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Int'l Flights To/From RDU  
User currently offlineWidebodysrule From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 15 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 8 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4705 times:

Why isn't it that United or Lufthansa have a flt to from rdu-fra?   

[Edited 2006-03-30 08:30:25]

30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 26
Reply 1, posted (8 years 8 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4644 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting Widebodysrule (Thread starter):
Why isn't it that United or Lufthansa have a flt to from rdu-fra?

Why should there be a direct non-stop flight between RDU-FRA-RDU if there is not sufficient demand for such a service? United has a hub at IAD (224 miles away from RDU) and there are at least 6x daily United Express flights (CR7) between RDU-IAD-RDU that can feed pax onto-and from at least 5x daily services (United and LH) between IAD-FRA-IAD.


Rgds

SA7700



When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5434 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (8 years 8 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4611 times:

Quoting Widebodysrule (Thread starter):
Why isn't it that United or Lufthansa have a flt to from rdu-fra?

It might be an idea to ask your question - giving detailed reasoning about why you are asking it.

A one line question like that could easily be asked for hundreds or airlines and airports in the US, or anywhere in the world.



Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently onlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6784 posts, RR: 17
Reply 3, posted (8 years 8 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4501 times:

Quoting Widebodysrule (Thread starter):
Why isn't it that United or Lufthansa have a flt to from rdu-fra?

My first question is.. United? Of all airlines? United doesn't even have mainline to RDU.. let alone an international flight.

My statement is that RDU wouldn't be able to support the contemporary equipment utilized for such an internantional flight. There just isn't the numbers to support 763/777/330 service to FRA...

However, should an airline decide to utilize Boeings new 737-700ER aircraft, then RDU-FRA could be feasible and definitely profitable considering the business traffic that would utilize the service..



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineRAFVC10 From Spain, joined Sep 2005, 1980 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (8 years 8 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 4480 times:
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But AA is flying all year an LGW-RDU flight with 777 equipment. If the american airlines uses this aircraft, the loads, supposing, are high.

Why not to prove to start new flights from Raleigh to Germany??



El dia que los gilipollas vuelen, no podremos ver la luz del sol!
User currently offlineWomack17 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 490 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (8 years 8 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4430 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting RAFVC10 (Reply 4):
But AA is flying all year an LGW-RDU flight with 777 equipment. If the american airlines uses this aircraft, the loads, supposing, are high.

Why not to prove to start new flights from Raleigh to Germany??

Even though the RDU-LGW service does adequate business, it would not be in existence if it weren't for the corporate subsidies that guarantee that AA will make a profit on the route. I love RDU and am glad the service exists, but the facts are the facts.



Oh how I miss Midway Airlines. A class act right to then end.
User currently offlineCltguy From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 598 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 8 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4351 times:

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 1):
United has a hub at IAD (224 miles away from RDU) and there are at least 6x daily United Express flights (CR7) between RDU-IAD-RDU that can feed pax onto-and from at least 5x daily services (United and LH) between IAD-FRA-IAD.

And don't forget that RDU is only 120 miles away from CLT which has service to both FRA and MUC on Star Alliance carriers US and LH.


User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 26
Reply 7, posted (8 years 8 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4304 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting Cltguy (Reply 6):
And don't forget that RDU is only 120 miles away from CLT which has service to both FRA and MUC on Star Alliance carriers US and LH.

Thanks for that Cltguy, with your input I thus rest my case.  Smile


Rgds

SA7700



When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
User currently offlineFlightShadow From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1039 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (8 years 8 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4292 times:

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 1):
5x daily services (United and LH) between IAD-FRA-IAD.

5X from ORD and 5X from IAD?!  eyepopping 



"When the tide goes out, you can tell who was skinnydipping."
User currently offlineWidebodysrule From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 8 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4235 times:

simple enough that there is hundreds of conx aday in rdu to fra and most either military or lh senators and that in itself is enough for at least 1 flt aday.....right  Wink

User currently offlineEwmahle From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4163 times:

You also have to concider, and this has been stated before about the
RDU-LGW flight, is that AA operates that flight and makes a lot of its profit from it with cargo alone, not always passenger loads.


User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5434 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4152 times:

Quoting Womack17 (Reply 5):
Even though the RDU-LGW service does adequate business, it would not be in existence if it weren't for the corporate subsidies that guarantee that AA will make a profit on the route. I love RDU and am glad the service exists, but the facts are the facts.

