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Could Airbus Lose The Qatar A350 Order?  
User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1596 posts, RR: 18
Posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8761 times:

http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=4534

"Industry sources have suggested that the GECAS and ILFC orders contain caveats requiring Airbus to meet certain order and customer milestones."

"Key launch customer Qatar Airways, which announced a commitment in Paris to order 60 A350 family aircraft (ATWOnline, June 14, 2005), still has not inked the deal and some suggest that its order is conditional on Emirates signing up as well."

Why would they put a condition based on another airlines purchase? Very odd...


Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
46 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30535 posts, RR: 84
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8736 times:
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I believe QR is committed to the A350 for at least two reasons, and probably more.

First, they appear to want to remain an all-Airbus fleet and look to cancel their 773ER MoU in favor of the A340-600HGW (and in some irony, they are going to take EK's deferred planes). So an A350 is going to fit them better from a crew perspective.

Also, since they want 60 planes, the 787 is not going to be an option for them until around 2012, and should SQ and/or EK commit to the 787 in large quantities, they may be looking at 2013 or later for deliveries.


User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1596 posts, RR: 18
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8709 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
First, they appear to want to remain an all-Airbus fleet

I understand this... but why is the A350 order on condition of what Emirates does? If you want to remain all Airbus you would do so no matter what. I wonder if Qatar also wants the 787-10.

Hmm... is Boeing going to hijak the A350 with the 787-10?

This would be a tremendous blow!



Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8709 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
A340-600HGW (and in some irony, they are going to take EK's deferred planes)



Perhaps this is the link to the EK order referred to in the original post??



One Nation Under God
User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8709 times:

Quoting BoeingBus (Thread starter):
Why would they put a condition based on another airlines purchase? Very odd..



Concern about low residual values down the road. They're trying to satisfy customer demand for early delivery slots, while simultaeously protecting against being saddled with an albatross.


User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 38
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 8653 times:

The one year anniversary of the order announcement is coming up in under three months. It will be interesting to see what the status of QR's A350 and 777 orders are at that time.


ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 8632 times:

According to Akbar Al Baker Qatar's Chief Executive in a interview in the March 2006 issue of Airline Business magazine, Qatar has a letter on intent to purchase 60 A350's. But they have not signed a firm order because Airbus is not ready yet.

Al Baker said " We have not signed the purchase agreement with Airbus because they have not crystallized the specification of the airplane and we also have requirements for the performance which they have not come back to us with. The aircraft is still changing, but we expect Airbus to come up with the solution soon."

It seems that Qatar wants to buy the A350 but Airbus is not in the position to sell, at least at the time the article was written. Now GECAS and ILFC are putting pressure on Airbus to redesign A350, which may cause an even further delay.


User currently offlineGeorgiabill From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 577 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 8595 times:
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QR has no reason not to buy the A350. They believe it is the best plane for them as they continue their growth. Just continuing on their experience flying Airbus equipment is a economic savings.

User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 38
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 8528 times:

Quoting Georgiabill (Reply 7):
QR has no reason not to buy the A350. They believe it is the best plane for them as they continue their growth. Just continuing on their experience flying Airbus equipment is a economic savings.

If you plan on buying 60 planes from a single family, there significantly less advantage in having commonality with the rest of the fleet.



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12331 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 8303 times:

Ah, the shifting sands of these Middle Eastern aircraft deals!


Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineTigerotor77W From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 160 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8104 times:

Quoting BoeingBus (Thread starter):
"Key launch customer Qatar Airways, which announced a commitment in Paris to order 60 A350 family aircraft (ATWOnline, June 14, 2005), still has not inked the deal and some suggest that its order is conditional on Emirates signing up as well."

I know you quoted a media source, so I'm not arguing with YOU, but I also tend to think nothing of it. The 777s haven't been firmed, so why should the A350s? In fact, we've seen that Qatar may actually go for the A346s instead... so once that deal is finalized, I'd bet that's when the A350 goes through as well.


User currently offline9252fly From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1390 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 7801 times:

Does anyone know if QR is holding some of the initial delivery slots with refundable deposits for the 787 and has yet to release them? There must be still a number of airlines that still hold those slots and have yet to place a firm order or drop them in return for a refund of the deposit.

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30535 posts, RR: 84
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 7786 times:
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Quoting 9252fly (Reply 11):
Does anyone know if QR is holding some of the initial delivery slots with refundable deposits for the 787 and has yet to release them?

