TommyBP251b From Germany, joined Apr 2006, 389 posts, RR: 0 Posted (3 years 7 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4190 times:
Hi everybody!
I am Tom. I am new on this page. So at first I want to introduce myself. I am a medical student from Budapest. Before I started studying medicin I wanted to become a pilot. I made the first Lufthansa exam two years ago and passed it. I am just a aviation enthusiast.
All right here is my question
Which routes did european airlines, e.g. LH, AF, BA, fly to for example Tokyo or HKG during the time of the cold war? Did they fly through ANC or did they make stops somewhere in the middle east?
DETA737 From Portugal, joined Oct 2000, 576 posts, RR: 1 Reply 1, posted (3 years 7 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4124 times:
JAL began service to Moscow in 1967 and I know by the 1970s they flew to Paris and Frankfurt via Moscow. However, most of their European routes stopped in Anchorage. BOAC also was flying London-Moscow-Tokyo by the late 60s.
Almost all major carriers used ANC up until 1991 as a stopover point on routes linking Japan and Korea to Europe. British Airways, JAL, Lufthansa, KLM, Korean Air, Sabena, SAS are some of the carriers that flew the Polar route.
Airlines serving HKG, BKK, SIN etc usually flew south over India instead of having to go over both Soviet and Chinese airspace. A typical flight from London to Hong Kong would make 2 or 3 stops along the way, sometimes more.
Levg79 From United States, joined Sep 2003, 942 posts, RR: 3 Reply 2, posted (3 years 7 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4088 times:
Tom, welcome to the forum! At times like this I still remember the first question I've ever asked on this forum, which ironically was moved to the tech/ops forum.
I think that Pan Am was allowed to fly over the USSR, wasn't it? I know that it used to operate into Moscow, a route which is now operated by Delta. But if I heard right, pilots needed to speak Russian as the Soviet ATC wouldn't speak in any other language than Russian. Can anyone confirm this?
I know that most flights between Asia and Europe went through ANC, but still it seems like a very long way off course. Does anyone know how much time and money is now being saved by these flights going direct overflying Russia?
Leo.
A mile of runway takes you to the world. A mile of highway takes you a mile.
RoseFlyer From United States, joined Feb 2004, 5627 posts, RR: 27 Reply 4, posted (3 years 7 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 4002 times:
BA routed its flights to Hong Kong through its other former colony of India. Back during the Cold War, there weren't really planes that had enough range to fly nonstop to Europe from HKG and other Asian cities (except for the inefficient 747SP). It wasn't until the 747-400s came around that all those flights became nonstop and the 744 came just a few years before the break up of the Soviet Union.
My job is to make it so your flight is not delayed. Come fly the friendly skies!
DETA737 From Portugal, joined Oct 2000, 576 posts, RR: 1 Reply 6, posted (3 years 7 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3880 times:
Many airlines flew to the USSR, but it seems that the Soviet government must have only allowed select airlines from certain capitalist countries fly over their territory. I know the routes were usually served on a reciprocal basis, since airlines would usually open up a route once Aeroflot began flying to a country. For instance Pan Am and Aeroflot began New York/Moscow in 1968. By that time many other carriers served Moscow, such as Air Canada, Sabena, BOAC, etc. Lufthansa began service around 1972 when relations between the Federal Republic of Germany and the Soviet Union began to thaw.
The USSR was very paranoid about its airspace and the granting of access to it was usually dependent on cold war relations. Aeroflot was banned from serving the USA from 1983 until 1986 due to the shooting down of Korean Air 007. Pan Am had dropped Moscow in the late 1970s but began serving it again in 1986 along with Leningrad.
About the additional flying times, well from London to Tokyo has 1/3 more flying time via Anchorage.
TommyBP251b From Germany, joined Apr 2006, 389 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (3 years 7 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3689 times:
Thanks a lot everyone. I knew a lot more now. I thought before that no western airline was allowed to fly over russia.
So LH was allowed to serve Moscow during cold war as Deta 737 said. But why weren't they allowed to serve West-Berlin? Just because of the allied status of our capital? Or didn't they have the rights to overfly GDR?
