driven misinformation campaign in this case; it's a major and influential customer pointing its finger at Airbus this time.

[Edited 2006-03-29 16:18:44]

User currently offlineOyKIE From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2752 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 9890 times:

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 14):
and that's fine, but there are two sides of the stick, so when it's time for your cheerleaders to get beaten, don't bitch if you don't want us to bitch.

fair sport no?

I don't like bitching. Period. I like exchanging thoughts about airplanes because I'm plane crazy. To me if it is Boeing or Airbus who have the upper hand it doesn't matter. Just a few years back before Boeing launched the 7E7, I thought they had lost all the potential. where was their future? The hole line-up was not up to date. And look. Today, Boeing has certainly turned back better than I in my best dreams would have thought of. They took Airbus with their pants down. Airbus took the opportunity with Boeing's lack of investment in new product and took the risk with the A380. Boeing seemed disoriented during the nineties. Airbus invested allot in their products, and are now enjoying that in terms of record sales. But Boeing has been listening to the customer, and costumers needs and the 787 was just what the market wanted. It will not benefit neither of us if the market goes all Boeing or all Airbus. Then the development will stop at the expenses of the flying public. We need this competition. To get back to the point. I think we should respect all peoples comments with gratitude. You have a valid point about the A350 not being completely new. But so does Keesje. He did comment about the 747-8i and 737NG even if that was not the same shock as his comments on the A350.



Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 9829 times:

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 18):
Pies, what are you thinking about? Why should Baseler throw any pies when Udvar-Hazy is doing it for him. Is Leahy going to start throwing cream pies at ILFC? It's one thing to throw pies at your competitor, it's quite another to direct them at your customer.

I'm afraid you can't take refuge in your usual rubric of a Boeing/Baseler led, media driven misinformation campaign in this case; it's a major and influential customer pointing its finger at Airbus this time.

I agree, this thread isnt as interesting as the A350 comments made, but shouldnt Hazy have made these comments before he purchased the aircraft? Whats the logic of making them now, after the company has already committed to buying at least 16 examples of the A350?

Certainly, the A350 needs modification, noone can deny that, but it isnt the likes of ILFC that will determine whether that happens and in what direction but rather the larger orders. ILFC isnt ever going to prove to be a big enough customer to make any changes to the direction of the program in the fairly significant areas Hazy is commenting on here.


User currently offline767-332ER From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2030 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 9829 times:

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 11):
I like to answer this one. FREEDOM OF SPEECH!!!! I like what Keesje is doing. He consistently try to turn the picture in a professional matter. So what if he is a Airbus cheerleader?

All of us benefit in a broader view of what is happening. So in a way one can say that Keesje enlighten us so that if Boeing does a big mistake, he is there to tell us why. He provoke in a good way. Almost in the same way analyst where did not see the market for the A380, and some still doesn't see it.

This is the biggest crock ever!!! So basically post half of what was said so that if favors Airbus?? Do you know how you would have gotten had one of "Boeing's cheerleaders" done that? You and the rest of the European Union would be up in arms about it. Let me say that if he's not going to post factually correct information, then he should not post at all. And yes, Alitalia 744 is correct, if he got caught, then don't try to shy away from it.


To get back to the point. I think we should respect all peoples comments with gratitude. You have a valid point about the A350 not being completely new. But so does Keesje. He did comment about the 747-8i and 737NG even if that was not the same shock as his comments on the A350.

And yes, so did Steven, although Keesje failed to mention the Boeing points, and made the whole thread to be "anti-Boeing" based on Steven's comments. Again trying to knock Boeing out again and make Airbus come out on top.



Twinjets...if one fails, work the other one twice as hard!!!
User currently offlineJet-lagged From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 872 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 9829 times:

Keesje,
You are fun!


User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 9807 times:

Quoting 767-332ER (Reply 21):
This is the biggest crock ever!!! So basically post half of what was said so that if favors Airbus?? Do you know how you would have gotten had one of "Boeing's cheerleaders" done that? You and the rest of the European Union would be up in arms about it. Let me say that if he's not going to post factually correct information, then he should not post at all. And yes, Alitalia 744 is correct, if he got caught, then don't try to shy away from it.

Problem is, thats exactly whats already happened. The A350 points you say have been excluded have already been discussed in two other threads (see one of my other posts on this thread for the links), to the exclusion of all other points brought up by Hazy.

So, this thread isnt 'posting half', its posting the rest of the points Hazy made, but I do agree that they arent exactly interesting or insightful while the A350 points have some validity.


