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US Airways Merger Turbulence  
User currently offlineJetBlueAUS From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1145 posts, RR: 8
Posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 9680 times:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06092/678833-28.stm

Even though the US/HP merger seems like it is going slow, they are encountering some turbulence. Unions are clashing and in the article link posted above it explains about a brawl between the two different Unions and that about 22 members were fired, and even two ended up in the Hospital.

Any thoughts?


Not all of us can be heroes, some of us can only stand on the sidewalk and clap as they go by.
94 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineVega From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 9651 times:

Interesting - but Old News.

User currently offlineHawk44 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 759 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 9611 times:

As was said before this is old news and really has nothing to do with the actual merge what it does have to do with is two unions fighting over the possibilty of doubling their union members.

More members equals more money in their pockets.

Hawk44



Never under estimate the power of US
User currently offlineStarCityFlyr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 9465 times:

Considering that most of the baggage handling problems that US has stems from the poor work done in PHL, one might suspect that the America West members may focus on getting the PHL mess cleaned up. The "thug" mentality permiates the PHL airport, so its not surprising that a disturbance occurred. Sure wish US had used BWI or PIT as their hub city in the Northeast.

User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6515 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 9465 times:

Quoting StarCityFlyr (Reply 3):
The "thug" mentality permiates the PHL airport, so its not surprising that a disturbance occurred.

If you think the "thug" mentality is bad at PHL, look at JFK and BOS!! Much worse!!


User currently offlineStarCityFlyr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 9465 times:

Bobnwa...

That's not surprising either. I've not had the opportunity to fly in or out of either BOS or JFK but my experience with PHL tells me it's pretty bad.


User currently offlineATWZW170 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 904 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 9399 times:

Doug Parker was very smart, he told the unions to sort this out themselves without any decision on the company. Fact is that the unions for US Airways remind me of organized crime! You should hear some of the crap they say around PHL.


Success is getting what you want...happiness is liking what you get
User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 7, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 9345 times:

After reading these posts, I called my AW connection and he verified this and other bad union clashes happened. You didn't hear the other stuff. Its going to get worse and more heads will get banged not only in PHL but perhaps in the west. The IAM and Teamsters aren't close to mending the fence yet.
safe  box 



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13430 posts, RR: 100
Reply 8, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 9222 times:
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HP/US had better sort these issues out quick. The unions thinking they can go back to prior givebacks is a pipe dream. No wonder the history of airline mergers has been a history of disasters.

If HP/US doesn't get their act together within 18 months, they'll be too easy of a mark for WN, FL, and B6 to grab market share.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineATWZW170 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 904 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 9215 times:

Why should US/HP get involved with who is going to represent the employee's? Isn't that the job of those who are in the union - wasn't there some sort of merger clause included in a contract.


Success is getting what you want...happiness is liking what you get
User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 9198 times:

Quoting ATWZW170 (Reply 9):
Why should US/HP get involved with who is going to represent the employee's? Isn't that the job of those who are in the union - wasn't there some sort of merger clause included in a contract.

I'm sure US/HP would rather NO unions if they had a say.


User currently offlineSpartanmjf From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 510 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 9198 times:

Quoting StarCityFlyr (Reply 3):
Sure wish US had used BWI or PIT as their hub city in the Northeast.

Amen to that! All you have to do is fly through PHL to see how the US union mentality has damaged that carrier over the past five years.



"Nuts to the man in 21D!"
User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 12, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 9178 times:

Quoting ATWZW170 (Reply 9):
wasn't there some sort of merger clause included in a contract.

Yeah, but thats just it. The prevailing carrier is AW and the people will use their unions, BUT the other unions have a right for an election with their name on a ballet to be the union of choice. The other union has to get signatures on a ballet for a vote. This is the sticky part. The IAM goons are telling their members not to sign to get the Teamsters on a ballet. The Teamster goons are telling the IAM folks sign it or...........
Look who is in the middle? The poor AW mechanic who just wants to go to work and do his thing.
See the problem? It just mightl get bigger and the US Dept of Labor will somehow get involved in the future IF violence escalates.
Unions are in a fair battle here but the goons are screwing it up for all involved.
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineATWZW170 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 904 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 9140 times:

I know this is going to sound very, very bad - please don't take it this way - but the IAM and Teamsters just remind me of the school bully. Always the meat head, kind of common......I'm not being snobby but fighting in a meeting and sending 40 people to the ER just fits that sterotype.