When QR chose the A350, they released their 60 787 slots as they could do so without penalty.

Boeing then held them in reserve for QF, which formally took them when they signed the order yesterday.


User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 7750 times:

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 8):

If you plan on buying 60 planes from a single family, there significantly less advantage in having commonality with the rest of the fleet.

That assumes the rest of the fleet is also at least 50 to 60 aircraft per type.


User currently offline9252fly From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1390 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 7714 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 12):
When QR chose the A350, they released their 60 787 slots as they could do so without penalty.

Boeing then held them in reserve for QF, which formally took them when they signed the order yesterday.

Very interesting! It seems QR have boxed themselves into a corner with Airbus and have lost the opportunity to acquire the 787 with early delivery slots. If they are still mulling the idea of ordering the 787,they have made a mistake in giving up those slots,then again,if they've decided to order the A350 because they don't want the 787,what's taking them so long to firm their order for the A350?


User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12374 posts, RR: 47
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 7687 times:
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Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
and look to cancel their 773ER MoU


They never signed an MOU with Boeing, so somewhat difficult to cancel it no?

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 5):
It will be interesting to see what the status of QR's A350 and 777 orders are at that time.

They signed nothing for 777s. They have signed an MOU for precisely 60 A350s however. Make of that what you will. wink 



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 7638 times:

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 8):
If you plan on buying 60 planes from a single family, there significantly less advantage in having commonality with the rest of the fleet.

Yes I think the commonality agrument begins to dissapear around a 30 strong fleet. Other factors are importamt like flexability (The 3 sizes of 787 should bring great flexability in a large fleet)

[Edited 2006-03-30 21:52:50]

User currently offline787engineer From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 572 posts, RR: 15
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 7607 times:

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 14):

Very interesting! It seems QR have boxed themselves into a corner with Airbus and have lost the opportunity to acquire the 787 with early delivery slots. If they are still mulling the idea of ordering the 787,they have made a mistake in giving up those slots,then again,if they've decided to order the A350 because they don't want the 787,what's taking them so long to firm their order for the A350?

They may be waiting to see how much Boeing will increase production rate. Boeing is seriously looking into this to help accomodate more customers, many of which are starting back off and are willing to wait since they can't get their new 787 until 2010-2011 anyways.


User currently offlineEI321 From Iraq, joined Jul 2009, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 7607 times:

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 14):
Very interesting! It seems QR have boxed themselves into a corner with Airbus and have lost the opportunity to acquire the 787 with early delivery slots.

Well they did hold slots on the 787 and then turned it down so its not like they got themselves in this situation by accident.


User currently offlineLumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 20
Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 7568 times:

Quoting EI321 (Reply 18):
Well they did hold slots on the 787 and then turned it down so its not like they got themselves in this situation by accident.

IMO, you're correct. Mr. Al Baker has no intention of renouncing this order to go "hat in hand" to Boeing. Could be this alleged linkage to EK was leaked in order to turn the screws more on price and other concessions.



"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 7568 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 12):

Boeing then held them in reserve for QF

For QF, for SQ, for BA, for LH, et al.


User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 23
Reply 21, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 6462 times:

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 14):
they have made a mistake in giving up those slots,then again,if they've decided to order the A350 because they don't want the 787,what's taking them so long to firm their order for the A350?

QR has given up those slots because they considered the A350 the better aircraft for their needs. If they would have gone with the 787, this would have been the mistake, not the other way around.

As for your question, why it takes them so long. Who better than Mr. Al Baker himself would know the answer?

Quoting 474218 (Reply 6):
Al Baker said " We have not signed the purchase agreement with Airbus because they have not crystallized the specification of the airplane and we also have requirements for the performance which they have not come back to us with. The aircraft is still changing, but we expect Airbus to come up with the solution soon."



Quoting BoeingBus (Thread starter):
"Key launch customer Qatar Airways, which announced a commitment in Paris to order 60 A350 family aircraft (ATWOnline, June 14, 2005), still has not inked the deal and some suggest that its order is conditional on Emirates signing up as well."

Why would they put a condition based on another airlines purchase? Very odd...

Some suggest, is very vague and looks more like speculation than anything else. EK's large 777 purchase didn't make QR commiting to theirs either.



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User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 6327 times:

Quoting Georgiabill (Reply 7):
QR has no reason not to buy the A350. They believe it is the best plane for them as they continue their growth. Just continuing on their experience flying Airbus equipment is a economic savings.