User currently offlineMidnightMike From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2892 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 9786 times:

Quoting OyKIE (Reply 11):
Thanks for sharing this information. It was an interesting observation. I wonder for how long Boeing continue to keep the 737 in production. P.S. I know there are allot of planes on order, so it want happened any time soon. Put still last year the A320 sold out the 737NG in a ratio of nearly 2-1

Backlog of over 1000 airframes, I would say that the 737NG will be around for quite some time. Yes, the A320 is outselling the 737NG 2-1, but, the 737NG has 500 orders last year, that is still quite impresseive......



NO URLS in signature
25 Dazeflight : You just don't get it. The A350 and A380 parts have widely been discussed during the past days, now show us where the B737 and B747 comments have bee
26 Post contains images OyKIE : 767-332ER. First of all. Norway is not a member of the European Union. Norway is a protectionist state and not speakers of the free market, so we hav
27 Post contains images OyKIE : Yup! Very impressive I like Jacobin777. He is just like Keesje. He is a pro Boeing just like Keesje is a pro Airbus, but he does not show direspect f
28 NW727251ADV : To be quite honest (and IMO) Keejse hasn't pointed out anything but the obvious. So congratulations, Keejse, I now officially proclaim you "Officially
29 Post contains images Poitin : I agree -- the 747-8 pax will not be a popular choice. There will be orders that are already lost to the A 380, and there will be many more lost to t
30 Post contains links Leelaw : He's certainly turned on a dime since last November: "The Airbus A350 is the natural choice for a global lessor like us," said ILFC Chairman and CEO
31 Post contains images Lumberton : I found the omission of this statement in the opening post puzzling, too. Since everything Udvar-Hazy proclaims seems to warrant a thread on a.net, I
32 FlyDreamliner : 737NG was just an enhancement to an old product. Boeing knew this. The people who bought it know this. It's just as economical, if not more so, than A
33 AirFrnt : This really isn't a surprise to anyone right? The fact that Kseeje brought it up to spin a massivly negative set of comments from one of Airbus's larg
34 Leelaw : I thought I addressed your point earlier: I did make a value judgement about the differences in tone and framework between the two sets of remarks; h
35 Post contains images Poitin : You know, I think you saw the movie already Please don't give away the ending, we really should keep them all in suspense.
36 Post contains links and images MarcoT : Maybe I'm having a senior moment, but in the article Keesje linked: http://www.heraldnet.com/stories/06/03/29/100bus_corliss001.cfm there's no refere
37 767-332ER : I definitely accept your post and I apologize at the same time. You are a class act. Regards
38 AndesSMF : OK, so Udvar-Hazy is making comments about the cabin width of both 737 and A350, I guess we all have to say we are wrong about the importance about fu
39 Dougloid : Nice pics Keesje. The A380 scale models are selling quite well-even I have a little one on my bookshelf.
40 Post contains images OyKIE : Hi 767-332ER! Thank you for your apology. I do not know about the "class act" though Should have bought one scale model my self, but I opted for the
41 Post contains images TinkerBelle : Oooh boy, this thread beat the record for the 'fastest thread to go to hell'.
42 Post contains images RichardPrice : Well, start as you mean to go on!
43 Travelin man : In other news, the sky is blue.
44 Ikramerica : Well, I agree with the 748i and 737 comments. But it's not really news. The 748i will likely need to be sold at a discount. 737 needs replacing ASAP.
45 Post contains links Travelin man : Hmmm.... apparently the 737's age isn't stopping leasing companies from buying it..... http://www.airliners.net/discussions...eneral_aviation/read.mai
46 Singapore_Air : I am surprised by some of the comments. I would have thought there was a good market for a size between the B77W and A388 = B748i. Furthermore, the Sk
47 WAH64D : Wise up, why don't you? I actually found it quite amusing. I think that was Keesje's point in all of this. We've seen numerous posts over the past fe
48 Khobar : What's the problem with this comment? It's true. How does a wider A320 help an airline's economics? That's very Rush Limbaugh of them, eh?
49 Travelin man : The difference is that the 737 is still being sold in large numbers, while the A350 is...... not.
50 OyKIE : Give it a break. Okay? WAH64D Alitalia744 has not taken this any further, and 767-332ER apologised. There is no need in lighting the fire once more.
51 AS739X : Funny how it seems like designs by Airbus and Boeing are getting knocked, yet I don't see Russia coming out with anything better! ASLAX