Success is getting what you want...happiness is liking what you get
User currently offlineGSPSPOT From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3096 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 9126 times:

As has been said here earlier, it's just a rotten shame US didn't dump PHL and keep PIT, which most pax preferred, and is less delay-prone anyway....


Finally made it to an airline mecca!
User currently offlineATWZW170 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 904 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 9095 times:

I agree with you....I had to do a four day trip and everything was through PIT...so much better and the agents who work the flights are GREAT! Wonder why PSA doesn't come over here and train the PHL folks.


Success is getting what you want...happiness is liking what you get
User currently offlineSupa7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 9062 times:

The pure connecting hub concept is dead. PIT was the last one (STL another). I don't understand why people think PIT had a chance. It never did. PIT hub was shut down to end the incredibly huge losses associated with it. PHL meanwhile brings in the dollars. I think the hobbyists should launch an airline hub in PIT if they so desire. Have fun.

User currently offlineTornado82 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 9032 times:

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 16):
PHL meanwhile brings in the dollars.

How much money is literally burned away in 45 minute-1 hour taxi lines at PHL every single day at today's fuel prices? And how much revenue is lost by customers who take the competition to avoid going into the mess that is PHL? How much money is lost reaccomodating pax due to misconnects at PHL that wouldn't happen at PIT? How much money is lost on bags that get mishandled or disappear thanks to the incompetent workers at PHL? You can definitely quantify the first number, though USAirways would never admit to it in a financial statement. You can probably NOT quantify the second, as no airline knows the inner thought processes of individuals... I know of at least 2 businesses who stopped all business travel on US because of PHL. The other numbers can be quantified, but once again US would try their hardest not to publish said numbers.

The first step US can take to making PHL worth a damn is a simple one. Fire the great number of incompetent employees there, and start over. Unfortunately, the union won't allow it.

And also, you say "pure connecting hubs can't exist" or whatever... what is CLT?


User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4097 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8983 times:

Quoting StarCityFlyr (Reply 3):
Sure wish US had used BWI or PIT as their hub city in the Northeast.

Too late now, US gave up BWI for dead...when WN showed up, US basically tucked tail and ran the other way. Pathetic.

Quoting GSPSPOT (Reply 14):
As has been said here earlier, it's just a rotten shame US didn't dump PHL and keep PIT, which most pax preferred, and is less delay-prone anyway....

PHL is the 5th largest metropolitan area in the country. That's a huge market to have a nice lock on.

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 16):
The pure connecting hub concept is dead. PIT was the last one (STL another). I don't understand why people think PIT had a chance. It never did.

What defines a pure connecting hub? The Pittsburgh metro area has a larger population than Denver, Cleveland, Cincinnati and Salt Lake City, last I checked 2.5 million people is a real decent O&D market base.
I have to admit I didn't believe it so I checked up on it, I was surprised how big the PIT market is.


User currently offlineSupa7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8914 times:

Tornado82, you are right. PIT is better in many ways. But at the end of the day - including all of the factors you mention - PHL can support a hub and PIT cannot (which is why US pulled out). It simply wasn't worth leasing planes to operate a PIT hub so those planes were returned to their owners during BK. And now PIT has a very appropriate level of service, really nothing to be ashamed of.

Also, a PIT connector hub would compete with DTW/ORD/MSP which are all stronger markets. CLE and CVG, more competition... yuck. Now, PHL fills the connecting hub role on the BOS-SEA or BOS-MCI type flying. PHL will get better, I expect, as HP execs make it their top priority (they do). The new PHL passenger service director is an HP guy. Much baggage system investment has been announced too. So improvements may begin to make PHL into the "jewel" Mr. Parker sees it as.

CLT... it's a largely connecting too, but it's in a sweet spot. Only ATL would challenge CLT. Both share the whole SE USA market. With only 2 hubs in the region, they both do well. Of the regional travel markets, CLT is second best behind ATL (with RDU in third probably).

