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New Pro-Wright Amdt Group--Oh Brother! -2-  
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (8 years 7 months 14 hours ago) and read 4102 times:

As the other one hit the 200-post threshold, here's part-2 for our dial-up friends...

If you're looking for something from the old one, it's at:
http://www.airliners.net/discussions...eneral_aviation/read.main/2671403/

[Edited 2006-03-29 20:46:07]

219 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9236 posts, RR: 21
Reply 1, posted (8 years 7 months 13 hours ago) and read 4077 times:

I think that MattRB made a decent post on that last thread... Two E/W runways and all the stuff that WN would need with in the same ballpark of cost as they have at DAL... I think that would actually work. I said before, I really do not have any problem with them moving to DFW. Wherever WN can go to make a profit and remain very competitive, that is what I would like to see.


Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 7 months 13 hours ago) and read 4072 times:

MattRB's plan would cost billions, with a B.

User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9236 posts, RR: 21
Reply 3, posted (8 years 7 months 13 hours ago) and read 4061 times:

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 2):
MattRB's plan would cost billions, with a B.

Oh yea, duhh... Forgot about the construction of the facilities. Maybe I should change my name to clown83 for making foolish post after foolish post...  silly   dopey 



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineTismfu From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 88 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 7 months 13 hours ago) and read 4059 times:

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 1):
I think that MattRB made a decent post on that last thread... Two E/W runways and all the stuff that WN would need with in the same ballpark of cost as they have at DAL...

I'm no ATC, but wouldn't that create horrible alignment issues with the primarily N/S runways used at DFW? In a hypothetical, legal issues-aside world, if DFW were to build WN their own runways, wouldn't they want them to be N/S?

I think the only possible 'special treatment' WN would get at DFW is their own terminal, perhaps a terminal like Boeing7E7 mentioned a while back which would stretch across South Int'l Parkway and thus afford WN quick access to/from either side of the airport.


User currently offlineMattRB From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1624 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (8 years 7 months 13 hours ago) and read 4054 times:

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 2):
MattRB's plan would cost billions, with a B.

Yes it would, but WN would be flying out of DFW in a cost structure compatible with thier operating model. And this whole W/S bs would be done and over with.

'Course, like I also said, we could just repeal some legislation and call it a day as well.



Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
User currently offlineMattRB From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1624 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (8 years 7 months 13 hours ago) and read 4046 times:

Quoting Tismfu (Reply 4):
I'm no ATC, but wouldn't that create horrible alignment issues with the primarily N/S runways used at DFW? In a hypothetical, legal issues-aside world, if DFW were to build WN their own runways, wouldn't they want them to be N/S?

Probably. But the space at the south end of the field won't allow for an 18/36 alignment.. hence the 13/31 mix.. which won't work since you'd have A/C criscrossing on the glidepaths when landing N

Quoting Tismfu (Reply 4):
I think the only possible 'special treatment' WN would get at DFW is their own terminal, perhaps a terminal like Boeing7E7 mentioned a while back which would stretch across South Int'l Parkway and thus afford WN quick access to/from either side of the airport.

Now if they coupled that with an offer of the same rent/landing fees for a guaranteed period (talking decades long), that might work.. but a snowball would have a better chance of surviving hell..



Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9236 posts, RR: 21
Reply 7, posted (8 years 7 months 12 hours ago) and read 4046 times:

Quoting MattRB (Reply 6):
Now if they coupled that with an offer of the same rent/landing fees for a guaranteed period (talking decades long), that might work..

That is true...

Quoting MattRB (Reply 6):
but a snowball would have a better chance of surviving hell..

And so it this... It looks like WN is stuck between a rock and a hard place for the time being...



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineTxAgKuwait From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1803 posts, RR: 42
Reply 8, posted (8 years 7 months 12 hours ago) and read 4033 times:

>>And so it this... It looks like WN is stuck between a rock and a hard place for the time being...<<

It won't be for long, though.

One thing congressmen like to be able to do is tell their constituents that they've done something nice for them. Particularly in an election year.

The delegations from TN, AZ, NV, NE...maybe CO and FL too....would love to be able tell voters that they've sponsored legislation that reduces the cost of travel.

Wonder why WN has not yet announced more new cities? They might very well be planning to pony up new service to some city in return for a certain congressman sponsoring certain legislation.

The elections are 7 months away, in November. Folks are not going to be willing to let the two cities attempt to work out a deal when they've never been able to agree to one before.

The talk of compromise is hysterically funny - you ought to read some of the stuff in the FW Startlegram. When the subject of compromise comes up, American states "Wright was the compromise" and offer to go no further. When Dallas broaches the subject of Alliance, Fort Worth says that is not a subject up for discussion. When Fort Worth mentions a total closure of Love Field, Dallas just laughs.

Travel between Dallas and other places outside the WA penumbra is interstate commerce. Thus the issue is not strictly local.

Wright is going away. The only question is what form will its departure take.


User currently offlineMattRB From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1624 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (8 years 7 months 12 hours ago) and read 4028 times:

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 8):
Wright is going away. The only question is what form will its departure take.

Agreed. The dam wall is slowly being chipped away at and we're getting close to seeing either a partial or total collapse altogether. Either way, I'll bet WN will be serving more destinations out of DAL by the end of the year.



Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
User currently offlineKabAir From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 245 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (8 years 7 months 12 hours ago) and read 4021 times:

I don't get this whole thing. I'm anti-Wright, but if were the CEO of WN (this is probably why I'm not)  Smile I'd do things a lot differently. I'd say "OK, forget it" and move operations COMPLETELY out of Dallas. HQ, gone, and every last flight gone. Then I'd find some non anti-competitive city and start up a sizeable operation there, replacing what I had in DAL except now I can fly wherever I want. Sure it'll cost a lot of money to move HQ, pull out of a city, and start a new one - but I'd be able to make a lot more flying wherever I wanted plus I wouldn't spend millions upon millions trying to change legislation.

