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New A320 With Winglets... Big Save?  
User currently offlineUsair330 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 827 posts, RR: 1
Posted (8 years 7 months 20 hours ago) and read 20258 times:

Now that Airbus is planning on putting winglets on the A320 will it make much of a diffrence? And what airlines are likely to put them on there A32X fleet?


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61 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAv8rPHX From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 713 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (8 years 7 months 20 hours ago) and read 20198 times:

Looks like a big E190

User currently offlineSolnabo From Sweden, joined Jan 2008, 855 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (8 years 7 months 20 hours ago) and read 20182 times:

Looks awesome imo.

Hope they start with those winglets on A320 family

Micke//SWE  bigthumbsup 



Airbus SAS - Love them both
User currently offlineRams777 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2001, 58 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 7 months 20 hours ago) and read 20158 times:

Please tell me its another April Fools Prank by A.net!!!!!!!!

User currently offlineDogfighter2111 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2004, 1968 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (8 years 7 months 20 hours ago) and read 20158 times:

ewwww, looks ugly. They sooooo do not suit the A320. They are really too straight, the B73X Winglets are curved and everything.

Thanks
Mike


User currently offlineN276AASTT From US Virgin Islands, joined Jan 2004, 620 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 7 months 20 hours ago) and read 20125 times:

Here in the states, I can see JetBlue adding them to some of or perhaps all of their fleet. It would definately help on the transcons out of JFK and back.


Dejale Caer tu el Peso! YOMO
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 6, posted (8 years 7 months 20 hours ago) and read 20105 times:

Those are way too fugly, I tell ya! Make it look like a Russian Bloc made airliner. The 737NG winglets are more sexier. If Airbus was to redesign the wingtip fences, do something that's more attractive and bring life to the aircraft while keeping efficency in mind.


A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineSNATH From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3247 posts, RR: 22
Reply 7, posted (8 years 7 months 20 hours ago) and read 20105 times:

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 2):
Looks awesome imo.

You would say that, though, wouldn't you?  Smile For once, I agree with you. However, I was under the impression that they were going to put blended ones on it?

Tony



Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
User currently offlineShamrock350 From Ireland, joined Mar 2005, 6348 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (8 years 7 months 20 hours ago) and read 20073 times:

Quoting SNATH (Reply 7):
I was under the impression that they were going to put blended ones on it

There are two designs this is the first so I think the next winglets will be blended.


User currently offline787engineer From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 572 posts, RR: 15
Reply 9, posted (8 years 7 months 20 hours ago) and read 20073 times:

They look fine to me. They aren't blended like the 737s but that just makes it cheaper to produce and easier to install. The sharp edge creates a larger drag penalty. But I'm sure the studies were done and the straight edge was found to be the most economical when all costs were considered. We can see how much of a difference it makes by keeping an eye on how many airlines opt for the winglets. I personally don't think it'll make too much of a difference otherwise Airbus would've had the option years ago. Just my

[Edited 2006-04-04 20:12:44]

User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3171 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (8 years 7 months 19 hours ago) and read 19958 times:

Quoting N276AASTT (Reply 5):
Here in the states, I can see JetBlue adding them to some of or perhaps all of their fleet.

Actually, the winglets on this plane are there because of a special request from JetBlue. They also asked Aviation Partners for a proposal, so it's time to look forward to their plane too. There was a picture a while ago, but this turned out to be a fake one. ( http://rockymountainavphotos.com/Eric/basic_images/B6AVPwinglets.jpg , just search for the reg on a.net and you see the same picture without the winglets ).

Quoting 787engineer (Reply 9):
I personally don't think it'll make too much of a difference otherwise Airbus would've had the option years ago.

It's a balance between manufacturing and installation costs on the one side and fuel savings on the other side. With fuel prices as high as they are now, the balance gives a different outcome than two years ago. So, it's not strange that they come with the option only now. You also see the mass orders for 737NG winglets only since a year or 2.


