Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
SN Brussels Airlines 31/03 Press Release Out!  
User currently offlineBrightCedars From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 1286 posts, RR: 2
Posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 9007 times:

Worthy of a new topic without misleading words in the title (no pun intended).

SN Brussels Airlines has issued its press release on the merger between SN Brussels Airlines and Virgin Express.

Most interesting part of the release if you ask me is the following:

Quote:
Network

The current network will be further optimised with greater emphasis being placed on the major economic centres of Europe.

The strategic plan also envisages an expansion of the medium and long haul fleets - the latter to extend long haul destinations to continents other than Africa. In conjunction with this, projects are currently also under way to participate in local intra Africa airlines’ ventures, in order to give greater support to certain existing routes.

Negotiations with aircraft lessors and manufacturers, to allow this expansion, were started some time ago.

Comment welcome!


I want the European Union flag on airliners.net!
33 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePlaneGuy27 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 314 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 8989 times:

We need competition on the IAD-BRU route. Come back SN.

User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4265 posts, RR: 34
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 8989 times:

I guess they will just expand and optimize their codeshares to the US and Asia. The biggest lessons Sabena learned is that they, with their relative high cost (labor) structure can never make a profit on flights to the US or Bangkok/Tokyo kind of Asia destinations where Y class returns start around 300 resp. 500 euro.
Pity they didn't tell anything of fleet updates. Will they use Virgins clapped out 737-300s to Barcelona, Madrid, London kind of European main destinations for long?



nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlineKa From Switzerland, joined Apr 2000, 655 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 8939 times:

The 2 ex-SN A332 flying for LH (D-AIMD/ME) at the moment until end of Su06 are no longer listed for lease....

Are they heading back to SN??

KA.



Keep smiling - you might be on Radar!
User currently offlineBestWestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 6956 posts, RR: 57
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 8896 times:

Quoting BrightCedars (Thread starter):
greater emphasis being placed on the major economic centres of Europe.

Is this a move away from Sun Sea Sand routes towards major European business destinations?

Is this a move away from regional cities in the UK?



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineBrightCedars From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 1286 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 8862 times:

I sincerely hope that expansion of the medium haul fleet (and network) will be meaning the opening of the Beirut station in a not too distant future!


I want the European Union flag on airliners.net!
User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 23
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 8862 times:

I wonder wich of todays modern longhaul aircraft seat only 220 people. Could that be a A332 in a very comfortable layout?

As for destinations outside Europe and other than Africa, I very much doubt SN is going to burn her money on US flights. I'd put a euro on Montreal and a codeshare with Hainan to a Chinese destination other than the one Hainan intends to fly from to BRU, NRT in codeshare with ANA or JAL could be a possibility aswell IMO.



SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32191 posts, RR: 72
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 8536 times:

Wouldn't be shocked to see them flying to Boston and/or Miami seeing their strong cooperation with American Airlines that is bound to grow.


a.
User currently offlineCRGsFuture From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 536 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 8477 times:

Or JFK either, want to see SN back. I hope to go to BRU in the next 5 years, how good is SN's product, better then Sabena's?


Flying you to your destination; your girlfriend to her dreams.
User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4915 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 8416 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 7):
Wouldn't be shocked to see them flying to Boston and/or Miami seeing their strong cooperation with American Airlines that is bound to grow.

Are AA considering those routes themselves?



Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
User currently offlinePanAm747LHR From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 232 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 8336 times:

If they start US operations, I wouldn't be surprised to see A) DFW opened up again, or B) a codeshare from DFW with AA, given their already strong cooperation with AA. According to people here in Dallas, SN enjoyed very good loads in and out of DFW for the short time that they operated here.

Nick


User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8492 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 8310 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting PanAm747LHR (Reply 10):
SN enjoyed very good loads in and out of DFW for the short time that they operated here.

loads are one thing , yields are another ... does anyone have any idea whether the service generated money or cost money ?



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineJambo From Tanzania, joined Dec 2004, 247 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 8085 times:

local intra Africa airlines’ ventures -- what about Air Tanzania?

User currently offlineBrightCedars From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 1286 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 8064 times:

If it is the States I believe Boston was one profitable routes at some point. But maybe operating an AA 757 daily would be better than anything larger or less frequent - even in an eventually better SN layout.