Then the mommies and daddies and kiddies in the DFW area would all be safe from the blight of WN and could really enjoy living in Dallas. And I mean they'd better REALLY enjoy being there because they won't be going on vacation anytime soon what with WN gone and AA's new $24,000 one way fares to OKC.



wow, there sure are a lot of expert economists on this forum....
User currently offlineMattRB From Canada, joined Apr 2005, 1624 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (8 years 7 months 12 hours ago) and read 4018 times:

Quoting KabAir (Reply 10):
but if were the CEO of WN (this is probably why I'm not)

Quite  Wink

Burning bridges in the business is never a smart move. WN pulling up and out of Dallas wouldn't garner them any brownie points with ANY of the cities they serve and would more than likely cast a negative pall over the company among businesses and travellers alike (erecting a billboard over DAL comprised of a giant middle finger and the words "FU Dallas!" underneath would accomplish pretty much the same thing).



Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible.
User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 7 months 11 hours ago) and read 4005 times:

Quoting KabAir (Reply 10):
AA's new $24,000 one way fares to OKC.

Sssh!  shhh  They might hear you...


User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9236 posts, RR: 21
Reply 13, posted (8 years 7 months 11 hours ago) and read 3988 times:

Quoting MattRB (Reply 11):
Burning bridges in the business is never a smart move. WN pulling up and out of Dallas wouldn't garner them any brownie points with ANY of the cities they serve and would more than likely cast a negative pall over the company among businesses and travellers alike (erecting a billboard over DAL comprised of a giant middle finger and the words "FU Dallas!" underneath would accomplish pretty much the same thing).

Yeah, that would definitely give off a bad vibe to the rest of the traveling universe... If they were to do that, which city would the move to, Amarillo, Lubbock, Dodge City??? How about moving down the road to Waco... I dunno, I am no expert in this... The trouble with that, absolutely no competition, and in the middle of no where...

Quoting KabAir (Reply 10):
Then the mommies and daddies and kiddies in the DFW area would all be safe from the blight of WN and could really enjoy living in Dallas. And I mean they'd better REALLY enjoy being there because they won't be going on vacation anytime soon what with WN gone and AA's new $24,000 one way fares to OKC.

I have to say that I do like the humor in this  Wink



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineTxAgKuwait From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1803 posts, RR: 42
Reply 14, posted (8 years 7 months 11 hours ago) and read 3988 times:

>>$24,000 one way fares to OKC.<<

Now, now, you can get a round trip for $16,000 with 21 day advance purchase. Assigned seating on the luxurious SAAB 340. And 360 AAdvantage miles to boot.

How could anyone pass up a deal like that?


User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9236 posts, RR: 21
Reply 15, posted (8 years 7 months 11 hours ago) and read 3984 times:

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 14):
>>$24,000 one way fares to OKC.<<

Now, now, you can get a round trip for $16,000 with 21 day advance purchase. Assigned seating on the luxurious SAAB 340. And 360 AAdvantage miles to boot.

How could anyone pass up a deal like that?

that's even better!!!

Make it a vintage DC-3 and you've got yourself a deal!  Wink



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineKabAir From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 245 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (8 years 7 months 11 hours ago) and read 3976 times:

LOL, great stuff. I know you guys are all right, they couldn't just pull out of Dallas. And it wouldn't be smart, you're right. It's just my emotional reaction to the whole thing. Seems funny to me that the government likes to bail out near-death airlines (via Ch.11) but penalize one of the few that is actually a money maker and really good for their employees and the economy. And yes, yes I know that Ch.11 is designed to help creditors too and blah blah blah but I still think it's a real problem.


wow, there sure are a lot of expert economists on this forum....
User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (8 years 7 months 11 hours ago) and read 3967 times:

"I see you're unemployed--tried applying at SWA/PIT?"

I thought about it when WN started service here, but the thought of long lines, and more ex-US Airways applicants than you could shake a stick at made me cautious. Yes, I love WN and what they've done for the airline industry. Plus, using every trick PSA ever used doesn't hurt either. Time will tell, maybe I will get on with WN someday. Right now, I'm just trying to do whatever I can do to make a buck. Thanks, though.



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9236 posts, RR: 21
Reply 18, posted (8 years 7 months 11 hours ago) and read 3967 times:

Yeah, I think the vulnerability level skyrockets as a result...


Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineTismfu From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 88 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 7 months 10 hours ago) and read 3949 times:

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 14):
And 360 AAdvantage miles to boot.

There's a 500-mile minimum on all AA flights.  Wink


User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 7 months 9 hours ago) and read 3922 times:

Quoting MattRB (Reply 5):
Yes it would, but WN would be flying out of DFW in a cost structure compatible with thier operating model. And this whole W/S bs would be done and over with.

You don't need what you propose. A cross field terminal on the South side of DFW is sufficient to allow Southwest greater airfield access and can be done for about $250 million. Add a sixth North/South runway and elimination of the cross runways and DFW's agregate handling rate (coupled with DAL operation removal) increases from 297 to 322 flights per hour. Add two more close parallels over time and you net about 380-400 operations per hour. What you propose diminishes capacity, thus increases costs.

[Edited 2006-03-30 01:13:50]

User currently offlineCjpark From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1266 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (8 years 7 months 6 hours ago) and read 3876 times:

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 8):
One thing congressmen like to be able to do is tell their constituents that they've done something nice for them. Particularly in an election year.

The delegations from TN, AZ, NV, NE...maybe CO and FL too....would love to be able tell voters that they've sponsored legislation that reduces the cost of travel.

Wonder why WN has not yet announced more new cities? They might very well be planning to pony up new service to some city in return for a certain congressman sponsoring certain legislation.