So it's two pronged, my friend. PIT's situation is not so great. And the idea of leaving PHL's giant market behind is just abhorrent. PHL is a big city and needs to be a hub. If US left (?!), someone else would swoop in. Most likely WN with a 200 flight operation.


User currently offlineTsaord From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8871 times:

What sort of people represent this "thug" mentality people are speaking of?

User currently offlinePanAm330 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2692 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8871 times:

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 16):
The pure connecting hub concept is dead. PIT was the last one (STL another).

Ever heard of Cleveland or Memphis?

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 19):
CLT... it's a largely connecting too, but it's in a sweet spot. Only ATL would challenge CLT. Both share the whole SE USA market. With only 2 hubs in the region, they both do well. Of the regional travel markets, CLT is second best behind ATL (with RDU in third probably).

Again, I will bring up MEM, which also competes (albeit on a much smaller scale than ATL and CLT) in the Southeast.


User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5713 posts, RR: 24
Reply 22, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 8858 times:

Quoting ATWZW170 (Reply 6):
Fact is that the unions for US Airways remind me of organized crime! You should hear some of the crap they say around PHL.

LOL, The Teamsters ARE whats left of organized crime, the IAM, well, they TRY, that's all.

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 7):
The IAM and Teamsters aren't close to mending the fence yet.

LOL, It's like the Italian Mafia and the Irish Mob...good luck with that (no offense to anyone of either descent).

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 12):
Look who is in the middle? The poor AW mechanic who just wants to go to work and do his thing.
See the problem? It just mightl get bigger and the US Dept of Labor will somehow get involved in the future IF violence escalates.
Unions are in a fair battle here but the goons are screwing it up for all involved.

Like I have posted in another thread, There are several groups of law students (mainly in labor/corporate law) that have formed Anti-IAM groups at the UNiv. of Utah and at UCLA I believe it was. I wish them ALL the success in bringing the IAM down.

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 16):
PHL meanwhile brings in the dollars. I think the hobbyists should launch an airline hub in PIT if they so desire. Have fun.

LOL, But I'm too busy launching the airline out of SLC!  bigthumbsup 



Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6515 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8805 times:

Quoting Tsaord (Reply 20):
What sort of people represent this "thug" mentality people are speaking of?

Characteristics of the thug.
1. Ready to solve problems with their fists rather than with words.
2. If the boss or manager ticks you off, slash his tires.
3. If it's not covered by the contact, don't do it.
4. Support the screw up, regardless of how incompetant or dishonest they are.
5. Never inform on a fellow employee even if it involves a capitol crime (murder) in BOS or (hijacking) at JFK.
6. Disrupt by violence any organizing activity by a union other than your own.

I could keep going on, but do you get the picture.


User currently offlineJc2354 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 589 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (8 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8773 times:

I think this is a very interesting quote:

"which has seen its stock rise significantly since the merger and predicts a profit in 2006"



