Apodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3642 posts, RR: 6 Posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2606 times:
Based on what I have seen, ALPA has screwed up the GoJet deal from day one. Instead of trying to get GoJet pilots to unionize with ALPA they decided to treat them as scabs and blacklist them. Their explaination was that trans states was trying to circumvent the union. What ALPA failed to mention is that the real reason they needed a new certificate was because they fly for AA and the scope clause won't let them. So instead, all they did was piss off the GoJet pilots who then decided to unionize with the teamsters instead.
Did ALPA miscalculate, and how did they let this happen? And given that plenty of regionals have a history of doing this (Republic and Mesa quickly come to mind, heck even Skywest now has two certificates), why did they pick a fight with GoJet? Why don't they try to do this with the other regionals that do this? And why don't they blacklist Skywest pilots, who are not Union, since their arguement is supposedly, only union protections and workrules are good for the profession? This doesn't make sense at all. Of course, I haven't seen ALPA do much that actually works to their benefit either.
AirTran737 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3639 posts, RR: 12 Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2606 times:
Quoting Apodino (Thread starter): Based on what I have seen, ALPA has screwed up the GoJet deal from day one. Instead of trying to get GoJet pilots to unionize with ALPA they decided to treat them as scabs and blacklist them
GoJet Airlines was formed to circumvent the collective bargaining agreement at Trans States Airlines. GoJet is presently owned by Trans States Holdings, Inc, the same company that owns Trans States Airlines. Although they have not obtained an FAA operating certificate, they have hired pilots and have contracted with United Airlines to operate under the United Express brand. This United Express flying will replace flying at Air Wisconsin, a longtime United partner with a unionized pilot group.
GoJet pilots will fly for wages far below the industry standard, without union safety provisions, for a hostile management. Pilots may be forced to work up to sixteen hours straight without a break, may be forced to fly airplanes that they don't believe are safe and may risk losing their job whenever they feel it's necessary to cancel a flight, due to safety concerns. GoJet literally takes airline safety back seventy years.
This airline is simply being used as a whipsaw to drive already depressed labor prices down in the United Express system. By making pilots compete for flying, United hopes to bring already third world wages down a notch. Even before GoJet, many United Express pilots had already qualified for food stamps.
The delusional GoJet pilot actually believes that he or she can carelessly buck the system, achieve super seniority, then move on to a "real" job. It is painfully obvious that they are in it for themselves and only themselves. These so-called professionals show nothing but a blatant disregard for their chosen profession and lack the integrity vital to the aviation industry. Their inexplicable lack of conscious demonstrates absolutely no consideration that their actions are negatively affecting thousands of pilots throughout the industry. Furthermore, it is clear that their myopic, indiscriminate decision to participate in such a dishonorable and disrespectful endeavor should be rewarded with dire, yet justifiable consequences.
These pilots may not technically be SCABS, due to Federal law limiting when pilot groups can strike, however, they are "Virtual SCABS" and deserve the same treatment that any SCAB should receive.
[Edited 2006-04-02 14:18:49]
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
Apodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3642 posts, RR: 6 Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2606 times:
AirTran I am well aware of what that site says, and the point I am making is that I don't think ALPA is telling the whole truth, and by picking a fight here, instead of trying to blacklist people, they could have helped the profession and their organization by trying to get these pilots to join, and I wouldn't be surprised if they had gone ALPA. But because ALPA had the attitude "your not good enough for us", the pilots said screw you guys and ended up unionizing with the teamsters. There was no way these pilots were not going to unionize, but ALPA dug their own grave on this one, and I don't think there is good leadership at ALPA right now.
Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 1): GoJet pilots will fly for wages far below the industry standard, without union safety provisions,
Please. The group has union representation, so the fact that ALPA can make this argument is BS. And again, this is a site that hasn't been updated in a while. They do have a certificate, and are operating flights, and as much as I hate to admit it, they have the best performance numbers of any of the United Express carriers.
And yet they do nothing about either Skyway, who was recently violated by the FAA, or American Eagle, who are both airlines that pay way below industry wages.
J32driver From United States of America, joined May 2000, 399 posts, RR: 1 Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2582 times:
Apodino, you have missed the point.
ALPA's original beef is not with the pilots of GOATJETS. Its with TSA management.
AA scope does NOT require a seperate list of pilots, only a seperate certificate like what Chautauqua, Republic, Shuttle America has worked out. Bunch of different companies to get around the scope issues, ONE list of pilots.