Dazeflight From Germany, joined Jun 1999, 423 posts, RR: 3 Reply 8, posted (3 years 7 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3574 times:
Quoting TommyBP251b (Reply 7): So LH was allowed to serve Moscow during cold war as Deta 737 said. But why weren't they allowed to serve West-Berlin? Just because of the allied status of our capital? Or didn't they have the rights to overfly GDR?
LH was allowed to serve the GDR just like IF was allowed to serve West Germany. However, afaik these services only took place during the Leipzig trade fair. You are right, LH was not allowed to serve West-Berlin because of the allied status. This situation led to the AF-LH joint venture Euroberlin France which continued to fly until '92 or so. I even believe that this is the reason why initially (until October '90), they served Berlin via SXF.
TommyBP251b From Germany, joined Apr 2006, 389 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3406 times:
Quote: Dazeflight: I even believe that this is the reason why initially (until October '90), they served Berlin via SXF.
What do you mean by that? LH served SXF initially because of their joint venture of Euroberlin France, which probably served TXL. Did I understand that right?
So LH did not want to make competition to their own joint venture, I guess.
LH459 From United States, joined Aug 2005, 691 posts, RR: 2 Reply 10, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3391 times:
Quoting Dazeflight (Reply 8): This situation led to the AF-LH joint venture Euroberlin France which continued to fly until '92 or so. I even believe that this is the reason why initially (until October '90), they served Berlin via SXF.
Actually, I could've sworn Euroberlin (I think their code was EE) served TXL, not SXF.
"I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is temporary; the evil it does is permanent" - Ghandi
Gemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 3055 posts, RR: 5 Reply 11, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3277 times:
Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 4): BA routed its flights to Hong Kong through its other former colony of India. Back during the Cold War, there weren't really planes that had enough range to fly nonstop to Europe from HKG and other Asian cities (except for the inefficient 747SP). It wasn't until the 747-400s came around that all those flights became nonstop and the 744 came just a few years before the break up of the Soviet Union.
Not really. In the 1960s/70s/80s BOAC routed flights to HKG via India, ANC-TYO and SFO/LAX-HNL carefully avoiding both the USSR and China. As DETA737 said in reply 1 JAL commenced service in 1967 TYO-SVO, it was non stop with DC-8s. Shortly, if not from the beginning, services went on from SVO to Western Europe. Other Western airlines including AF & BA, at least, (but not, AFAIK, LH) commenced Europe - Japan services via SVO during the late 60s/early 70 with 707s. By the late 60s SK was operating CPH-BKK via Tashkent.
So services across the USSR to Japan and SE Asia were well established long before the B744 came along, but were not non stop, of course. HKG and other east Asians port had to wait for the thaw in relations with China.
Wrighbrothers From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2005, 1815 posts, RR: 12 Reply 12, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3133 times:
Going slightly off topic, but what commercial airports were in East Germany ?
And what routes to/from western Europe were flown ?
I remember someone telling me that there was a West-East Germany airlink, is that true.
As for the topic, I'm looking at a BA map (probbably from the 70's/80's) and it shows no route going via Moscow, but they did over fly the USSR on the way to Deli.
However in saying that, I can remeber talking to an ex BA flight engineer, and he said when he flew on the ex BCAL 747's, they used to have to stop off in Moscow on the way to Deli.
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 10371 posts, RR: 67 Reply 13, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3081 times:
Quoting Dazeflight (Reply 8): Quoting TommyBP251b (Reply 7):
So LH was allowed to serve Moscow during cold war as Deta 737 said. But why weren't they allowed to serve West-Berlin? Just because of the allied status of our capital? Or didn't they have the rights to overfly GDR?
LH was allowed to serve the GDR just like IF was allowed to serve West Germany. However, afaik these services only took place during the Leipzig trade fair. You are right, LH was not allowed to serve West-Berlin because of the allied status. This situation led to the AF-LH joint venture Euroberlin France which continued to fly until '92 or so. I even believe that this is the reason why initially (until October '90), they served Berlin via SXF.
ciao
Due to Allied status no German (East or West) registered plane was allowed to use any airport within Berlin (SXF is technically outside the city limits of Berlin) or cross the German-German border (flying through the ADIZ on the western side).