I can hear them now. Hey while I could not get that new road/bridge/levy/project funding/displaced worker program/etc for your City but at least you can now fly cheaply to Dallas.

See I am looking out for you. Vote for me!

Then during the next election they swear that WN promised they would start service from our airport we don't understand what happened.

Repeal of the WA does not affect as many people as the drove would like to pretend it might affect. There are few Congressional Districts where suggested service would be enough to sway votes in Congress. Those that could have all ready signed up and yet they still don't have enough sponsors to assure a vote anytime during this Congress.



"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
User currently offlineHPLASOps From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 7 months 6 hours ago) and read 3866 times:

Quoting TxAgKuwait (Reply 8):
The delegations from TN, AZ, NV, NE...maybe CO and FL too....would love to be able tell voters that they've sponsored legislation that reduces the cost of travel

That's right, keep acting like WN's problem is America's problem. America is in aviation hell because WN chose to operate out of an inferior airport. Are you going to be wearing "Gary Kelly for President" buttons anytime soon? What about a tshirt? I mean really, this whole Southwest is the messiah airline that is saving America from the evil airlines business is making me puke.

"Kill off US, and DOZENS of cities in our fine country, and in the most populous quadrant of our county at that, lose vital business links across the Northeast. Is Southwest ever going to serve Binghamton, NY, Erie, PA, Charleston, WV, or Salisbury, MD? I think not. Should their travelers be forced to start driving 150 miles to the next-nearest airport in the harsh winter snows because Southwest killed off the only airlines serving these cities? Nope. I don't want to pay more highway taxes to fund all these people who now have to drive either." (Tornado82 - from the previous thread)

Kinda hard for the aviation messiah to please everyone, now is it? I would now like to public thank Southwest Airlines. Thank you for lowering the standards of air travel. Thank you for making passengers expect less from an airline. Thank you for forcing passengers to stand in the A line for 2 freaking hours at an airport like idiots just so they can have their choice of seat. Thank you for advertising really low fares for low demand flights and then charging the same as every other airline on high demand flights. Thank you for choosing a different business model than every other airline and then trying to get the government to accomodate you. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.


User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 7 months 6 hours ago) and read 3851 times:

Quoting Cjpark (Reply 21):
I can hear them now. Hey while I could not get that new road/bridge/levy/project funding/displaced worker program/etc for your City but at least you can now fly cheaply to Dallas.

To how many people does flying cheaply to Dallas appeal to? I can think of dozens of people in my family who couldn't give 2 craps of the price to Dallas. My grandma wouldn't even go up with me at the controls in a Cessna, let alone "that airline that killed that little boy." And everyone has grandma's, aunt's, etc. just like mine who don't fly, period, but won't miss an election for anything, so this issue is a non-issue to them. That new prescription drug plan, or that social security check is a far bigger issue than anything aviation related.

Even in the biggest cities, maybe 1500 a day will benefit from cheaper fares to/from Dallas., and you can assume many of those are repeat flyers who do the run over and over and over again. So maybe, just maybe, at the end of the Congressional term you've pleased 5000 people in your district. Now chances are only half of those people will vote, that's a national trend. You're down to 2500. Now chances are that over over half of those people already voted for you anyways, after all, you're already in office. Now you're down to 1000 people. Well, half of those remaining people wouldn't vote for someone of your party if their life depended on it. Now you're down to 500 people. Well, you voted for ____ (abortion, immigrants, taxes, etc.) and you pissed off half of the remaining people who may have voted for you.

Congratulations, allowing Southwest to fly from your city to Dallas earned you 250 new voters. But let's say there are 20 American Airlines employees in your district at that airport you just let Southwest fly to DAL from, there are also 20 USAirways employees, and 20 Delta employees who remember how their bretheren got furloughed in the closure of the DFW hub. Well they each tell their spouses not to vote for you either, and some of their kids listen as well, because you just spoonfed the enemy. So, at the end of it, bringing Southwest to your district netted you less than 100 new votes. In an election as large as a Congressional district, VERY FEW come down to 100 votes. Let's not forget people like me, a good way for Santorum and Specter to guarantee I wouldn't vote for them (not that I'd ever vote for an extremeist like Santorum anyways) is to further harm all the other legacy carriers, therefore the industry as a whole, by giving spoonfed leglisative benefits to Southwest Airlines. At the end of the day, any Congressmen that haven't been explicitly given kickbacks from Southwest are NOT going to vote for Wright repeal. Do you think a Senator from Iowa, where Southwest doesn't fly at all, cares? How about that Senator from Vermont? Or the powerful Mr. Byrd from West Virginia? Maybe those guys from the Dakotas? Montana? Alaska and Hawaii? Why are they going to vote for Southwest Airlines' benefit while harming the airlines that DO serve their states?

I'd LOVE to see the campaign contributions received by some of these vocal Southwest-supporter politicians though. Just like when Santorum tried killing off the National Weather Service, and had received 10s of thousands from AccuWeather... hidden in the names of the wives of AccuWeather's CEO, BoD, etc.


User currently offlineOPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 7 months 6 hours ago) and read 3851 times:

Quoting HPLASOps (Reply 22):
Kinda hard for the aviation messiah to please everyone, now is it? I would now like to public thank Southwest Airlines. Thank you for lowering the standards of air travel. Thank you for making passengers expect less from an airline. Thank you for forcing passengers to stand in the A line for 2 freaking hours at an airport like idiots just so they can have their choice of seat. Thank you for advertising really low fares for low demand flights and then charging the same as every other airline on high demand flights. Thank you for choosing a different business model than every other airline and then trying to get the government to accomodate you. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

I know you're relatively new to the industry, but you really should consider looking at the history of the industry. If you did, I think you'd realize how off-base your comments are.