Correct. The AA flight to LGW is not there because there is demand from your 'average' Raleigh area passenger market. It's only there because of one (or more) RDU companies guarantee a certain number of seats with employees that travel to Europe. These pax would connect in CLT, PHL etc., or even drive, if their company didn't have that deal with AA. Certainly AA wouldn't be doing it otherwise.


Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4136 times:

In the subject of International flights to/from RDU, RDU does get quite a number of Latinamerican destinations via ATL, any Latinamerican airline must get a good O/D traffic of passengers connecting @ their hub to/from RDU before even think of flying to RDU.
CM E190 does have the range, but had the U.S. Armed Forces remained in Panama, such a PTY-RDU flight (even thirce weekly) could have been attractive; There are major U.S. Defense sites in North Carolina.



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineRookinla From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 307 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4129 times:

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 12):
CM E190 does have the range, but had the U.S. Armed Forces remained in Panama, such a PTY-RDU flight (even thirce weekly) could have been attractive; There are major U.S. Defense sites in North Carolina.

Maybe but I think that there are several cities that would be up first even considering the above statement. No doubt that CLT would be a higher priority in North Carolina. CM could probably get some feed from the US hub here to make it worthwhile.


User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4087 times:

Quoting Rookinla (Reply 13):
CM could probably get some feed from the US hub here to make it worthwhile.

Isn't CM in Skyteam though?


User currently offlineRookinla From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 307 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4075 times:

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 14):
Isn't CM in Skyteam though?

They are in fact an associate member of Skyteam. CLT may or may not be on their short list of future detinations. I was just making an example of the potential traffic for them at CLT versus that of RDU. They will probably look at hooking up with Skyteam hubs and focus cities during their expansion. I wouldn't think that ATL would be high on their priority list because of DL. But CLT could be interesting though...CM couldn't survive there purely on O/D, but they could probably "creatively borrow" decent feed from the US Airways hub. Probably won't happen but it's interesting to think about...


User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4072 times:

Quoting Rookinla (Reply 15):
CM couldn't survive there purely on O/D, but they could probably "creatively borrow" decent feed from the US Airways hub.

The thing with "borrowing" from the US hub is that US will likely be charging their fares as if the pax were O&D-ing to CLT, which are pretty high. Then till CM adds their fare on top of that, no pax can afford to do that when DL/ATL aren't that much longer of a flight, and there's still more connectivity in Atlanta than Charlotte. Just ask most residents of the Central Time zone who USAirways is.


User currently offlineBoeingFever777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 409 posts, RR: 53
Reply 17, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4022 times:

AA has a contract with GlaxoSmithKline to ferry their employees to/from England to their Triangle Park HQ in North Carolina.


Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
User currently onlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6784 posts, RR: 17
Reply 18, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4012 times:

Hahahaha...

I definitely don't think that RDU will see CM any time soon. If anything south of the borders, I would think we would see AM/MX or perhaps one of their regional airlines.

Interesting fact, though.. that RDU actually does have a somewhat decent (uhmm.. sort of) O&D to Panama. Why? I"m not sure.. but we do.. But I think a flight to somewhere in Mexico would probably be much, MUCH more useful.

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 17):
AA has a contract with GlaxoSmithKline to ferry their employees to/from England to their Triangle Park HQ in North Carolina.

So here is my qeustion.. AA is contemplating axing that route. Which airline do you think would be willing to pick up the subsidized route? Perhaps BA could pick it up from the British side? I dont' think any US airline would have the spare 777.. unless DL got one of there's from off order for the route.. any thoughts?



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 26
Reply 19, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4000 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting FlightShadow (Reply 8):
5X from ORD and 5X from IAD?!

Take April 30, 2006 as a hypothetical date. From IAD-FRA the following flights are generated via Amadeus and Worldspan:

LH417 16h20-06h05 (A343)
UA916 17h13-07h10 (B744)
LH419 18h10-07h55 (B744)
UA952 18h38-09h10 (B763)
UA932 21h43-11h45 (B777)


Take May 21, 2006; FRA-IAD:

LH416 10h25-13h15 (A343)
UA953 11h00-13h59 (B763)
UA917 12h20-14h49 (B744)
LH418 13h25-15h55 (B744)
UA933 17h00-19h34 (B777)


There is 4x daily services between ORD-FRA-ORD on LH and UA. The 5th daily service is on AA.


Rgds

SA7700



When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5434 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3957 times:

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 18):
So here is my qeustion.. AA is contemplating axing that route. Which airline do you think would be willing to pick up the subsidized route? Perhaps BA could pick it up from the British side? I dont' think any US airline would have the spare 777.. unless DL got one of there's from off order for the route.. any thoughts?