52 Poitin : With regard to pricing the 748 pax, that may be true, but does Boeing care as long as they make one dollar profit? All the 747 development and toolin
53 Ikramerica : I didn't say they cared, did I? Steal some orders from the 380, or at least confuse the market enough, and sell a bunch of F versions that would have
54 Post contains images Jacobin777 : err, there are enough 737 (the A320 is wider, and crushing sales) and 787 (its plastic, it might have problems, etc)....not to mention, with the A380
55 Post contains images Revelation : Well, in terms of impact, I'd say a.net has been taking notice of nine tenths of Mr. U-H's comments... This thread is just Keesje being Keesje....
56 Poitin : Actually, I think you suggested both the I and F at a discount. I think anyone needing a 748F will not get much of a discount because if you need tha
57 Post contains images Planetime : That is one thing I can agree with you keesje. Then again he is a street smart New Yorker who can't keep his mouth shut. Keesje your opinion is as ba
58 Post contains images Planetime : A320 for the most part is a superior plane to the 737. Hence this is why you see it in the sales number. In terms of widebody.....
59 Post contains images Jacobin777 : That's right.........Boeing's Baseler does try to put some spin on the 737, but at the end of the day, the A319/A320 outsold the 737 last year by a m
60 NW727251ADV : This is where I get to have some fun and be Barbara Walters (albeit for a brief second) and grill you on your comment...can you please provide some t
61 Poitin : Which must be why twice as many sales went to the A320 family verses the 737. Get real NW727251ADV, the A320 is eating the 737 2:1. Time for a change
62 NW727251ADV : Well here is your reality check. It's funny how you uninformed Airbus cheerleaders are always spitting out "A320 outselling the 737 2:1" but when the
63 NAV20 : How do you arrive at that, Poitin? Total orders last year were 918 '320 family', 578 737s; hardly 'twice as many'? This year the figures (all orders
64 NorCal : The A320 and the 737 are pretty much equally matched when it comes to operating economics. This is a well known fact in the industry. Where Airbus ha
65 Post contains images Poitin : ME AN AIRBUS CHEERLEADER ! OH,GOD what an insult. Keesje, Richard Price, please explain to the man! [Edited 2006-03-30 03:04:12]
66 Poitin : okay 918/578 or 1.588 to 1 but still embarassing. Boeing has a problem with the 737 they need to fix, or Airbus will. Sorry, mate, but to be bested b
67 Travelin man : Boeing sold the MOST ever 737s last year. It is a complete cash cow for them. They do not have a "problem" with the 737, except that Boeing is making
68 Poitin : That is the thinking I have seen wipe out company after company Ever hear of GE Computers Honeywell Computers Digitial Equipment Company Data General
69 Post contains links NAV20 : Poitin, of course I agree that Boeing are vulnerable to an extent on the 737. But, interestingly, the reason that the A320 is selling a bit better see
70 Post contains images Khobar : What math are you using to come up with 918=2x569? The real reason: "Analysts suggest that the A320’s popularity has less to do with technical supe
71 Post contains images Ikramerica : Poitin - I basically agree with a lot of your points, but you gotta read more closely. You can think that, but... I wrote 748i. That's not the 748F. J
72 CWFan : I find the A vs B war the best show on the planet (in business, at least) but I'll take a gander at A's strategy: 1. Continue to Develop and refine th
73 Post contains links NAV20 : In any case, this seems to put the 737 back in front for 2006 so far:- "GE Commercial Aviation Services said Wednesday that it had placed a firm order
74 Ckfred : I tend to disagree. Certainly, one could argue that a route, such as ORD-GRB would make sense with a turboprop, but routes such as ORD-STL ORD-DTW, D
75 Dougloid : A problem a lot of people would like to have, too.
76 Ikramerica : I think that's a bit harsh. The 737 is showing it's age, and Boeing needs to replace it sooner than later. It's by no measure a "problem" though, con
77 Milan320 : Why mention it when it's already being discussed to death in two previous threads. Why re-hash it? By that logic, how come you didn't mention what Ud
78 Post contains images Jacobin777 : I was responding to a thread starter......which makes your "by your logic" comment a bit irrelevent...... you are free to leave..
79 We're Nuts : Then Steven Udvar-Hazy is an idiot.
80 Post contains links and images Keesje : Khobar, I remembered that article & opted to help you add the sentence above you obviously overlooked. Miller also said the A320 was slightly more fu
81 Kangar : The peculiarity of his statements is that Udvar - Hazy has now just probably added 2 percent to the price of the B787-9 and B787-10......If the A350 i
