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AA NRT 777 Scheduling Question  
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11712 posts, RR: 62
Posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4637 times:

I have a question about how AA schedules its 777s into and out of Tokyo Narita (NRT) from DFW, ORD, JFK, LAX and SJC.

Using this summer's schedule, all of AA's inbound arrivals from its five aformentioned U.S. gateways to Tokyo arrive between 13:20 (AA175 from DFW) and 16:00 (AA169 from LAX). All of AA's outbound departures back to the U.S. leave Tokyo between 16:05 (AA170 to LAX) and 18:25 (AA154 to ORD). All, that is, except for one. Flight AA176 departs NRT at 12:15 for DFW.

My question is -- although I think I already know the answer -- how does AA schedule its 777s in and out of NRT to make a 12:15 departure possible when AA's first inbound arrival is not until 13:20 in the afternoon? I assume that a plane RONs at NRT, presumably the latest arrival (AA169 from LAX) and then departs about 20 hours later for DFW. However, this seems like a pretty sizeable waste of resources, but then again, I do know that a lot of JAL inbound connections off redeyes arriving in NRT between 06:00-08:00 connect to AA's 12:15 departure to DFW.

Any guidance would be appreciated. Thank you in advance.

23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25536 posts, RR: 50
Reply 1, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4617 times:

Indeed the 777 sits around NRT for that extended ground time.

When AA applied for additional slots to operate the 2nd DFW flight, the noonish departure was all AA was able to acquire.

A few years back with DOT approval several US airlines (including cargo carriers) managed to swap Narita slots around to each ones benefit, so its certainly possible AA might be able to improve upon its slot holdings one day.

The Narita slot issue is another reason AA never began its planned and approved HNL-NRT service. The carrier simply could not manage to acquire the the right combination of arrival and departure slots to make the service viable without forcing it so mess with its other flights.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineMakeMinesLAX From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 566 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4617 times:

Someone in AA ops might be able to provide the exact turn-around scheme, but I know generally that such an extended ground time is likely for two reasons:

1) The inbound leg is the last portion of a heavy utilization cycle for the aircraft (think of what transpires before DFW/ORD/JFK/LAX/SJC-NRT)
2) The outbound leg has to wait a while to avoid curfews or to accomodate a more favorable departure and/or arrival time

Case two is the reason there are so many QF 744s on the ground at LAX during the day.

[Edited 2006-03-30 23:10:51]

User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4593 times:

Just a curiousity question: Is NRT the only slot restricted airport in Japan?

I have always found Narita airport's entire history to be curiously un-Japanese - what should be most people's first impression of a very modern and ultra-efficient country is a slot controlled, one runway, out-of-town airport that for many years did not have any fast trains connecting it with the Tokyo metro area or the transportation systems of Japan.

I understand now that a train runs out to NRT as well as express buses; however it is sad to see this airport still slot restricted and not really any opportunity to change that situation.

Could an island in Tokyo bay be flattened for an airport a lá ICN or HKG?



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21534 posts, RR: 59
Reply 4, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4554 times:

It's also interesting that some 777s only spend 2 hours at NRT, other's spend 5. They must have a reason for this relating to various checks, cargo ops, etc.

When I was there on AA, our DFW bound flight arrived from SJC 2 hours before we were scheduled to leave. But another 777 sat around the whole 4 hours we were in the Admiral's Club, and was due to depart after our flight.

And that DFW bound 777 was the same exact one we arrived on 8 days earlier, though it didn't arrive from DFW that day. I recognized the scratch on my LCD in seat 3A from the first segment.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently onlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 5, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4497 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
It's also interesting that some 777s only spend 2 hours at NRT, other's spend 5. They must have a reason for this relating to various checks, cargo ops, etc.

When I was there on AA, our DFW bound flight arrived from SJC 2 hours before we were scheduled to leave. But another 777 sat around the whole 4 hours we were in the Admiral's Club, and was due to depart after our flight.

And that DFW bound 777 was the same exact one we arrived on 8 days earlier, though it didn't arrive from DFW that day. I recognized the scratch on my LCD in seat 3A from the first segment.

speaking of which, how is their trans-pacific service? I plan on flying SJC-NRT late summer/early fall.... biggrin ...



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineCjpark From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1256 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4448 times:

AA has six flights daily to NRT. One of the planes would have to overnight at NRT to maintain the schedule for the early flight to Dallas. The last two times through NRT for me we have boarded the plane by bus. That is the plane has been in the freight area and not the gate so freight operations might be a consideration. Another thing to consider by having a plane overnight at NRT it would also give AA a spare aircraft to use in case one of the 5 departures has mechanical problems.