Miami has been talked about a lot but I cannot really see that destination support daily 767 sized flights to/from BRU whether by AA or SN unless it becomes the main and only gateway to Central and Latin America, contradicting recent agreements with Air Madrid. DFW would make sense with the same provisions, adding West Coast connections.

Maybe sending their own metal to JFK while still codesharing with AA replacing the current service or to complement the current daily return with a later in the day or even evening time second frequency.

Flying to Narita would be cool whoever the codeshare partner is, if any. It was also one yielding destination and a good feed for African services. But yields have lowered on Japan routes in the last years and there are now shorter, more comfortable ways to go from Japan to Africa that SN cannot compete with e.g. Emirates.

And I'm really hoping to see Beirut introduced as a medium haul destination!



I want the European Union flag on airliners.net!
User currently offlineBAW716 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 2026 posts, RR: 27
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 7994 times:

BrightCedars:
Questions:
1) Who is the surviving brand? SN Brussels? (I assume this since they are talking about long haul expansion and I can't believe that the Virgin license will be granted for long haul operations that may compete with VS).

2) To expand long haul, they are going to need more aircraft. Will the aircraft leased to LH come back and/or will SN acquire additional aircraft to handle this expansion?

3) I find it interesting that they were so vague about where they intended to expand beyond "their flights to Africa". Far East is obvious, but how will SN differentiate itself from the many other carriers that fly to these long haul destinations?

Thanks
baw716



David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
User currently offlineBrightCedars From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 1286 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 7917 times:

Quoting BAW716 (Reply 14):
1) Who is the surviving brand? SN Brussels? (I assume this since they are talking about long haul expansion and I can't believe that the Virgin license will be granted for long haul operations that may compete with VS).

A whole new brand will be rolled out at the end of the Summer. SN Brussels Airlines and Virgin Express will cease to exist. Speculations are open as far as the new brand is concerned: Sabena? SNV? Who knows?!

Quoting BAW716 (Reply 14):
2) To expand long haul, they are going to need more aircraft. Will the aircraft leased to LH come back and/or will SN acquire additional aircraft to handle this expansion?

We don't know. They state they have been in touch with leasors and manufacturers. My heart hopes Boeing will support them with sweet prices to regain what once was a prime customer. Will there be a 737-829 or even a 787-829? I guess an order for 767-329s at this point would help Boeing keep the 767 line open in light of possible future military orders. Don't know if Boeing would reuse Sabena's customer code though. Are there known precedents?

Quoting BAW716 (Reply 14):
3) I find it interesting that they were so vague about where they intended to expand beyond "their flights to Africa". Far East is obvious, but how will SN differentiate itself from the many other carriers that fly to these long haul destinations?

I'm no insider so I'm sorry I cannot answer that question. Not that I think an insider would answer either, for different motivations.

Thanks for taking a look at my RR  Wink



I want the European Union flag on airliners.net!
User currently offlineCRGsFuture From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 536 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 7896 times:

Cedars with the type of route network SN has, wouldn't a 764 make more sense?


Flying you to your destination; your girlfriend to her dreams.
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 7832 times:

This is gonna be interesting........a new combined brand will be introduced, over the past years, the SN Brussels has done rather well and pax seem to like and respect the product, an amazing turnaround from the Sabena days. I really do not expect SN Brussels to walk away from this progress, and I guess that the new combined product and image will emphasize the SN Brussels brand and phase out the Virgin brand. Its clear that the combined SN Brussels wants to compete in both the higher yeild biz markets and the low fare markets, so it will be tricky, but the managment of SN has done suprisingly well in the past years, so they should be able to pull this off.

As for new routes, again and again, SN Brussels management has stated that it wants to stay away from the crowded and highly competitive transatlantic market, and that the code share arrangement with AA was fine for its needs. SN Brussels will look beyond Africa for longhaul, my guess would be new routes to the Gulf, India, China and Asia........all growing markets with increased demand.....there is little or no nonstop service current from BRU to these key business destinations. Opportunities in flying to India, China, etc would probably be far more financially interesting that fighting it out with Delta, America and Continental on the BRU-NYC route.