SWA has never claimed to be the "messiah" you think, and such characterizations (and the behaviors that accompany them) are yours alone.

Go back and look at any industry, (steel, automobiles, passenger railroads. etc.) and you'll see that they had a lifecycle. They were once all well-established industries, but then "change" came. Some firms in them adapted well, some not as well, and some not at all.

In the case of the airlines, the milestone was deregulation in 1978. Under the old system, roues and fares were dictated by the CAB. If Airline-A signed a new labor contract that increased their costs, Airline-A went to CAB and requested (and usually got) a fare hike to cover it. This kind of system didn't foster the need for effeiciency, since one's cost were always getting covered.

Southwest never operated under that system, since its formative years (1971-1978) were under the Texas Aeronautics Commission (TAC), and not the CAB. With no "Sugardaddy" system in place, Southwest had to be efficient from Day-1, and that mindset continues to the present day.

After deregulation in 1978, the market (and not the CAB) dictated fares and routes, and various airlines adapted to varying degrees. I'm sorry that you feel that Southwest is somehow the "Great Satan" of the airline business, but I'm afraid that's an overly simplistic analysis. Rather than get your information via anecdotes and "I heard that.." you might try some objective reading in various books that are out there...


25 HPLASOps : Care to recommend some books that weren't written by WN folk? I'd be happy to read up.
26 HPLASOps : I didn't imply that WN claimed themselves to be such, but rather, you and TxAg seem to be such loyal "followers." And they all have adapted, all at s
27 OPNLguy : Sure... -John Nance's "Flying Colors"... -From Prairie To Planes, Payne & Fitzpatrick, ISBN #1-893451-00-3, Three Forks Press A complete history of t
28 DALNeighbor : Yet the Pro-Wright parade is expecting just that from WN. Leave a perfectly already paid for airport and rebuild all your infrastructure 10 miles awa
29 Tornado82 : If WN only has a couple hundred million in infrastructure assets at DAL (and that's probably generous) it's not going to cost BILLIONS to move to DFW
30 DALNeighbor : Graveyard.
31 Tornado82 : Yeah, just like happened to every airline that left old Stapleton, right?
32 SPREE34 : Poor analogy. Stapleton was closed on day 1 of DIA's operation.
33 SPREE34 : So well put sir!! As is becoming so common in US society, the guy who gets out and succeeds by working hard is vilified by those who had "Sweetheart"
34 DALNeighbor : No airline was headquartered at Stapelton.
35 Tornado82 : Ok fine. US was at old PIT, moved to new PIT, and was quite profitable in the years immediately following. It wasn't until later that US started losin
36 Post contains images OPNLguy : Actually, Frontier (v1.0) was... I should hasten to add that Southwest wasn't the only airline that propered that didn't operate under the old CAB sy
37 Cjpark : What does that have to do with anything? Exxon is headquartered in Irving but all the headquarters is, is an office building. Same as for WN just an
38 Steeler83 : Yeah, years later I think in the late 90s... Then 9-11 essentially put a dagger right through its heart...
39 OPNLguy : ...and eat the cost of ferrying 15 aircraft DFW-DAL for overnight maintenance work and then ferrying them all back DAL-DFW early in the morning? Not
40 TxAgKuwait : >>...and eat the cost of ferrying 15 aircraft DFW-DAL for overnight maintenance work and then ferrying them all back DAL-DFW early in the morning? Not
41 OPNLguy : Of course, in addition to the added cost of cross-ferrying aircraft, there's also the added expense of modifying all 451 aircraft so that the vertica
42 TxAgKuwait : Or just demolish the bridges. In the big scheme of things, that probably won't cost the city any more than closing Love Field would.
43 ScottB : At the time, USAir wasn't headquartered at PIT, and they only moved to the new terminal. The airport is still in the same location. The new PIT termi
44 Post contains images OPNLguy : One of the most overlooked aspects of the issue, not to mention one of the most insidious as far as decsionmaking goes... Nicely worded!
45 USPIT10L : I have Hard Landing and Nuts! and have read Flying Colors. Where can I get From Prairie to Planes? I would love to read it!
46 Cjpark : Never Say Never OP! Now now we all know how much more valuable Love Field is to the City as taxable private property than in its current usage. How c
47 DALNeighbor : Even better... Graveyard. Spending a billion with a B (as T82 put it), for WN to recreate all of its infrastructure 10 miles away would be stupid. Yo
48 ScottB : How convenient for you to mischaracterize the history behind the Wright Amendment. Jim Wright was behind the Wright Amendment, not some fictional req
49 Tornado82 : It wouldn't be a Billion for Southwest to move their stuff. It would have been a Billion for NEW stuff for Southwest PLUS new runways and terminals.
50 Cjpark : Oh boy here we go again with the history lesson. You are partially correct but Southwest only won the right to fly intrastate routes from Love Field.
51 ScottB : No; the Supreme Court ruling more-or-less stated that Southwest could operate from Dallas Love as long as Love remained open as an airport. At the ti
52 Tornado82 : Actually Southwest was given a choice between nothing, a little more than nothing, and everything they've ever wanted in the world. All they had to d
53 DALNeighbor : In the very next breath, Wright supporters will say that the only reason WN has survived and prospered is BECAUSE they stayed at DAL. Make up your mi
54 OPNLguy : ..other than having AA stomp on the small 20-30 aircraft airline, just like that dinosaur did to the caveman in the recent Fedex commercial....
55 Tornado82 : Everyone else that tried to stomp on WN failed, why is AA different? For that matter, WN rolled into PHL and PIT in a blaze of glory looking to give
56 OPNLguy : Back then, they were the first ones, and it occurred when SWA was at its smallest, and thus most vulnerable. Again you characterize this as an "emoti
57 Post contains links and images SCCutler : Untrue. Pror to the Wright Amendment, there was no restriction on where Southwest could fly from Love Field. The seeds of truth are found in your mis