"Any airline that wants to serve the [region] can go to DFW today and fly anywhere they want," WN spokesman Ed Stewart
User currently offlineJet-lagged From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 874 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4431 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 3):
I understand now that a train runs out to NRT as well as express buses; however it is sad to see this airport still slot restricted and not really any opportunity to change that situation.

Could an island in Tokyo bay be flattened for an airport a l$B!&(BICN or HKG?

I think the only islands there, in Odaiba, are large developments of 'reclaimed' land. There has been talk of building a floating airport. A runway section was even built and tested.

Haneda is at the water's edge, and a new runway is being built out in the water.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21534 posts, RR: 59
Reply 8, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4431 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 5):
speaking of which, how is their trans-pacific service? I plan on flying SJC-NRT late summer/early fall....

I was in F. So, it was really nice. But I was in the old coffin style cabin, so the Flagship Suite would have been nicer. I know this, as I got to take that on the same trip on the LAX-DFW leg. Spoiled me. Big grin It was a mileage ticket, and I was taking my Mom to Japan, so we left out of DFW so that she could connect from IAH more easily than from SJC. LAX had been postponed for a year when I flew.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineTundra767 From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2005, 430 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4397 times:

I have seen the AA 777 overnight in NRT. Kind of stimped me at first but makes sense for the early DFW departure. I have to say AA offers a pretty good F service to NRT. Would be nice to see the suites on that one.

User currently onlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 10, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4387 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
I was in F. So, it was really nice. But I was in the old coffin style cabin, so the Flagship Suite would have been nicer. I know this, as I got to take that on the same trip on the LAX-DFW leg. Spoiled me.  biggrin  It was a mileage ticket, and I was taking my Mom to Japan, so we left out of DFW so that she could connect from IAH more easily than from SJC. LAX had been postponed for a year when I flew.

interesting..thanks for the info!....I'm going to be going in cattle class, but I will certainly make sure I get the emergency exit row as I always do for my ORD/JFK-LHR flights...can't beat it for price/value..... biggrin 

that being said, their new Flagship Suite does look nice, maybe I should give that a try soon... scratchchin 



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineThebry From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 375 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4369 times:
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Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 5):
speaking of which, how is their trans-pacific service? I plan on flying SJC-NRT late summer/early fall....  ...

I fly this route about once a quarter, and it's very nice. I'm usually in first or business though. My company buys me a business class ticket, and I typically upgrade to first if I've accumulated enough mileage to do so.

Anyway, the service is really good. Not as good as my recent trip in first (Business Premier) to AKL on NZ's new 777 from San Francisco -- that was absolutely spectacular!


User currently offlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 2961 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4351 times:

HND is also slot-controlled.
ITM has capacity restraint thus slot-controlled too, though nowhere near operational limits.
Technically, NRT is no where near operational limits but NAA or Transport Ministry just likes to keep it conservative.

Also if any one of the six inbounds are a few hours late, the late arriving aircraft can be used for the next day's rotation thus not inconvenicing one of the outbound flights that day.

Have any of you ever gone to DFW or ORD? I can only vouch for ORD but there are always numerous 767s & 777s idle on the AA hanger ramps.

Also having a noon and early evening departure for DFW spreads out the two frequencies as the window of opportunity to travel on eastbound legs is larger than the one going westbound.


User currently onlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 13, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4344 times:

Quoting Thebry (Reply 11):
I fly this route about once a quarter, and it's very nice. I'm usually in first or business though. My company buys me a business class ticket, and I typically upgrade to first if I've accumulated enough mileage to do so.

thanks for the info...I'm quite excited about flying that route.....being an AA Platinum Member and only living 10 minutes away from SJC, its quite easy for me too... bigthumbsup 

Quoting Thebry (Reply 11):
Anyway, the service is really good. Not as good as my recent trip in first (Business Premier) to AKL on NZ's new 777 from San Francisco -- that was absolutely spectacular!

I would like to try their service....I was @ SFO when the first 777-200ER arrived on 19L...



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineLevg79 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 994 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4307 times:

Does anyone have any idea how much it costs AA to overnight that plane in NRT? Should be not that cheap...

Leo.



A mile of runway takes you to the world. A mile of highway takes you a mile.
User currently offlineReyes27 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4298 times:

When I flew DFW-NRT in coach it was nice, better than the NRT-PEK I connected on UA. Though this is when they had more room throughout coach campaign.

User currently offlineVincewy From Taiwan, joined Oct 2005, 767 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4085 times:

Given the slot constraint situation, shouldn't AA upgrade all NRT flights to 773 or even 744/748? I suppose if one route gets upgraded, the rest will have to get same aircrafts with the aforementioned schedules.