Thats what ALPA wanted... one list of pilots to cover both GOATJETS and TSA. After all, TSA pilots scope intended this but the language of the contract was not strong enough.
THE one and only FACT that matters is this: A seperate pilot list was NOT required to operate GOATJETS. TSA management recognized an opportunity to weaken the TSA ALPA group by building a seperate list to whipsaw the TSA pilots.
Why is a GOATJETS pilot lower than whale dung? Because they KNOW why they exist. They exist to weaken TSA ALPA and they took employment KNOWING this!!!!
ALPA may have not handled the issue as well as should have been. But that certainly doesn't make a GOATJETS pilot a good person. The nicest thing I can say about a GOATJETS pilots is they are opportunistic.
Apodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3642 posts, RR: 6 Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2497 times:
J32 driver just remember that GOJet pilots are people too, and they have families to feed and they have to make a living somehow. I would not use the word opportunistic to describe them, I would just describe them as trying to make a living. And not all the facts are known. Honestly, if I wanted to live in STL, and I had airlines like Skywest, and Air Wisconsin knocking on my door in addition to GoJet, wouldn't it be safe to say that GoJet would be the better option. Yes they pay may be a bit less, but I don't have to worry about commuting hastles and having to pay for a hotel every trip before I get started. How would you like it if someone told you that you were a loser just because of who you choose to work for? I didn't think so.
And my point was, ALPA allowed TSA to weaken then. Yes TSA management is not great, I agree with that. But when GoJet was announced, ALPA should have immediately tried to grieve the contract, and then should have tried to bring the new hire pilots into ALPA. Instead, they try scare tactics like Blacklisting which doesn't work because Airlines don't pay attention to scab lists anyways.
Quoting J32driver (Reply 5): I also don't think you have any concept of what a Union can or can't do
Oh yes I do. As a dispatcher I am a dues paying member of TWU. And let me explain what has happened since they came onto the property. Tuition reimbursement went away, we have no company match on our 401K, and instead of being salaried, we went to an hourly wage. Needless to say, pay and benefits were made worse by TWU coming onto the property, not better. And I am seeing this at most carriers, like USAirs MEC letting their pilots accept worse wages than some regional carriers just to fly the mechanically challenged 190, Mesa's MEC letting Jonny O rape them badly, or American Eagle letting their pilots fly for under 20K a year? I am not sure how the teamsters will do, but I will laugh at ALPA if they can get these "scabs" higher wages than the TSA pilots. I mean, if Skywest pilots can get decent wages and not be unionized, then why can't any other pilot group do the same, and what does ALPA actually do?
I also believe that ALPA has not done a great job of representing regional pilots. I believe mainline pilots are maybe slightly overpaid, but I also believe that regional pilots are severely underpaid, and I haven't seen ALPA do much to address this issue.
Quoting J32driver (Reply 5): What would ALPA do about an FAA violation against SKYWAY? What kind of a violation was it? Any real info?
The violation involved the way they trained their dispatchers and needless to say, most of the people there that were running the dispatch office ended up out of work after this incident. I don't know details, but I heard a rumor that some dispatchers there were falsifying their jumpseat time to stay current, when they had never actually been in the jumpseat. My point was that if that can happen in that department and management is blind, it can happen in the pilot workgroup as well.
Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 6): So, is GoJet actually flying now? Have they received their 10 x CRJ701s? If so, how are their daily ops - are they managing okay?
I don't know if they have all their planes but I do know of the united express carriers, their performance numbers are the highest.
Let me make this clear. I have no love for GoJet either, especially since they helped united push us out the door. But after seeing what united did to us (We can't even non rev on our own 146's anymore), I think Mesa, Trans States, GoJet, and United were all made for each other.
J32driver From United States of America, joined May 2000, 399 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 3 weeks ago) and read 2359 times:
I simply can not beleive that an AIR WILLY dispatcher is defending ANYTHING in regards to Go-Jets.
I spent 6 good years at Air Willy, ATW based for 3 of those, then ORD and PHL. I'm quite sure I probably talked to you on the phone several times in the course of my 3 years as an RJ Captain.
Apodino... I'm sure you are a nice person. But I don't think you really appreciate how much the GoJets guys are helping screw the industry.
If they wanted a job so bad, go work for Skywest, Air Wisconsin, Chautauqua, ExpressJet, Mesa.... or they could have gone to a Fractional or corporate gig.... there are lots of other ways to get money! And commuting is no excuse!