And, the fleet.....additional longer haul aircraft will be needed, my guess is that SN Brussels will look for additional A330s for its near-term needs....likely A332s will be added to gain range for new destinations. Remember, the SN A330s are early build -light- shorter range variants of the A333. In the future, we are very likely to see a 787 vs A350 competition at the newly branded SN Brussels. As for the 130-160 pax market, anything can happen.....A32X or 737NG, a case can be made for both but I have a feeling that we may see a big surprise with a 737NG order....Sabena did love their 737s and Virgin has done quite well with the type. At some point, the RJ/146 fleet will need replacement......the E175/195 family looks like the ideal choice, but time will tell.

In any case, the SN Brussels story has been a remarkable one, they have survived and done well against all of the odds.....I hope that their success continues into the future.


User currently offlineBrightCedars From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 1286 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 7724 times:

Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 16):
Cedars with the type of route network SN has, wouldn't a 764 make more sense?

I do think so. And indeed if one orders it, Boeing will build it. But wouldn't it have a really bad reselling value? This is the kind of aircraft you'd buy only if you plan to stick with it for it's entire life. Also, range is an issue with the 767-400ER and it's legs are too short for many Asian and even African destinations.

DutchJet, I'm confident that anything happening on the Atlantic front would be in very close cooperation with AA. If SN metal has to be put on a route, it will be part of an agreement with AA.

Service to China, India and eventually Japan maybe on the agenda. But it will be a very tough call unless supported by one of the major alliances. LH has big plans for India, so does BA, and AFKL are not far behind. Same in China, look at AFKL's presence. Same for Japan, so many daily nonstop flights from a 300km radius from BRU. As for the Gulf, I don't think they can fight Gulf carriers on their own turf and O&D must be depressing.

This leads me to wonder what will be the future of the new company as far as joining an alliance is concerned. SN Brussels Airlines seems close to British Airways and American Airlines but has been known to codeshare with anyone willing. Will they join oneworld? It doesn't seem like they have much of a choice with AFKL (SkyTeam) at AMS and CDG and LH (Star Alliance) at FRA. BA seems to be the best party, especially as it focuses on O&D out of LHR and may be willing to take a share of the continent's market by using a less restricted airport like BRU, the best located airport to bother AMS, CDG and FRA altogether. One wet dream would be to have BRU as the oneworld continental hub with carriers like CX. HKG is thought to be one of only a few Asian destinations with a good potential for BRU.



I want the European Union flag on airliners.net!
User currently offlineBA From United States of America, joined May 2000, 11151 posts, RR: 59
Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 7136 times:

Quoting BrightCedars (Reply 13):
And I'm really hoping to see Beirut introduced as a medium haul destination!

I'd love that, but I honestly don't see it happening...



"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
User currently offlineBrightCedars From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 1286 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 7068 times:

Quoting BA (Reply 19):
I'd love that, but I honestly don't see it happening...

Come on BA. SN used to fly to BEY. The total yield is not very high because of the lack of business class passengers but a red-eye like they run on BRU-TLV (that one has more premium pax but a lower Y yield) would definitely cost not much and bring in some cash.

Same or higher fare than across the Atlantic, half the distance, utilize an aircraft that would otherwise generate no revenue sleeping on the tarmac at night (not like having to actually dedicate metal), minimum service level common for this kind of operation.

There is at least hope!



I want the European Union flag on airliners.net!
User currently offlineIL96M From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 137 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (8 years 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6679 times:

Quoting BrightCedars (Reply 18):
Also, range is an issue with the 767-400ER and it's legs are too short for many Asian and even African destinations.

Why not just go with the 772?

Thank you,


User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 23
Reply 22, posted (8 years 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 6242 times:

Quoting BrightCedars (Reply 15):
I guess an order for 767-329s at this point would help Boeing keep the 767 line open in light of possible future military orders.

That would b a step back. A 767 with 220 seats including a bussines class section is very tight, SN would also loose out on a lot of cargo, wich the superior A330 would be able to take. Crew would need to be retrained aswell. Depending on the timeframe they plan to introduce the new aircraft I can think of atleast 2 different scenarios.

1) Keep the current widebodys and introduce the smallest 787 if slots are available in 2008.

2) Pull a TAP, and order/lease A332's. The A332 could be configured in a 3 class configuration Busines, premium economy and economy. SN could get them on short notice and when the time is right the A350's can replace these.



SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32191 posts, RR: 72
Reply 23, posted (8 years 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 5075 times:

Quoting BrightCedars (Reply 13):
Miami has been talked about a lot but I cannot really see that destination support daily 767 sized flights to/from BRU whether by AA or S

During the winter, easily filled. During the summer, 5x a week shouldn't be hard. The key is tapping into Miami-Africa traffic to fill the plane with high yielding passengers. Miami is the third largest O&D market between the US and Africa.



a.
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11129 posts, RR: 62
Reply 24, posted (8 years 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4423 times:

One side comment: while I think SN is a good airline, with a great hub operation in BRU, I wish they would change the name. My idea (not sure if it's already taken): European Airways. SN is based in BRU, the home base of the E.U., and 'European' would give it a nice cache across the continent and especially in the U.S., where few people have heard of 'SN Brussels Airlines.'

Quoting PanAm747LHR (Reply 10):
I wouldn't be surprised to see A) DFW opened up again, or B) a codeshare from DFW with AA, given their already strong cooperation with AA.

I, too, would not be surprised to see a restart of the BRU-DFW route, althought I also would not be surprised to see it last only a short time. While it is true that connections over DFW and BRU would be excellent, I am not quite sure if the market can support it. If SN downsizes the route from the A330 it flew around 2000 to a 767 this time around, though, I think it actually could work.

Quoting PanAm747LHR (Reply 10):
According to people here in Dallas, SN enjoyed very good loads in and out of DFW for the short time that they operated here.

From my recollection, the SN flight BRU-DFW-BRU did do fairly well, but this was pre-9/11.

Quoting BrightCedars (Reply 13):
But maybe operating an AA 757 daily would be better than anything larger or less frequent - even in an eventually better SN layout.

I think an AA 757 on BOS-BRU would be a more realistic size aircraft for the market than SN flying a 767.


25 Dutchjet : I hate to disagree, but DFW-BRU is a very difficult route: AA flew it with their metal (762s I believe) in the mid 1990s and then SN flew it with A33
26 MAH4546 : I agree, the issue is yields. Miami's strong yielding European traffic is concentrated on southern Europe - Madrid, Milan, and Paris especially - and
27 Commavia : I could be mistaken, but I don't think AA ever flew DFW-BRU. I think it was just ORD-BRU, and then JFK-BRU in the early 1990s, which then returned in
28 Dutchjet : Yep, AA did fly DFW-BRU with their own metal for one or two seasons back in the mid 1990s.......at one point they had 3 flights per day out of BRU: O
29 BA0242 : What's about Latin America? I think there could be a market for SN to countries like Mexico or Brazil (destinations like MEX, CUN, GIG or GRU). Partic
30 Dutchjet : There could be opportunities for SN in Latin America, as you said, Sabena served MEX at one time and other European carriers do especially well with
31 Commavia : I pulled old AA timetables from the early 1990s, and sure enough, right you were, AA 163 operated BRU-DFW for the summer season 1993. My apologies.
32 Dutchjet : Apologies - hahaha - I just happened to know about the AA BRU-DFW flight because I fly have flown in and out of BRU on a regular basis for about 15 y
33 LipeGIG : Vasp was not the best as you said, but the demand Brazil-Europe has improved a lot since 1990s. If SN can offer a wide range of connections to other
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
SN Brussels Airlines Press Conference Today posted Thu Sep 1 2005 14:20:48 by BrightCedars
Rebranding SN Brussels Airlines posted Sun Sep 3 2006 11:30:06 by Sndp
What Future For SN Brussels Airlines? posted Mon May 29 2006 12:45:25 by BrightCedars
SN Brussels Airlines Revamps In-flight Product posted Sun May 28 2006 21:19:33 by SN-A330
SN Brussels Airlines Privilege WAP/SMS Bonus Scam? posted Thu May 18 2006 12:18:11 by BrightCedars
Richard Branson @ SN Brussels Airlines Today! posted Fri Feb 17 2006 17:44:23 by SNBA
SN Brussels Airlines - 2006! posted Mon Nov 21 2005 11:56:00 by SNBA
SN Brussels Airlines Codesharing With Air Senegal posted Mon Nov 21 2005 11:21:20 by SNBA
SN Brussels Airlines To Order A380's? posted Tue Oct 11 2005 19:02:34 by SNBA
SN Brussels Airlines Strategy Within Next Months? posted Fri Sep 30 2005 14:12:36 by SNBA