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Update On B6 At EWR?  
User currently offlineKlwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2102 posts, RR: 3
Posted (8 years 9 months 19 hours ago) and read 4915 times:

I am curious if anyone has any additional information on how B6 is doing at EWR. The reason I ask is that I just perused CO's schedule from EWR to FLL and MCO. The depth of CO service on these routes is astounding. They have an hourly shuttle type of service from 6 a.m. to 9 p.m. thereabouts to both destinations. CO is certainly utilizing the 757-300 here (especially to MCO).

I just get the impression that CO is throwing everything at them at their disposal. If B6 attempts to add more at EWR (like transcontinental), I could only imagine how CO would respond then!

I don't doubt that B6 is running full flights in the these markets, but it seems CO is really tightening the screws (a war of attrition).

In these situations, does the legacy carrier's management have any means of monitoring the LCC carrier's performance on competing routes, and make adjustments accordingly??

42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCory6188 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2692 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (8 years 9 months 18 hours ago) and read 4860 times:

Well, I haven't seen it in person, but I read somewhere (it was either here or on flyertalk.com) that CO stationed their CSRs at the B6 gates in Terminal A with counters to keep track of how many people were boarding some of the B6 flights. There's no doubt that CO isn't asleep at the wheel here, but otherwise, I really don't know what's going on...

User currently offlineCODC10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2463 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (8 years 9 months 15 hours ago) and read 4754 times:

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Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 1):
Well, I haven't seen it in person, but I read somewhere (it was either here or on flyertalk.com) that CO stationed their CSRs at the B6 gates in Terminal A with counters to keep track of how many people were boarding some of the B6 flights. There's no doubt that CO isn't asleep at the wheel here, but otherwise, I really don't know what's going on...

This practice has been going on for a while at CO, they have been known to count DL, TZ, UA, and AA pax in the past. Now, with B6 flights on CO territory (A-2), it is not difficult and much more efficient for CO to engage in this very legal form of corporate espionage.


User currently offlineCory6188 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2692 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (8 years 9 months 15 hours ago) and read 4720 times:

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 2):
very legal form of corporate espionage.

I had wondered about the legality of such a move. While I can't think of any actual law per se that they would be breaking, it seems like kind of a tacky practice to me.

[Edited 2006-04-04 05:51:03]

User currently offlineLudavid777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 206 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 9 months 11 hours ago) and read 4645 times:

JetBlue has discontinued EWR-TPA as a result of the stiff CO competition. The others will probably fall one by one. CO offers meals in coach and free entertainment on all EWR - FLORIDA markets to compete with B6.

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33289 posts, RR: 71
Reply 5, posted (8 years 9 months 11 hours ago) and read 4630 times:

Quoting Ludavid777 (Reply 4):
CO offers meals in coach and free entertainment on all EWR - FLORIDA markets to compete with B6.

Meals are not on all flights. Only meal time flights and only mainline operated flights.



a.
User currently offlineNkops From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2711 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (8 years 9 months 6 hours ago) and read 4596 times:

Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 3):
it seems like kind of a tacky practice to me

It is .... but don't kid yourself into thinking that CO is the only one that does it, this has been going on for years by a bunch of airlines. I remember US doing it in PHL a couple times.



I have no association with Spirit Airlines
User currently offlineARGinLON From Vatican City, joined Jun 2005, 614 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 9 months 6 hours ago) and read 4578 times:

Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 3):
had wondered about the legality of such a move. While I can't think of any actual law per se that they would be breaking, it seems like kind of a tacky practice to me

Do you remember the movie “Basic instincts”? Sharon Stone said “What are you going to do? Charge me with smoking”
What can B6 do about it? Take CO to court for “Counting passengers”?

CO won’t give up a single inch to B6 while its alive and kicking


User currently offlineInTheSky74 From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 546 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 9 months 4 hours ago) and read 4537 times:

Don't worry.... every flight I've been on out of EWR to Florida on B6 has been full....

They have their mid-week lulls I'm sure....

Yes, they did cut back EWR-TPA because it wasn't doing well for them, but I've been told the others are doing fine...