User currently offlineMidnightMike From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2892 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (8 years 7 months 19 hours ago) and read 19885 times:

Quoting 787engineer (Reply 9):
I personally don't think it'll make too much of a difference otherwise Airbus would've had the option years ago. Just my

Airlines have been requesting Airbus for years to improve the winglets on the aircraft.

Even if you improve the efficency between 1% - 2%, that is a major savings to the airlines, & will help airlines like Jetblue to fly from the west coast to the east coast without taking a tech stop....



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User currently offlineMilan320 From Canada, joined Jan 2005, 869 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (8 years 7 months 19 hours ago) and read 19825 times:

Quoting Shamrock350 (Reply 8):
There are two designs this is the first so I think the next winglets will be blended.

From a looks point of view - I hope they don't put the blended ones on. I always thought the ones on the 737s were atrocious. Too in-your-face - like a big SUV.
But hey, it's all a matter of opinion when it comes to looks. Maybe if I get drunk the blended ones will look nicer  drunk   biggrin 
-Milan320



I accept bribes ... :-)
User currently offline787engineer From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 572 posts, RR: 15
Reply 13, posted (8 years 7 months 19 hours ago) and read 19782 times:

Quoting Joost (Reply 10):

It's a balance between manufacturing and installation costs on the one side and fuel savings on the other side. With fuel prices as high as they are now, the balance gives a different outcome than two years ago. So, it's not strange that they come with the option only now. You also see the mass orders for 737NG winglets only since a year or 2.

I wasn't aware JetBlue requested these, thanks for the info.  Smile Good point, its only in the past few years that the winglets have become much more popular, most likely directly related to rising fuel costs.


User currently offlineMikephotos From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2923 posts, RR: 54
Reply 14, posted (8 years 7 months 19 hours ago) and read 19782 times:

Quoting Joost (Reply 10):
There was a picture a while ago, but this turned out to be a fake one. ( http://rockymountainavphotos.com/Eric/basic_images/B6AVPwinglets.jpg , just search for the reg on a.net and you see the same picture without the winglets ).

No need to search, that's a pretty bad fake. (no disrespect to the artist)

Mike


User currently offlineHb88 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 817 posts, RR: 31
Reply 15, posted (8 years 7 months 19 hours ago) and read 19769 times:

Quoting 787engineer (Reply 9):
They look fine to me. They aren't blended like the 737s but that just makes it cheaper to produce and easier to install. The sharp edge creates a larger drag penalty. But I'm sure the studies were done and the straight edge was found to be the most economical when all costs were considered. We can see how much of a difference it makes by keeping an eye on how many airlines opt for the winglets. I personally don't think it'll make too much of a difference otherwise Airbus would've had the option years ago. Just my

You're exactly right. Winglets on the 320 line have never been an issue or particularly important to the airlines. Other Airbus aircraft have more conventional winglets and they work just as advertised.

For the short-haul missions that the 320 was designed for, the winglet weight penalty tends to outweigh any drag count benefit that the winglets provide. Recall too that adding winglets usually increases the wing root bending moment, so it's not a simple case of just attaching them and off you go. Depending on the winglet geometry, structural changes may be necessary. So that's added cost for a doubtful benefit for the normal 320 mission profile.

There also isn't too much between winglet performance in terms of design, they are usually within a few fractions of a percent of each other when structural variations are taken into account. So, the wing-tip fences normally seen on the 320 actually perform comparably with winglets whether they are blended or conventional (ie, aviation partners or winglet technologies design).

JetBlue are unusual in that they use the 320 on longer range missions, so minor improvements might possibly let them fly coast to coast, although I gather that this hasn't been proven yet. Nevertheless, JetBlue are keen to see if any fuel-burn advantage can be eked out of the 320 design on "longer" haul.


User currently offlineAirbusA346 From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2004, 7437 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (8 years 7 months 18 hours ago) and read 19660 times:

They are discusting  vomit   vomit 

They are not blended and look like oversized A340 winglets.  Sad

Tom.