58 OPNLguy : True, with the exception that N406BN was actually operated by SWA flightcrews and F/As.... I worked that bird many times...
59 Post contains images Steeler83 : "Get nothing, get a little bit of something, or get everything you've always wanted, given that you move to DFW. Of course it wouldn't matter b/c AA
60 Tornado82 : What's emotional about that? That's no different than saying I'm afraid to charter a Learjet to go to Vegas with my friends next month because I know
61 Incitatus : This is not what deters Southwest from moving to DFW. In the long run the infrastructure can be moved 100% as it ages to replacement. Southwest wants
62 Post contains images Steeler83 : Which basically explains what one of my earlier arguments was: they are running a business without making any unnecessary expenses, and doing all it
63 Post contains images Lightsaber : Wow, a very logical Wright post... What has happened to a.net. Seriously, for those who try to bring a macho attitude to the airline business model,
64 Post contains images OPNLguy : Good Lord; another logical Wright post! As you said, we'll see....
65 Cjpark : The WA shielded WN from competition at DAL which allowed it to turn DAL into the most highly concentrated single carrier hub in the nation. Are you s
66 ScottB : These two are basically the same thing; landing fees and rents at DFW are higher because of all the infrastructure which offers little benefit to Sou
67 Tornado82 : As you can see, I already answered that when OPNL said the same thing. Speaking of an emotional immature response. In additional costs over the lifes
68 HPLASOps : Like I said earlier, you pay less for an airport, you should get less. WN soothsayers out there who claim that it's God's destiny to have Wright repe
69 ScottB : Mmmmmmkay, pointing out something emblematic of the wasteful spending that goes on at DFW is "emotional" and "immature." But that's not what you said
70 OPNLguy : So, the City of Dallas Aviation folks are supposed to go on a wild spending spree just so the airport's costs can go up enough to warrant a landing f
71 HPLASOps : No, just come up with a law that allows profits from DAL to be invested in other community goods.
72 Tornado82 : Do you realize what an infintesimally small precentage of the DFW operating budget that terrazzo that you all use as your rallying point is? WTF is i
73 Post contains images OPNLguy : Well, good luck with that...
74 HPLASOps : And good luck with that quest for repeal, you'll need it.
75 DALNeighbor : Based on what you know right now, how likely do you think it is that in the next 2 years 1) Wright will be altered in any additional manner and 2) Wr
76 HPLASOps : Based on the fact that WN will keep poking congressmen with a stick until they change, I'd say #1 will be a 100% (just cause they'll have to do somet
77 SCCutler : Well, change that first sentence around to avoid possible confusion over its proper meaning: WN was an intrastate carrier that was not subject to CAB
78 TxAgKuwait : >>Amusing irony and, perhaps, payback: the New Orleans service was often flown in a 727 (yes, a 727) in Southwest colors but operated by Braniff fligh
79 DALNeighbor : For the Wright supporters that claim the DAL Master Plan (32 gates, 250 flights) is null and void if Wright is repealed, do you believe the DAL Master
80 Tornado82 : It has nothing to do with number of states. It has to do with how many flights SWA, JetBlue, Airtran, Frontier, or anyone else will want to run from
81 DALNeighbor : So you're saying the DAL Master Plan was never a valid document because any combination of airlines could operate flights that would put DAL over 250
82 Tornado82 : The DAL Master Plan is about as valid as the "agreement" of decades ago that closed DAL to commercial traffic. We all see how Southwest and the city
83 HPLASOps : The floodgates will have been opened. Should Wright go away, every airport WN currently services will be climbing over each other to get a flight int
84 Cjpark : WN only supports the Master Plan only as a tool to limit competition at DAL. However FAA competition regulations make the Master Plan un enforcable.
85 DALNeighbor : That "agreement" was specifically worded in the 1968 bond ordinances as phasing out commercial service frow Greater Southwestern, Redbird, Meacham, a
86 JayDavis : Folks, you might as well get used to it. Wright is WRONG and it WILL go away. No matter how much Feagan, Cox and the AA people want it to stay......
87 AAtakeMeAway : OMG, you did?! That's awesome! What were you doing with WN at the time?
88 Post contains images SCCutler : I had heard and believed that the cabin crew was WN, and the cockpit was BN; i am suitably chastened and will correct my databank on the topic. South
89 Cjpark : "In the year 2000, the Dallas City Council commissioned the Love Field Master Plan. DMJM Aviation, a nationally and internationally recognized aviati
90 Stirling : Sorry, cut/copy/paste is down....so I cannot quote anyone. So we're saying that the FAA competition regulations will not allow DAL limits to be enforc
91 Steeler83 : If they did agree to that, then wouldn't that negate the whole purpose of having this battle against WN, therefore nullifying the whole purpose of th
92 Tornado82 : The early-run, non XR-ed ERJ's that American Eagle has aren't going to make it to many cities of significance from DAL without taking penalties in th
93 DALNeighbor : Did you ever stop and think, pun intended, about why they specifically called out the Wright/Shelby Amendments as an assumption in the DAL Master Pla
94 Post contains images Steeler83 : Tornado, I said "unless something else catches my attention" I still read the thread but did not see anything there that caught my eye. I dunno, I do
95 SPREE34 : OMG! American!!? What about the children? What about the families?What about.......
96 Post contains images Steeler83 : Sure, throw in PIT or PHL with 3x daily service using a 752 into this mix How will humanity go on, what kind of situation will society be in... blah
97 Tornado82 : Good, none was meant either. Just a light-hearted joke from fellow yinzer to yinzer, lol.