82 Planetime : Well I would say sales numbers speak for themselves. And the same applies for widebodies. Only X factor in all this could be the amount of discountin
83 Astuteman : Out of interest, would this statement apply to his A350 comments too?
84 WAH64D : CARGO. 737 doesn't have any capacity for containers in the hold. A320 does. This is a major benefit of A320.
85 We're Nuts : I don't agree with his doom-and-gloom predictions about that plane, but specifically I meant anyone who thinks the A320 is superior to the 737 is men
86 Astuteman : Thanks for the clarification.
87 Leelaw : I'd suggest instead of feeling frustrated and leaving, you should use this forum as an opportunity to craft, hone, and present your own superior argu
88 Post contains images MarcoT : Anyone claiming that Poitin (and Ikramerica and Jacobin77 for extension) is an Airbus cheerleader is really, really living in some other planet  [Ed
89 MarcoT : Ehem, Airbus sold the MOST ever widebodies last year, yet Humbert and Forgeard were not pretending that there were not any problem with the A340s, au
90 Leelaw : Isn't Mr. Miller a different person than Mr. Yousef? Different analyst, different opinion. Khobar certainly hasn't misrepresented what Mr. Yousef sai
91 MarcoT : This has been suggested here for every Airbus sale. The very fact that A is able to undercut B while maintaining a better margin is the proof that th
92 Post contains images MarcoT : Well he really cannot go wrong here: if he fails in his attempt to make Airbus rethink the A350 he would anyway increase the desirability of the 'as
93 Post contains images Jacobin777 : spoken like a true lawyer...... I'm not that bad. in seriousness, I question Airbus management more than anything else....
94 Post contains images WINGS : Well We're Nuts many around here should be offered restraining devises so that they don't hurt other members. Myself included. Regards, Wings
95 Khobar : The wide-bodies are where the margins are higher. Selling 1000 A320's is not the same as selling the equivalent number of A330/340/350/380's. I'd hav
96 RichardPrice : No it isnt, but its all money and as long as its keeping Airbus in the black, you wont hear Airbus management complaining that loudly.
97 Poitin : Basically what I propose. It may well have the same diameter as the 787, but it would have to re-engineered for its mission. It should be a composite
98 Post contains images Poitin : SORRRY!!!! I need new glasses!
99 Keesje : This is your opinion. Mr ILFC gave a speech this week some folks feel put every thing up side down. (the A part of the speech that is). If a sells 60
100 Khobar : I'm still wanting someone to explain how a wider cabin provides an economic advantage to the airlines. Anyone?
101 Post contains images Leelaw : I doubt your reaction would be so muted if he had taken the opportunity to tell Boeing to rethink the 787 in the "B" part of the speech?
102 Poitin : I said turboprops should have the under 500 mile routes. The reason has to do with the economics of jet engines. They must fly high to be at all effi
103 Poitin : Hey, telling people they have cancer is a harsh, but it has to be done. Boeing has milked the 737 for too long and one day, suddenly no sales at all.
104 Poitin : IF you can pack nine sardines in a can instead of eight, then you are more efficient. CASM is largely determined by the pitch of the seat and the wid
105 NW727251ADV : Well IIRC Lockheed's problem wasn't milking a design to death until it resulted in their death. Lockheed happened to get the short end of the stick w
106 Travelin man : "Widebodies" is different from "A340s". the A330 is what is keeping the Airbus widebody market going. Airbus did NOT sell the most A340s last year, s
107 Post contains images Revelation : Tell that to GECAS, who just signed up for 30 more. You too? IMHO the analogy is flawed. DEC had the blinders on, even though some of their own in ho
108 Poitin : Blame the spelling checker for the misspelling, and my not checking it. However, DEC is by your arguement part of HP as well, which it is, for DEC wa
109 NorCal : Talk to the engine manufacturers, they are the ones who need to have the breakthrough. Boeing is waiting on them.
110 Poitin : I was working at DEC at the time, in the late 1970's and I worked in central corporate marking as a technologist. Although I do not remember PRISM, D
111 787engineer : The 747-8 may not find very many buyers for the pax version, but it will eat into the a380F market and of course the freighter versions should pay fo
112 Milan320 : That you were, but in a public discussion forum ... -Milan320
113 Post contains links and images Revelation : I could, but why don't you just send e-mail to subscribe@internal-studies.boeing.com and le-subscribee-vous@internal-studies.airbus.com and get on th