They did reduce some of the frequencies for the summer (as they do in JFK as well).

Rob


User currently offlineMikephotos From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2923 posts, RR: 54
Reply 9, posted (8 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4433 times:

Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 3):
I had wondered about the legality of such a move. While I can't think of any actual law per se that they would be breaking, it seems like kind of a tacky practice to me.

With JetBlue being a public company, isn't passenger load information available anyway?

Mike


User currently offlineCory6188 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2692 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (8 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4405 times:

Quoting Mikephotos (Reply 9):
isn't passenger load information available anyway?

Most definitely not. That type of information is available only to the employees of their respective airlines, and it's not the kind of information that they go broadcasting to everyone. It's considered to be highly proprietary.


User currently offlineMikephotos From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2923 posts, RR: 54
Reply 11, posted (8 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4391 times:

Quoting Cory6188 (Reply 10):
Most definitely not. That type of information is available only to the employees of their respective airlines, and it's not the kind of information that they go broadcasting to everyone. It's considered to be highly proprietary.

I could have sworn load factors are available to share holders of a public company, guess I was wrong. Do they just publish general load factors not route specific loads?

Mike


User currently offlineCory6188 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2692 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (8 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4354 times:

Quoting Mikephotos (Reply 11):
Do they just publish general load factors not route specific loads?

Beyond the info that you unofficially get here on a.net from airline employees, the only performance data that airlines ever publish are their systemwide load factors at the end of the month. For example, CO just reported that their systemwide load factor for March 2006 was 81.4%, or something in that range. That's about all you're going to get officially.


User currently offlineMikephotos From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2923 posts, RR: 54
Reply 13, posted (8 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4345 times:

Damn, I guess I'll just have to contact Martha for that info  Wink

Mike


User currently offlineSWA TPA From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 1560 posts, RR: 34
Reply 14, posted (8 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4298 times:

Metrojet used to stand around our WN gates in TPA and count our pax boarding our flights to BWI. After awhile they used to just walk up and ask us how many we had on board. Typically we would tell a small fib and inflate the numbers a tad when the the load was low. Metrojet would write it down, thank us and walk off.  Wink

JBU/SWA TPA



I believe I can fly.....
User currently offlineMikephotos From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2923 posts, RR: 54
Reply 15, posted (8 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 4283 times:

Quoting TPA" class=quote target=_blank>SWA TPA (Reply 14):
Metrojet used to stand around our WN gates in TPA and count our pax boarding our flights to BWI. After awhile they used to just walk up and ask us how many we had on board. Typically we would tell a small fib and inflate the numbers a tad when the the load was low. Metrojet would write it down, thank us and walk off.

Hey, give them credit for taking the easy way out  Wink The agent probably spent the next couple of hours slacking off telling his/her boss later on that it was a lot of work counting all of those WN pax.

So, how are the loads on Jetblue doing out of EWR? To this day I haven't booked anyone on a EWR to XXX flight on B6 but we don't do a lot of Florida flights, mainly just transcon.

Mike


User currently offlineKlwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2102 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (8 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4217 times:

Quoting InTheSky74 (Reply 8):
Don't worry.... every flight I've been on out of EWR to Florida on B6 has been full....

If you read my original post, I stated I don't doubt B6 is running full flights out of EWR. However full loads do not profitable flights make. This fact has been stated probably a million times before in this forum.

For example, CO used to have a large operation in Australia and New Zealand. This flights ran packed all the time. However the yield was so poor they discontinued most of those operations. Here is another example. When CO had a hub in DEN, Poor loads were not the problem. Profitability was the problem.