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 3):
Could an island in Tokyo bay be flattened for an airport a l$B!&(BICN or HKG?

One of my first posts in this forum was related to the expansion of HND, the airport, can, in principal, reclaim lands from adjacent water, there're also talks of opening some international flights into HND, unlike NRT, HND can operate 24 hours. Some of the Japanese members here explained that the current slot control is partially intentional, limited expansion can protect JL and NH from cheap foreign carriers.

Last question, why did they expand KIX? Filling the area further from land can cause the airport to sink even quicker.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21534 posts, RR: 59
Reply 17, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4073 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 10):
that being said, their new Flagship Suite does look nice, maybe I should give that a try soon...

It's actually old, but they are converting the whole fleet to it. That said, it is the most functional suite out there, even if the materials aren't as luxurious as some other carriers. The amount of personal space and the options for sitting, reclining, working, eating, viewing and sleeping are not matched by any carrier at this time.

We'll have to see what the A380 brings.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently onlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 18, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4064 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 17):
It's actually old, but they are converting the whole fleet to it. That said, it is the most functional suite out there, even if the materials aren't as luxurious as some other carriers. The amount of personal space and the options for sitting, reclining, working, eating, viewing and sleeping are not matched by any carrier at this time.

there was a weblink on A.net a little while ago showing Flagship Suite..still looked good enough for me.....so far, my longest flight has been a 15 flight on EK's cramped A345 JFK-DXB-JFK..I figured if I can deal with that, I'll be ok!

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 17):
We'll have to see what the A380 brings.

overkill...



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25536 posts, RR: 50
Reply 19, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4039 times:

Quoting Levg79 (Reply 14):
Does anyone have any idea how much it costs AA to overnight that plane in NRT?

From a list that I have prepared in late 2004, the landing fee for a 777 is near $7000 while parking fee is approx $150 per hour when converted from Japanese Yen according to todays exchange rates.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21534 posts, RR: 59
Reply 20, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4013 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 18):
still looked good enough for me.

Me too. But some people complain that other carriers use fine woods and leathers and more pleasing colors, while the AA is more "austere" in it's appointments, and sort of a boring grey/blue scheme. That is lacks a mini-bar or personal vanity is not something I care about. I gladly trade that for a swivel seat, a full desk as well as a big dining table, a movable LCD instead of a larger, but further away and fixed screen, etc.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 19):
From a list that I have prepared in late 2004, the landing fee for a 777 is near $7000 while parking fee is approx $150 per hour when converted from Japanese Yen according to todays exchange rates.

And of course, if sitting for 18 hours, it's not earning revenue. That cost you quote is a little less than 1 F seat to NRT revenue.

One would hope to avoid lost revenue of letting the plane sit, they do some checks on it and other routine maintenance.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently onlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 21, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4001 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 20):
Me too. But some people complain that other carriers use fine woods and leathers and more pleasing colors, while the AA is more "austere" in it's appointments, and sort of a boring grey/blue scheme. That is lacks a mini-bar or personal vanity is not something I care about. I gladly trade that for a swivel seat, a full desk as well as a big dining table, a movable LCD instead of a larger, but further away and fixed screen, etc.

the woods, and leathers, etc. don't mean a lot to me...if I want all that, I'll fly on a personal jet thank you very much... Smile

If AA were smart, they would install "connexion by boeing" on all their 777-200IGW's.......they have 45 of them, with 2 more on the way...at a $1million/plane (IIRC, but I'm not 100% certain), it wouldnt' be a massive investment, and they could do it slowly....

it would certainly be a "value-added" feature... AA already has powerports, and since many people on AA already fly with laptops....it might pay for itself quickly....since all of AA's 777's are long haul, I would get the either the 3 hour block time (if its an evening transatlantic flight) or the 24 time.....its not too bad considering what one gets..........

I'm actually going to write to AA about this....



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineChautauquasaab From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 102 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3879 times:

I have also travelled to/from NRT, KIX and NGO on AA to ORD, DFW, and SJC. Do their 777's have the overhead crew rest areas in the nose and tail areas?

User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4021 posts, RR: 13
Reply 23, posted (8 years 6 months 6 days ago) and read 3831 times:

I also noticed that the early DFW departure requires an aircraft to stay overnight. It is likely very good for schedule robustness. If one of the inbound aircraft needs maintenance, they can be swapped around in the afternoon without causing cancellations.

With the other Dallas departure at 6 pm it also gives travelers real options as opposed to US bound UA and NW schedule that is all later in the afternoon.



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