98 Post contains images Steeler83 : And even if I am incorrect in my judgement, it always makes me feel better when someone makes a joke within their correction that everyone can have a
99 JayDavis : What I can NEVER understand is that AA even wants to serve Love Field........ You don't see CO going over to HOU because WN has a large presence at HO
100 Tornado82 : Umm.... you don't?? Chicagoland/Midway: American: 2x S80 - DFW 2x Eagle ERJ - DFW United: 3x Ted A320 - DEN 3x Mesa CRJ-700 - IAD Also Northwest, Del
101 JayDavis : For your "esteemed" information Tornado82, I actually live right under the flight path to one of the "landing" runways on the east side of DFW Airport
102 Tornado82 : I ask you again... What plane does AA have in THAT size and range class other than the Super 80s that they can use to appease DAL? Here's a hint, the
103 OPNLguy : HOU Ops Agent...
104 Cjpark : Maybe you should stop and read for a change before you pop off. For your benefit I have posted a paragraph from the Master Plan Executive Summary. Wh
105 SCCutler : Inclusion of a recital of the parties' presumptions at the time of the report in no way creates a conditional repudiation by any of the parties. A cl
106 ScottB : Of course...but the terminal cost twice as much as a slightly more capable facility in Houston (Terminal E + new FIS building) that was built for hal
107 Tornado82 : Why? Where would they be going from DAL requiring the legs of a 738?
108 Cjpark : Then why did they even bother to sign the statement? Do you remember that Southwest was an active participant in the effort build the Master Plan. Th
109 Post contains images OPNLguy : ..as opposed to some of the pro-Wright folks', which need to be taken with a 5-pound salt lick...
110 NateDAL : I saw a kid going door to door this morning in University Park passing out "Stop and Think" fliers. I guess they think that irrational fear sells here
111 Post contains links DALNeighbor : Here is the setlovefree.com response to your myth: http://www.setlovefree.org/myths.html Myth: Southwest is trying to fight the Love Field Master Pla
112 Stirling : That's all fine and good, and I for one, know it to be fact, especially the part of picking up trash, as I have a friend at DALHQ who has told me suc
113 Tornado82 : Only $16 million in taxes, that's a disgrace, my employer who is 1/30th the size of WN pays nearly that. And Southwest runs the ATC for the Dallas ar
114 Post contains images OPNLguy : I'm waiting for one of them to show up on TV or the Stop-and-Think website claiming that they almost got bonked in head by the tire of a departing 73
115 Tornado82 : I see the word "We" in the propaganda written by Southwest Airlines. We infers THEY control it.
116 OPNLguy : The inference is in your own interpretation, and one that doesn't make much sense in the context of your post. The statement said: "We select our run
117 Tornado82 : Nice spin, but why would that have anything to do with weather then? There's no weather condition on Earth that requires you to use a shorter choice
118 Post contains links OPNLguy : No spin, just operational realities. As I said earlier, 13L has better (lower) ILS minimums than does 13R. What that means is that when fog (a weathe
119 Tornado82 : For maybe... 1% of all landings? But Southwest will milk the fact that they try to act like the savior to all of the area, even though they're hosing
120 Cjpark : That is too ironic to be believed. Even our Mayor and City Council understand that without the WA the Master Plan is flawed. We Pro-Wrighters also kn
121 Par13del : Ok, I have read most of the WA threads and finally found one comment which matches my sentiments - KabAir -, namely WN leaving the metroplex. WN's bus
122 Tornado82 : Yes. They're succeeding in a MUCH more congested PHL, and an expensive PIT and DEN. All 3 of which are major operations for other airlines (US, US, a
123 Post contains images OPNLguy : Percentages have zippo to with it. You made a made an incorrect and inaccurate statement ("There's no weather condition on Earth that requires you to
124 Tornado82 : Do your 737's use 4L and 13L at MDW? No you use the longer ones. How about 26 @ PHL? Therefore, using that as a bragging point to the media/masses on
125 OPNLguy : On rare occasion, when they're working on the bullet (intersection of 13C-31C and 04R-22L). I don't think we have data for 26 at PHL. I answered your
126 OPNLguy : Let's leave AA out of it for a second, since they don't have anything to with how Southwest selects runways at Love... How is the statement Southwest
127 Tornado82 : Interesting, "Airline operations: RYS 13R/31L; 13L/31R & 04L/22R NOT AVBL FOR ACR OPNS WITH MORE THAN 30 PSGR SEATS." And of course you shouldn't use
128 Par13del : Tornado82, as I stated they have stations at DEN and PHL, I guess i should have stated the question differently or asked it this way. If DAL is closed
129 Post contains links Cjpark : Southwest Airlines in discussions with DFW said it could operate profitably from DFWAirport. http://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/st...ries/2005/09/26/s
130 Par13del : Thanks for the link Cjpark, when they made that statement, were they talking about opening a station at DFW or closing down DAL and moving everything
131 OPNLguy : Yes, that's the "normal" restriction. When something "abnormal" comes up (like work on the aformentioned 04R-22L intersection with 13C-31C), they "wa
132 Tornado82 : Ok OPNL, so it's true that Southwest uses the less populated runway (by choice) when the weather is above 3/4 mile and not below RVR 1800 when the who
133 Post contains images OPNLguy : There's just no pleasing you...
134 Tornado82 : What was so difficult or wrong about my question? I don't see a problem with it.
135 SCCutler : As the old saw goes, you can lead a horse to water... A recital of a presumption is exactly that, a recital. No more, no less. While it is entertaini
136 Tornado82 : Claiming victory before the race is won in any way, shape, or form is a sign of weakness. Look at Sadaam Hussein a few years back for example.
137 Vegasplanes : Welcome to the West, taxes in general run much lower out here (AZ, NV, NM, TX, ) than in high(er) tax places like PA, MI, IL, NY, MA etc. It all depe
138 SCCutler : No claim of "Victory" here, sport, just a comment on misuse of evidence.