If not now, then when?
25 HPRamper : From what I read and heard, the people involved in this assault (on the IAM side) were not US employees, but literally hired thugs. A throwback to th
26 Tornado82 : "Leave PHL" is not my point. But if you've got someone who wants to fly say MHT-IND. MHT-PHL-IND is pretty far out of the way, and since PHL sucks no
27 Tango-Bravo : Not quite true. Ever heard of Metrojet? In retrospect, US probably would have been better served to do as your revisionist history suggests.
28 Tornado82 : Nothing wrong about it. There stock has risen VERY significantly (like doubling in less than a year) and they are still predicting profit.
29 Vega : One could find 100s of combinations to satisfy their agenda, but ignore the 1000s that do not.
30 Vega : All I can say is that it's refreshing to hear the real logic as to why PHL is and PIT is not - and particularly from someone who does not appear to h
31 Tornado82 : Published Proof? If not you're just supporting your agendas also. There's a little airline called Southwest who trashed the hell out of yields in Phi
32 Luv2fly : I am not sure they thrashed them! As like US they also are in business to make money, and like them or not, they are making money while other airline
33 Post contains images Isitsafenow : I'm predicting I will win the lottery the next two Saturdays in a row. Wall street does not agree with what USAirways brass dreams. I believe the wal
34 Tornado82 : It's their business model, I'm not arguing that. What I'm saying is when US is selling same-week unrestricted r/t's for something like $350 PHL-ORD,
35 Tornado82 : If they're not agreeing, they're still buying up that stock and running up the price of it.
36 MalpensaSFO : When will there be a combined website? When will there be a combined product? When will there be common uniforms?
37 Luv2fly : About the same time as when you keep a user name and or ID longer than I do a gallon of milk - kl777jkf, lhr001 and kahala777!
38 Saab2000 : I am a pretty strong union man, but I have ZERO tolerance for the goon-like mentality of these union tactics. US Airways is living on borrowed time IM
39 Mkirch72 : Actually, Greater Cleveland has 3.2 million (Lorain, Cuyahoga, Lake, Ashtabula, Geauga, Summit, Stark, Portage, Medina Counties). It goes up to 3.8 m
40 Post contains images PHXMKEflyer : From my own experience I can tell you that the situation facing HP and US rampers is messy at BEST. All I keep hearing is rhedorick from both sides, a
41 HPRamper : What about Metrojet? Perhaps I made it sound pretty instantaneous. I'm aware it took a little while, but the truth of the matter is that WN's appeara
42 DTWAGENT : What has this country come to...???? Now we have Unions fight with each other. Childish if you ask me. Fighting is not going to get anyone anywhere fa
43 Luv2fly : Being in Michigan what is truly a Union State just how can you be shocked at this behavior?
44 DTWAGENT : I should not be. But, this kind of stuff has to stop. This not only makes the employees look bad, but the airline to.
45 Flyboyaz : Surprisingly employee morale is up a lot. Of course on the west side we were pretty happy to begin with, not much complaining out of us. I know even i
46 DLPMMM : This has nothing to do with the employees or the company. This is all about the leaders of the unions, their greed, and the disgusting way that they d
47 Flyboyaz : Good point but I don't necessarily agree with it. The unions do not condone behavior like that either. It was basically a select group of employees w
48 Post contains links BishopOfPHL : Another great example of union brilliance in Philadelphia (I could post a few dozen links if anyone wanted, but this one takes the cake). http://www.p
49 DLPMMM : I would beg to differ. These thugs obviously had a vested interest in who would represent the combined employees. The only vested interest they could
50 HPRamper : Actually, I started at around $8.40, due to the geography differential, which would go away under the current IAM contract if that were adopted. Than
51 Flyboyaz : I don't agree but again I see your point of view. It's obviously about money...the unions are a business really and most businesses are there to make
52 Post contains links PHLBOS : Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 36): When will there be a combined website? According to the above-linked Post-Gazzette article at the beginning of the thr
53 DLPMMM : Unions are not supposed to be businesses. Unions are supposed to be groupings of employees barganing as a block with a company to promote the mutual
54 GSPSPOT : I still think, no matter what Tempe throws at it, PHL is a dog. They're at the mercy of ATC with higher priorities in NYC and Washington. In the BEST
55 Bobnwa : If they ere not US employees how could US fire them and why is the IAM protesting their firing?
56 Post contains images AirframeAS : It has alot to do with the employees. You got to remember how poorly the employees of the old US was treated before HP bought out US. There are a qui
57 Flyboyaz : As far as I know some of them were employees. You can say that again! I work in the passenger service group and our unions (Teamsters and CWA) got ou
58 Mah584jr : PHL is a great airport for US. It is there connecting hub to the Northeast and their international gateway to Europe. US has done very well with PHL s