My question is why are they considering stopping it?
Presumably because it's not making money? In which case why would we expect somebody else to pick it up? If it's making money, then why stop it?

Personally I think those lucky people will have to connect in CLT, PHL etc. like everbody else, or SmithKline buy a shuttle aircraft it there demand is so high.

IMO, if companies such as these, just simply have to ship so many people to/from London (enough to justify a daily B777!!!), then they have their business model wrong  Wink


Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3949 times:

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 18):
I definitely don't think that RDU will see CM any time soon....
Interesting fact, though.. that RDU actually does have a somewhat decent (uhmm.. sort of) O&D to Panama. Why? I"m not sure.. but we do.. But I think a flight to somewhere in Mexico would probably be much, MUCH more useful.

Decent O&D traffic between RDU and PTY! I would have agreed with that before mid 1999, but now? I don't have enough info to agree or disagree on that.
The only way CM in RDU could work - if ever - is if
(1) RDU does have a good O&D traffic to CM destinations (but MEX via PTY is silly),
(2) those passengers don't wish to travel via ATL, IAD or MIA to those destinations avoiding the Port-of-Entry hassle at those airports, and
(3) don't mind that's a once a day only service.
But to many passengers disapproval, it would surely have to be on a E190.
I would add that this criteria would also apply if CM is to fly to MSY, just change IAD for IAH.



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently onlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6784 posts, RR: 17
Reply 22, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3947 times:

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 20):
IMO, if companies such as these, just simply have to ship so many people to/from London (enough to justify a daily B777!!!), then they have their business model wrong

They not only ship people, they ship cargo.. True the flight doesn't make as much money now as it did earlier, but I think the reason for that is because prices have risen. I'm pretty sure the subsidy amount has not decreased and though the cargo may have decreased some, I don't think it has decreased much. And with the glut of new International companies coming into RDU, I can see the cargo rebounding.

But it would be great is GSK had a hanger beside SAS's with a 777 or 767 in it. That would be cool.. with the big orange GSK pill on it.. Big grin



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5434 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3939 times:

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 22):
They not only ship people, they ship cargo.. True the flight doesn't make as much money now as it did earlier, but I think the reason for that is because prices have risen. I'm pretty sure the subsidy amount has not decreased and though the cargo may have decreased some, I don't think it has decreased much. And with the glut of new International companies coming into RDU, I can see the cargo rebounding.

Perhaps, but again that doesn't justify a daily passenger B777 (obviosuly since AA may stop it). It might justify an extra Fedex/UPS flight.


Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently onlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6784 posts, RR: 17
Reply 24, posted (8 years 8 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3896 times:

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 23):
Perhaps, but again that doesn't justify a daily passenger B777 (obviosuly since AA may stop it). It might justify an extra Fedex/UPS flight.

Okay okay.. here ya go.

the Subsidy used to basically pay for the front of the plane. I think now, that the subsidy pays for most of it, with the change due to higher fuel cost and the such. The cargo basically pays for the rest. AA also uses the RDU flight as a back-up for their other LON flights. So therefore both above and below the floor are a part of the deal.

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 21):
Decent O&D traffic between RDU and PTY! I would have agreed with that before mid 1999, but now? I don't have enough info to agree or disagree on that.

Beats me.. I checked the BTS data and it looked okay. I mean, it's not like 1,000/day or even 500/day.. Hell, it might not even be 200/day.. but it's more than most other Central/South American destinations (save probably Mexico).

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 21):
but MEX via PTY is silly

No no.. I wasn't saying PTY via Mex. I wasn't even saying PTY. I wasn't even saying Copa..

I was saying either AM/MX regional airline or perhaps one of the start-ups could do a Mexico run..



Aiming High and going far..
25 Post contains images ERJ170 : On another Note.. Actual Terminal Construction starts today! 2 years and counting before utilization... I'm heading to RDU probably tomorrow to look a
26 2travel2know : What a pleasant surprise, RDU could probably support a daily E190 flight to CM's Hub of The Americas!
27 ERJ170 : LOL.. like I said.. I think RDU would do better with a flight to somewhere in Mexico first and foremost..
28 FXramper : What kind of pax numbers are we gonna need to see at RDU to give them a international flight from LH or UA to FRA? I know the AA flight is charging G
29 2travel2know : Yes, to CUN.
30 MAH4546 : No, they most likely, make that most definitley, could not.
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