139 Cjpark : I guess that is why I never get picked for juries I can differentiate between bullsh*t and horsesh*t!
140 OPNLguy : And it's being pointed out that doing so keeps the noise (from our aircraft) on the runway furthest from them. Both can be good things...they're not
141 Floorrunner : I'd like to comment on the Love Field master plan. It is just that, a PLAN. Plans are made when a set of conditions exist. If those conditions change,
142 Post contains links DALNeighbor : Ft. Worth's best and brightest agree with removing the Wright Amendment and opening up Love Field. After all, Ft. Worth residents are held hostage wit
143 Apodino : These two sentences, right out of Cox's own mouth, contradict each other. Cox is agreeing that the metroplex should decide what service is offered, a
144 Cjpark : Everything in that post that follows the statement below are my words. The Wright Amendment while it specifically deals with DAL only the courts have
145 Post contains links OPNLguy : Back to the original topic, check out Holly Hegeman's commentary on AA's "Stop and Think" effort... http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43
146 Steeler83 : His company sure is resting atop of a fairly large mountain of green... I am happy that he feels that way about the W.A. He's not afraid of it and he
147 Stirling : If AA cared about the community, they'd be using the quieter aircraft in their fleet at Love Field. And why is "caring" even a part of this discussio
148 OPNLguy : One of the reasons I think that AA shot themselves in the foot with this latest effort. If the noise/polution are all so terrible, then why are they
149 Tornado82 : Come on now OPNL, you're a dispatcher. You know the difference in mission profiles between a 738 and a Super 80. It would be like asking why doesn't
150 OPNLguy : No, it wouldn't, since using a 738 on DAL-MCI or DAL-STL isn't a matter of pushing the aircraft beyond its limits like your example ISP-BUR on a 735
151 Tornado82 : I know that a 735 can't make it that far, it was hypothetically showing how far out of a mission profile your AA 738 on 90 minute runs is. The point
152 Cjpark : You are missing the point and your constant comments about who is flying the loudest jets sounds like a play ground argument between fighting childre
153 DALNeighbor : CJ, nobody is buying your ruse. It does make a difference who is flying what because the motives are different. AA wants more noise to stir up the ne
154 Tornado82 : AA wants the plane that is most economical on the route. With their fleet, it's the Super 80. USAirways isn't running 737's to LAX from PIT, they're
155 DALNeighbor : I'm not saying it doesn't fit their mission profile. I'm saying they are using the noisiest plane in the fleet at DAL. I'm also telling you how it is
156 Post contains links Stirling : Bravo! The only person with any right to complain is the guy who moved to the neighborhood in 1925. And maybe, just maybe, those one or two people th
157 Tornado82 : So what? The plane is well within all federal regulations, and fully legal for use. So what? It's their God-given, federally granted right. It's the
158 Stirling : It all boils down to AA fueling the issue when they themselves are contributing to the problem, not helping it. Yes, Love Field sees some very loud a
159 Post contains links NateDAL : I guess that uncertainty about the Wright Amendment isn't discouraging developers around DAL as AA says. http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...4bus.A
160 OPNLguy : That'd be Airspace and Procedures, either at the TRACON or Ft. Worth ARTCC...
161 MattRB : What would be the CASM/RASM differential between operating the S80s vs the 738s the DAL-MCI route?
162 ScottB : Here are three: DFW-DEN, 557 nm, 4 daily 738's DFW-IAH, 195 nm, 1 daily 738 DFW-TUL, 206 nm, 1 daily 738 In any case, it strikes me as beyond ludicro
163 Tornado82 : Probably alot, the 738's have more seats, if the seats are empty, it's a loss. DEN -> Likely operational aspects based on the hot/high @ DEN IAH -> L
164 MattRB : Well, how full are the S80s running on average? I'm looking for some hard numbers here to crunch.. load factor and configuration for these flights wo
165 Stirling : 5 738s a day between MIA and TPA. 178nm. 3 738s a day between MIA and MSY. 586nm. (DAL-MCI/STL 400/474nms respectively) OK, but then why is it they h
166 Tornado82 : That's the Miami hub. Miami is a 738 hub. If you had DAL-MIA, they might be 738's. As for DEN, probably a capacity issue then just like IAH. And if t
167 Post contains links Cjpark : First of all it is not my ruse. Let me ask you a couple of questions. 1. Just how many people outside of this forum are able to tell the type of jet
168 OPNLguy : Of course, they could have done an even greater thing by by showing everyone just how much quieter an airport could be by choosing a quieter aircraft
169 OPNLguy : I would hasten to add that pattern altitudes don't allow alot of flexibility, since there's a limited distance in which to descend. The current visua
170 Tornado82 : Why? That then creates precedent that all noise-sensitive airports will want followed. Suddenly, AA needs to buy 200 new 738's.
171 Ejmmsu : The issue is not MD-80's at DAL in and of itself. The issue is that AA supports stop-and-think.org. We all know its all bogus anyway. The poor childr
172 ScottB : It seems that AMR Corporation is the one claiming that so many people are concerned about noise, not the residents of Dallas. If memory serves, a sig
173 OPNLguy : No, just use a few of the ones they already have...
174 Steeler83 : That's what I would think myself, especially the business travelers there. If a repeal of the W.A. would allow them to save a few hundred bucks to go
175 DALNeighbor : Are you asserting that noise from aircraft using DAL stops at the airport perimeter? You obviously have no familiarity with living next to DAL. No, t
176 Tornado82 : Cathay and Mandarin? Wow, how do they get around Wright and WN can't?
177 Stirling : Well I'd imagine either cargo or maitenance of some kind. A lot of things happen at Love Field that have NOTHING to do with Southwest Airlines.
178 Tornado82 : Obviously you missed the sarcasm.
179 OPNLguy : I think he assumed CX and AE were the codes for Continental Express and American Eagle, respectively...