114 Poitin : Golly, they can't find new engines for the 737 replacement. Wasn't that the big reason Boeing couldn't commit to the 787-10 just a few weeks ago, and
115 Khobar : That's true, but I was unclear in my post in that I was referring to the wider cabin of the A320 that was cited as an advantage for the airlines. I'd
116 Post contains links Babybus : Hey! You lead the way and we'll follow. http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/news....r=02&month=jan&story=ops-en-240102 In another article Ryanair said the
117 We're Nuts : It doesn't, it's a myth. The 737 flies higher, climbs more quickly, cruises faster, burns less fuel, has better dispatch reliablity, and requires les
118 Post contains images Jacobin777 : While Boeing is probably working on a new Y1 as we speak, IIRC, what they really need are more superiour engines......by the time all is said and don
119 RichardPrice : I dont think so, they needed to get something out there and the delay a full from scratch project would have created would have put them another 2 or
120 NorCal : It is not that simple, the new 787 engines were years in the development. The "new" 787-10 engine is just a derivative of the original 787 engines. T
121 787engineer : The big reason Boeing couldn't commit on the 787-10 WAS the engines. These engines didn't appear out of thin air. Boeing obviously requested them, th
122 A342 : Excuse me ??? The A32S flies to the most challenging airports of the world, including the highest one in the world. Airlines have sometimes selected
123 787engineer : I think the 737 is arguably a little more efficient than the A320, but its quite negligible and I'm sure on some mission profiles the A320 is more ef
124 A342 : Actually in my example (Druk Air), the A319 was chosen over the 73G. Funny note about the A319: It´s called "mountain goat" by chinese airlines.
125 Poitin : Ah, yes. First, these engines for the 787-10 did appear as soon as RR found reason for them to. I.e. There was business. With in no time GE said "me
126 Post contains images Poitin : In all due honestly, I know what you are saying is true. And they have to build something until they can start building the new plane in say 6 to 8 y
127 RichardPrice : I thought that it was always known that the engines were there, it was Boeing that was holding back because RR and GE had been known to be in talks w
128 Post contains images Poitin : Well, you might have known, but Boeing didn't (right, sure ) As for what really happened, I suspect you have at least part of the story. I am sure th
129 NorCal : The GEnx and Trent 1000 have been designed to grow from their inception. A lot of the design work for the "new" 787-10 engine was incorporated into i
130 Post contains images Jacobin777 : of course you can.. there is only one "larger" version..-300ER (-300's aren't too important in terms of sales for Boeing...the recent orders might be
131 Ikramerica : I think it goes that the 319 has better takeoff performance than the 73G, but the 738 has better performance than the A320, but I could be wrong on t
132 Mham001 : Not to mention the 320s that Airbus counted while Boeing waited to count 737s(China)
133 Ikramerica : If you back out china (like you should as they choice proves nothing about the viability of the aircraft and everything about politics) from last yea
134 Post contains images 787engineer : Wait a minute, who lost again? I just want to clarify .
135 AvObserver : With due respect to your opinion, Mr. Udvar-Hazy has been fair in criticism of both Airbus and Boeing where they have notable product deficiencies. W
136 Poitin : The 777 group who wanted to protect their dear 777-200 from a better solution were the losers. And it was us, the flying public. who gained by gettin
137 Planetime : Very good point. And widebodies is where the money is. Its like selling Toyota corollas and selling Mercedes S500. Bit of a difference.
138 Khobar : " target=_blank>http://abcnews.go.com/Business/Busin...=true That would fall under "technical reasons" which were mentioned. And? And? From that link:
139 NAV20 : RichardPrice, I think that's a good example of how Airbus' habit of counting 'commitments' can cloud the judgement of even quite sensible observers.
140 Ckfred : Poitin: You have to remember that many people don't want to fly turboprops. Ever since the Eagle ATR crashed in Roselawn, Indiana, due to holding in i
141 We're Nuts : On the contrary, I think his "lofty position in the industry" gives him the perfect motive to try to manipulate it. Why else would he author this gar
142 Ckfred : The question of whether the 787-10 is going to eat into sales of the 777-200 is legitimate. My guess is that sales of the 777-200 and -200ER could tak
143 Ikramerica : Because it's longer and has a more optimized lower hold shape (due to 757 style nose and other tweaks), the 787-10 will hold more LD3s than the 772ER.
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