Tom Walker '086' First Officer of a A318/A319 for Air Lambert - Hours Flown: 17 hour 05 minutes (last updated 24/12/05).
User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4689 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (8 years 7 months 18 hours ago) and read 19610 times:

If you ask me, the look of them is (Yuck!)².

If in the future the new aircraft off the line come with these, the A32S will have lost its most distinctive feature.  ashamed 



Exceptions confirm the rule.
User currently offlineBabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 7 months 18 hours ago) and read 19578 times:

I think the winglets look kinda cute.

In design it is always better to avoid edges and pointy things. Smooth curves work a lot better.


User currently offlineAntoniemey From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1585 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (8 years 7 months 18 hours ago) and read 19538 times:

Quoting Dogfighter2111 (Reply 4):
ewwww, looks ugly. They sooooo do not suit the A320. They are really too straight, the B73X Winglets are curved and everything.

Agreed, agreed, and agreed... they just don't look right. Heck... looks like they'd snap off in a windstorm.



Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
User currently offlineSNATH From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3247 posts, RR: 22
Reply 20, posted (8 years 7 months 18 hours ago) and read 19484 times:

Quoting Shamrock350 (Reply 8):
There are two designs this is the first so I think the next winglets will be blended.

Ah, you're right! It's all coming back now... Thanks!

Tony



Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2156 posts, RR: 16
Reply 21, posted (8 years 7 months 17 hours ago) and read 19337 times:

This looks very good on the A320 in my opinion! There is something modern about winglets. I don't really mind whether they are blended or not. The A330 for instance looks fabulous with its winglets.

I'm glad to see the A320 with winglets. it is such a cool looking plane and now even cooler  Smile

Well done Airbus.

cheers

Asturias



Tonight we fly
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 22, posted (8 years 7 months 15 hours ago) and read 19152 times:

I thought B6 was leasing a plane to Airbus for the tests...if thats the case, why is the 320 in Airbus colors??


A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 23, posted (8 years 7 months 15 hours ago) and read 19132 times:

Quoting Av8rPHX (Reply 1):
Looks like a big E190

Yeah....... Too bad, huh?

Quoting Dogfighter2111 (Reply 4):
ewwww, looks ugly. They sooooo do not suit the A320. They are really too straight, the B73X Winglets are curved and everything.

I agree the 73X's winglets are far more attractive to look at. Even my girlfreind, who doesn't know the first thing about airplanes saw a 73X on tv the other night and said she liked the winglets. The A320 ones look ugly. Sorry.

My guess is they don't make much of a difference, Airbus picked the little (and far more attractive) winglets they originally put there for a reason. i don't think many airlines will pick up on this option.

And the A330/340 winglets are far more attractive than these.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineKFLLCFII From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3304 posts, RR: 30
Reply 24, posted (8 years 7 months 13 hours ago) and read 18963 times:

A big E190 would look ok, but that looks more like a shortened TU-204:


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 yuck 



"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
25 Post contains images SNATH : ...just take a look at the B787! Tony
26 MidnightMike : Jetblue uses the A320, on the US coast-to-coast market, West to the East. This is not exactly a short range flight, but would be classified as a medi
27 Stealth777 : to me those winglets look like the ones similar to the 744, but they just dont sit well to the eyes. they've had time to see the ones on the 737 serie
28 Wn700driver : I see how they just may not look right. . . . . .Now. But then, even the blended winglets the 73Gs have looked a bit out of place at first. I think i
29 Joost : Well, this is still the Airbus testbed. It's the first A320 ever produced and the one that is used for all testing. AFAIK, they will first do several
30 Post contains images Ikramerica : I think they look okay, and remember, they are just white now. Airlines will paint them. B6 will likely match them to the tail of each aircraft. F9 wi
31 Post contains images Jonathan-l : Original question: Most answers: Yuck, disgusting, cute, horrible, they look fine... And another thread goes on how Randy Baseler reads the Airliners.
32 Mir : I don't think the artist was actually trying to fool people with this one - it was more of a "what would this look like" edit. If I'm not mistaken, t
33 Post contains links and images Keesje : Flight article http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...test+campaign+on+A320+blended.html Unfortunaly not a very accurate article: The first devices a
34 Nucsh : I think it pretty much plays out this way... Airbus Design Team - swing-and-a-miss. Of course, they have to be aerodynamically sound/efficient. But as
35 Post contains images Morvious : The problem is that they do not design these things for the looks , and my guess is that this shape fits the wing with the best performence possible!
36 Post contains images Nucsh : I agree that it brings added performance somewhere (it would have to or else it would just be a waste of R&D funds), but it goes against what I 'm le
37 Post contains images Goodbye : Yeah, because attractiveness is most of what airlines look for in an aircraft Still looks better than the 787 though!
38 Post contains links and images Joost : There is a very interesting last paragraph in the article: I googled in the company but I couldn't find a webpage. This is an interesting article thou
39 Kazzie : To be honest, it looks horrible to me.....
40 Post contains images Nucsh : I guess someone just had to fit it in somewhere...
41 BHMBAGLOCK : Search around, there was a thread a while back where somebody(AeroWeanie?) posted a picture of a wind tunnel model.
42 ZRH : Why do you guys all whine about the looks of the winglets. The airlines and Airbus do not care at all about this. Only efficiency is important and no
43 AVIOGENEX : I personally think that they look terrible, the current wingtip fences look much better IMO. I really hope that the Aviation Partners option offered f
44 Antoniemey : Well, to be truthful, the first time I saw a 737 with winglets (a WN plane) I thought it looked more natural (And nicer) than it looked without them.
45 N328KF : I think they look awful. To be fair, I don't like the 737 winglets, either. I guess I just far prefer raked wingtips to other devices.
46 AeroWeanie : Not me - I have yet to see a picture of the Winglet Technologies winglets. Not so. To quote myself in How Do Winglets Differ From Each Other?: This t
47 AirPacific747 : I don't like the ones on the 737, because I think they are too big! the 737 looks way better without. Luckily the winglets are not designed to satisfy
48 Post contains links and images Lightsaber : First, very nice summary. Note: there is a techops discussion also on this topic. I bow to your superious knowlege of wing design. I love it when I l
49 Post contains links and images A319XFW : Just out of interest - is that Jeff Jupp? As I couldn't find anything abotu that patent. The only thing I can find in Google is this thread There was
50 AirframeAS : Because the beauty is in the eye of the beholder... Is it a crime to have an opinion, bro?! Get a sense of humor, man....please!!
51 AeroWeanie : The names on the patent are Jeffrey A. Jupp and Peter H. Rees.
52 Congaboy : Interesting evolution. Thanks for that. Can you cite the average drag reduction percentage for this generation? Just curious to see how it compares.
53 Post contains links A319XFW : Ok, thanks for that - Jeff Jupp used to be head of wing structures (IIRC) at Airbus and is now visiting professor at Bath Uni (where I studied - henc
54 Hb88 : I see that some of your comparisons were expected drag reductions. From talking to the flight physics guys, my understanding was that when you take i
55 Post contains images BHMBAGLOCK : Could have sworn it was you, oh well here's the result of a quick Google image search: Better than a wind tunnel model, the real thing! Looks kind of
56 AirCanada014 : I think it looks alright on A320s. I think AC would be the next airline to adapt the winglet for their A320s since they are used for long range too wi
57 Post contains links and images 2H4 : Spiroids. ...From http://www.aviationpartners.com/otherprograms/concepts.html: A small Seattle company, Aviation Partners, Inc., is developing advanc
58 KcrwFlyer : Those a320 winglest look alot like the winglets they put on the 737-200. Sorry if previously mentioned.
59 Lehpron : Before SC died out, Boeing offered the plane in two flavors, the standard highspeed M0.98 version and a slower M0.86 version with better engines. Air
60 HAWK21M : Let the Test results come in First.... regds MEL
61 Post contains links Joost : This is not the same as the one airbus mentioned! The winglets on the pictures you posted are a concept by Aviation Partners Inc, based in Seattle, W
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