I am not so sure QR agrees the A350 is the best for them, because as Al Baker said, "we also have requirements for performance which they have not come back with." So Airbus has not yet agreed they they will meet QR's requirements.


User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 6308 times:

Quoting Manni (Reply 21):
Quoting BoeingBus (Thread starter):
"Key launch customer Qatar Airways, which announced a commitment in Paris to order 60 A350 family aircraft (ATWOnline, June 14, 2005), still has not inked the deal and some suggest that its order is conditional on Emirates signing up as well."

Why would they put a condition based on another airlines purchase? Very odd...

Some suggest, is very vague and looks more like speculation than anything else. EK's large 777 purchase didn't make QR commiting to theirs either.

I'm not sure I understand your point, I thought the gravamen of the article was about:

Quoting BoeingBus (Thread starter):
"Industry sources have suggested that the GECAS and ILFC orders contain caveats requiring Airbus to meet certain order and customer milestones."


I'm a little surprised nobody has picked up on this item at the end of the article so far:

"Sources in London told ATWOnline yesterday that Udvar-Hazy's comments in Orlando may have been promoted by those within Airbus who desire an all-new aircraft to combat not only the Dreamliner but the 777, which eclipsed the A340 family last year."

[Edited 2006-03-31 04:03:07]

User currently offlineDalecary From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 6211 times:

From my understanding QR are very interested in the 787-10. If EK order the -10(as expected), then I wouldn't be surprised to see QR follow. They gave up early slots on the 788, when the -10 didn't exist. It is a totally different ballgame now. I'm sure QR would have taken notes from the comments of Udvar-Hazy this week!!!

25 Post contains images Stitch : Then they cancelled the Press Release they issued last year in Paris stating they wanted 20 777-300ERs.
26 Post contains images SKA380 : Hmmm.... wishful thinking on some people on here's part... Leif
27 SONICDANCE : If, just if, A350 changes the spec to include a larger fuselage and extend the family from the current A350-800 all the way to A340-600, then it will
28 Zvezda : If Boeing were producing a B787-11X and Airbus an A350 with a larger cross section the length of the A340-600 with similar CASM, then the number of W
29 WINGS : Really? From what I understand they are exactly were they want to be. What makes you think this? Just because they haven't signed yet? Simple. They a
30 Thorben : I really like QR. First they are about to order the 787, then they dump that for the A350. In compensation they go for the 777 (probably mainly becaus
31 Post contains images Stitch : If operating an all-Airbus fleet, and perhaps doing so at "favorable" (not "too cheap", not "below cost", not "dumped") rates, gives QR what they feel
32 Post contains images 787engineer : Well there's really no chance of getting a larger cross section unless they want to postpone EIS for another 1-2 years (basically it isn't going to h
33 AirFrnt : Change the order of the sentences and you will get a good handle on this: We also have requirements for the performance which they have not come back
34 Thorben : They won't do that. OK It matters because the friends of the US tell their state-run carriers to buy Boeing (see Air India). I like those that buy th
35 Zvezda : If all airlines in the world bought the better airplane, without regard to political pressure, then both Airbus and Boeing would have to work harder
36 LTU932 : Perhaps. I still recall EK is very interested in the A340-600E, so maybe that could also be an influencing factor. I read somewhere that QR is also t
37 Thorben : I read they are going to make an A332 freighter. I doubt they would make that one AND an A345 freighter. My guess was always that QR only went for th
38 BoomBoom : Wasn't the design frozen in January? " target=_blank>http://businessweek.com/globalbiz/co...8.htm
39 Zvezda : No chance. The A340-500 is not even remotely suitable to being a freighter. It's OEW is way too high. The A330-200 would make a good freighter.
40 FlyingHippo : Is IC independent airline? Didn't they order a bunch of Airbuses last year?
41 LTU932 : No, they're also state owned. I believe it took the Indian Parliament many years to actually approve the order.
42 Thorben : Even the desire of the Indians to get along with the USA (which they did when Bush was there recently) was not strong enough to make them go for the
43 NorCal : haha, that is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read on here from either side. I would like to you to prove for example how the A340 is b
44 Behramjee : Not really if QR decides to lease B 787s from leasing companies who have ordered the B 787s such as ILFC who have ordered 20 of the type. QR can rese
45 BoomBoom : What if they need more than a few?
46 FlyingHippo : So... Are you saying that while Air India (State owned) ordered Boeing because of politics, IC (own by the same state) ordered Airbus because they wa
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