59 ERJ170 : PHL needs to find a way to stop all these delays. Last time I flew through PHL, I was supposed to connect to SAN.. was it my fault we were on ground
60 Mah584jr : I agree with you. Delays are a major concern. PHL and the FAA are currently looking at an airspace redesign plan. Also Runway 17-35 is being extended
61 HPRamper : It was a group of individuals, some employees, some not. They were all involved in instigating the problem, but apparently the ones who actually thre
62 Tornado82 : What? The committees are irrelevant, they don't have land and can't fill the river, nor buy refineries, and moving I-95 would be a 3-year long disast
63 Mah584jr : You're correct in saying that they lack space at PHL. I agree with you on that; however, the reason why we don't have the space is because the airport
64 Tornado82 : I ask you too, do you have documented proof of this?
65 Vega : Why?? The portion of I95 which is needed for expansion could be subsurfaced as a tunnel, much like many other major airports - LAX, IAH, etc. It coul
66 Mah584jr : No I don't, but why would US stay there if it weren't profitable, or invest millions in new terminal construction.
67 Post contains links and images Tornado82 : Wait for the environmentalists to freak out. I think it's Box Turtles in that area. Some of that riverbank is "Protected" even though it looks like t
68 Post contains links BishopOfPHL : You asked....and five minutes on Google gave this, http://www.postgazette.com/pg/04004/257911.stm http://www.terry.uga.edu/~satkinso/4...20airlines%2
69 BishopOfPHL : They'll also have to kick out all the Sunday afternoon dirtbikers and ATV riders off Hog Island Road, which will be a lot tougher than evironmentalis
70 StarCityFlyr : It's interesting that the discussion is centering around the physical airport situation; however, the quality of the workforce at the airport is still
71 Tornado82 : Yeah, but the point wasn't 2004, it's NOW. With Southwest thrashing fares at Philly, Charlotte is likely to be a far more profitable station than Phi
72 Vega : Combative posture, negative attitude and defeatist ideals is what make some of these posts so comical and predictive. They present an example of a tot
73 Tornado82 : Thanks for adding positiviely to the thread as we can always count on you to do. Seems to me I had well laid out thoughts in my posts. I don't see an
74 Vega : You should expend some of that built up vendetta for Philadelphia and it's airport and use it constructively to revive nowhereland - Pittsburgh. You d
75 PanAm330 : What's more sad is that US' former HQ was in Virginia, not CLT. I wouldn't even start. Have to agree with you on all fronts, Tornado.
76 AirframeAS : PanAm330: My mistake! I had always thought that US was HQed in CLT, now I know they never were. But you get the idea of what I ment about how sad it i
77 Mah584jr : Ah US West and US East, a culture clash on countless levels. Let's hope incidents such as the one in the hotel do not repeat themselves. I can tell, a
78 Tornado82 : Some consolidation of Express carriers might help. Mesa will possibly disappear at some point after the CRJ900 contract expires (E90 as replacement?)
79 WesternA318 : Tornado, I'm going to have to agree with you on this. With mainline going practically all Airbus, the Express carriers could trim the fat a bit and g
80 Flyboyaz : According to a question that was asked at our "state of the airline" meeting, CLT is the highest yielding, followed by PHL. Doug has referred to PHL
81 Tornado82 : Thank you!!!! And just as I thought!
82 HPRamper : I'd love to see some sort of layout on the yields of all the stations in the system.
83 Post contains links PHLBOS : Considering the number of years it took PennDOT to get the current I-95 near PHL finally built (about 15 to 20 years for the 3-mile missing link; wit
84 Post contains images MalpensaSFO : Yet that doesnt stop people from filling planes everyday, now does it?
85 AirframeAS : USWest sounds like the old old telephone company what is now Qwest. LOL!!
86 Jetdeltamsy : USAir is hardly the only company that will terminate employment when two employees get in a fight. on or off the clock. Delta and American both have t
87 AirframeAS : The ONLY way to solve the union issue at US is to put ALL of the unions (in each and every workgroup) in both companies up for a vote with no recourse
88 HPRamper : I don't see why the unions in this case don't do what happened with the CSA's unions...they agreed to join together to form a single entity. Personall
89 Boeingguy1 : ...would it make sense for US to get a little more financing, buy some cheap CRJ 7's, and 9's, and also replace a lot of the CR2's with Dash 8-400S ju
90 Tornado82 : With US' new found affininty for Embraer, I don't think you'll see many (if any) more CRJ orders.
91 Post contains images Steeler83 : Going off topic a little bit, I am sure there might be some additional information on these projects on the PAhighways websites or philadelphia.pahiw
92 9252fly : This threads best post. Surely it's not the only option. How about putting the leadership of the unions on Wrestlemania?
93 Tornado82 : That website does exist. I'm friends with the webmaster of that whole pahighways.com piece of work.
94 Post contains images Steeler83 : sweet! for once I have made a correct assumption Thanks for informing me of its existance Tornado. I guess from one GIS/planning personnel to another
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