User currently offlineMia2dca From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 18 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (8 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4131 times:

JetBlue, like all carriers operating to/from/within the U.S., reports traffic and capacity data on a route by route basis to the DOT on a monthly basis. This data is available to the public. JetBlue's EWR routes have posted the following load factors so far:

MONTH O D Load Factor
Oct-05 EWR FLL 66%
Nov-05 EWR FLL 74%
Dec-05 EWR FLL 83%
Oct-05 EWR MCO 79%
Nov-05 EWR MCO 82%
Dec-05 EWR MCO 83%
Oct-05 EWR PBI 74%
Nov-05 EWR PBI 81%
Dec-05 EWR PBI 85%
Oct-05 EWR RSW 68%
Nov-05 EWR RSW 85%
Dec-05 EWR RSW 84%
Nov-05 EWR SJU 81%
Dec-05 EWR SJU 73%
Oct-05 EWR TPA 74%
Nov-05 EWR TPA 85%
Dec-05 EWR TPA 82%


User currently offlineB797 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 54 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4125 times:

Flying EWR-MCO next week. Hope the loads are low. With a 1 YR old the less the better!!

User currently offlineIowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4437 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (8 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4119 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting Mia2dca (Reply 17):
JetBlue, like all carriers operating to/from/within the U.S., reports traffic and capacity data on a route by route basis to the DOT on a monthly basis. This data is available to the public. JetBlue's EWR routes have posted the following load factors so far:

Can you give me a link to where that info is at? It would be much appreciated.


User currently offlineLetsgetwet From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 609 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (8 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 4098 times:

Quoting Mia2dca (Reply 17):

If those #'s are real, I can tell you that CO's are higher and on larger aircraft. I doubt they are making much of a profit (if any) but the name of the game is "I can bleed less and longer than you".


User currently offlinePetazulu From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 701 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (8 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4065 times:

http://www.bts.gov/

you can get all that info here....


User currently offlineIowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4437 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (8 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4055 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting Petazulu (Reply 21):
http://www.bts.gov/

you can get all that info here....

What a pain in the a** to find those statistics. I still haven't found it.


User currently offlineIowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4437 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (8 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4015 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Anyone have a direct link?

User currently offlineMia2dca From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 18 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (8 years 8 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3979 times:

Iowaman --

Here's the direct link to the DOT's aviation data:

http://transtats.bts.gov/Databases.a...1&Mode_Desc=Aviation&Subject_ID2=0

The load factor data I posted came from the Form 41 Traffic data set (better known as the T100).


25 Mia2dca : Here are the numbers for CO in the B6 markets: MONTH Car O D Load Factor Oct-05 CO EWR FLL 66% Nov-05 CO EWR FLL 74% Dec-05 CO EWR FLL 76% Oct-05 CO
26 Nkops : Thats funny.. years ago when NK flew into PHL, US use to pax count on the FLL and MCO flights. After a while, the NK supv would just go up to them an
27 Post contains images MalpensaSFO : Werent the blue juice drinkers saying it was because they needed the equipment elsewhere, and that EWR-TPA was going seasonal... What drama those blu
28 Mikephotos : I knew I saw the information posted somewhere and that it is available to the public. Thanks for confirming that. Mike
29 Post contains images Iowaman : Thanks! But now of course my computer says it can't read .csv files.
30 Airzim : .csv can be converted to Excel. Try and save the file to Excel. It should work
31 Iowaman : Yep, thanks! Now how did you get those that detailed? I'm able to get passengers out of each state etc. but not like that.
32 Mia2dca : Iowaman -- The T100 Domestic Segment database has the market by market detail I used to get those numbers. I just pulled data for the state of New Jer
33 Letsgetwet : So you don't have load factors for specific flights.
34 MasseyBrown : Thanks for adding numbers to the discussion. The T100 seems a bit friendlier since the BTS updated its website. It used to be fairly nasty about fiel
35 Richierich : According to the numbers, CO took a 9% drop during the same period, although their LFs are higher than JetBlue's. Must be something about the NYC-SJU
36 Post contains images MalpensaSFO : Low Yields... Got to love 'em...
37 Iowaman : I'd be interested in what the loads were from LAS-PHX. Never heard of an empty seat on that.
38 MalpensaSFO : B6 does not fly that route...
39 Iowaman : I know, I was refering to the DOT statistics.
40 Cloudy : Michael Boyd says that the DOT information is largely innacurate. He says it is based on things like surveys and GDS data, and so has major holes. I
41 Richierich : Considering its a market saturated with a lot of America West and Southwest flights, I'm sure the loads are OK at best.
42 Iowaman : I'm sure the loads are great at worst.
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