180 DALNeighbor : Sorry, I'll spell it out since I'm not as versed in my codes. Continental Express and American Eagle.
181 Post contains links Cjpark : Not at all just trying to understand how you represent yourself to be a neighbor of the airport. Anyone can look at a map Dalwannabeneighbor. Google
182 OPNLguy : How about you too? You said sometime back that you lived in one area, but then didn't really, so where are you? Generally speaking, without a specifi
183 Tismfu : I think CJ's point is that a poster or posters who might assert that they are affected by all of the negatives of DAL and use that to say, "See, even
184 OPNLguy : So were his. He previously claimed to live in the Walnut Hill/Midway area, but later recanted, so nobody knows whether he's really in a location with
185 Tismfu : Well, Walnut and Midway isn't really affected by noise... was he claiming that it was?
186 Cjpark : I live in Dallas near White Rock Lake close near the area of the Northeast Police substation and Army Reserve Center. You being the expert dispatcher
187 DALNeighbor : Based on my proximity to the airport and more specifically what is overhead. Yes my home is West of Marsh and East of Harry Hines. Yes it is South of
188 Steeler83 : I suppose that the Mad Dogs will only add to the noise levels; as someone said before, they're the noisiest planes in AA's fleet. I suppose that the
189 DALNeighbor : My neighborhood is directly under approach and departure paths, borders Webb Chapel and Walnut Hill and is less than 2 miles from the airport. You ca
190 OPNLguy : If that's the case, then aircraft on visual approaches are at least 3,000 feet and maybe a tad more. As I mentioned in earlier posts, aircraft on vis
191 Goingboeing : That's about where my parents lived...Lake Highlands. And yes, I have on occassion seen SWA jets fly over. I've seen SWA jets fly over White Rock whe
192 Cjpark : My neighborhood is full of newly weds and nearly deads. (Young Couples and Elderly mostly widowed women). We fall somewhere in the middle. The elderl
193 Post contains links Tornado82 : http://flightaware.com/live/flight/USC371 http://flightaware.com/live/flight/DHL526 http://flightaware.com/live/flight/ABX804 http://flightaware.com/l
194 Steeler83 : I see that you are an engineer. With whom do you work? What is your detailed occupation and how it relates to DAL and the W.A.? I am just curious rea
195 Goingboeing : Okay how 'bout this. I used to live in an apartment complex at Lombardy Lane and Webbs Chapel Extension. Take a look at google maps and you should se
196 OPNLguy : You are quite correct. The first of the -300s didn't arrive until Nov and Dec of 1984, and it was all -200s prior to that. Hush-kitting had to be com
197 DALNeighbor : Yes, your motives are selfish in nature as you are benefited by a AA hub that completely dominates the area and provides as much nonstop service as p
198 Tornado82 : The vast majority of North Texans, and anywhere in the nation for that matter, does NOT fly, and therefore does NOT care. Sorry, it's a truth. Far le
199 SPREE34 : Hey OP, time for "Thread Tree". I'm betting when mid-June rolls around a W.A. thread will go 200 in one day.
200 Tornado82 : With no pictures in it this thread isn't loading too slowly, why bother?
201 DALNeighbor : I never said that they were flying. You don't have to fly to benefit from an improved economy.
202 Cjpark : WebsChappel and Walnut Hill is still ¾ of a mile from the straight line approach to the runway. You are still a good 3 miles from the Northern Most
203 Tornado82 : If you put enough of a loss of traffic on AA by operating at that financially superior dump, and AA cuts flights/destinations/internationals... you'v
204 Tismfu : On top of that, many of the areas northwest of the airport, which are some of the most affected by noise, are poorer neighborhoods where even Southwe
205 OPNLguy : Please don't pretend that you know what I do, or do not believe. You don't. True, it was a business decision, and naturally it was Southwest only. So
206 Cjpark : Sorry about that I was only trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.
207 Goingboeing : Why not use that wonderful tool to find 3353 Lombardy Lane in Dallas. That's the apartment complex I lived in. The noise, even with non hushkitted 73
208 DALNeighbor : I'll lay it out nice and easy for you. No Wright Amendment=more competition= lower fares=greater demand @ DFW & DAL=increased business activity acros
209 Steeler83 : I can see your argument here; you're essentially saying that if WN moves in, or if the WA is lifted and WN opens up, then AA is toast. Each airline a
210 Tornado82 : It's not just his. If international service starts to deteriorate (say moved to an enlarged ORD), Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex's economy is hurt. Jobs
211 Post contains images NateDAL : That is such nonsense. Just like how DFW/AA claimed that adding Missouri to the Wright-exempt states required the cancelling flights to Lima.
212 Tornado82 : Why? If connectivity at DFW drops because DAL/WN are taking pax away... there is less feed for other flights/int'l. With less feed, there are less fl
213 Cjpark : We could have had all of those benefits years ago except for WN refuses to compete. Go cry us a river. No consider this, your area of town has always
214 Steeler83 : Your argument here is basically that WN would cripple AA's performance at its fortress hub in DFW. I honestly do not think this will happen. AA would
215 Steeler83 : That was because the leading carrier was in financial jeopordy after 9-11. I have exhausted this argument before, do I really have to post it again??
216 NateDAL : AA breaking up their hub and moving flights to DAL is their own fault. As for taking away connectivity. If WN were to move into an unrestricted DAL,
217 OPNLguy : I've started a part-3 since this is up above 215 posts now...
218 Steeler83 : I forgot about that. That is true, AA did that to prove a point and not for economic gain. They've actually poised themselves to lose money on routes
219 ScottB : Sure...except that Southwest has a much larger operation at MDW now and no restrictions (aside from available gates) on growth there. With Southwest,
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