The only exeption I know of was a emergency medical fight, IIRC a Learjet, which got a special permission by both the Western Allies, the Soviets and both German governments to cross the border on an emergency flight somewhere in the 1980s.
If LH flew to Leibzig, they had to leave Westgerman airspace through Denmark and enter the GDR over the Baltic coast. Direct flights were not permitted.
Dazeflight From Germany, joined Jun 1999, 423 posts, RR: 3 Reply 14, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3056 times:
Quoting TommyBP251b (Reply 9): What do you mean by that? LH served SXF initially because of their joint venture of Euroberlin France, which probably served TXL. Did I understand that right?
Nope. I was referring to the fact that LH was not allowed to serve West-Berlin. That's why until October 3rd, 1990, LH could not serve TXL and had to got to SXF instead. I'm not 100% sure about that, tough. I just know that thex definitely served SXF.
Quoting LH459 (Reply 10): Actually, I could've sworn Euroberlin (I think their code was EE) served TXL, not SXF.
Yes, EE served TXL, but LH had to serve SXF, initially. (at leats I believe so)
Gemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 3055 posts, RR: 5 Reply 17, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2827 times:
Quoting BA747YYZ (Reply 16): Probobaly, I doubt the Russians did it in English, so yes I would assume so.
One point relevent to this was that USSR did not sign the Chicargo Convention and join ICAO untill fairly late in the scheme of things. 1970 rings a bell but don't bet on it. So before then EVERYTHING was by negotiation between the two countries concerned, there were no international standards in place, with the USSR.
I very vaguely remember something about Russian pilots being in the cockpit on all flights EAST of Moscow. After the USSR joined ICAO there was I am sure a transition period for introducing ICAO standards. I have no idea how long it was.
Frugalqxnwa From United States, joined Apr 2004, 565 posts, RR: 1 Reply 18, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2759 times:
If I am reading this thread right, all western airlines flying through Soviet airspace did so only when serving a city in the USSR. The reasin I bring this up is I remember as a kid when the cold war was winding down in '89 or '90 a news report about NW finally getting permission to overfly the USSR without serving a city within the USSR.
EHHO From Germany, joined Dec 2005, 815 posts, RR: 10 Reply 20, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2653 times:
Quoting Frugalqxnwa (Reply 18): If I am reading this thread right, all western airlines flying through Soviet airspace did so only when serving a city in the USSR. The reasin I bring this up is I remember as a kid when the cold war was winding down in '89 or '90 a news report about NW finally getting permission to overfly the USSR without serving a city within the USSR.
Very correct, sir. In those days, you could see very exotic things in SVO (the only Soviet airport allowed to serve Western airliners): VS 742s and KL 743s on their way to NRT for instance.
I tried to look up a photo of a 747 in SVO in the 80s, but all in vain: there isn't a single 80s SVO shot in the database!! It sort of gives you an idea of what kind of place the USSR was. The earliest 747 at SVO pic I could find was this beautiful rarity:
Nowadays all foreign government flights are handled at VKO, which has an executive terminal that is also used by Rossiya airline, the Russian governmen's ride. Anyway, back to topic...
"Get your facts first. Then you may distort them as much as you please" -- Mark Twain
Clipper002 From United States, joined Aug 2004, 657 posts, RR: 22 Reply 23, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2390 times:
Tommy,
Let me assure you that none of Pan Am's crews spoke Russian when operating into Moscow. English was the language used and still is today when transitting Russian airspace.
Levg79 From United States, joined Sep 2003, 942 posts, RR: 3 Reply 24, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2347 times:
Clipper002, I assume you flew into USSR when you worked for Pan Am? If I'm correct, can you give us any info on the way American pilots were treated in USSR back then? Thanks.
Leo.
A mile of runway takes you to the world. A mile of highway takes you a mile.
Sabena332 From Germany, joined May 2001, 14273 posts, RR: 100 Reply 25, posted (3 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2194 times:
I have an old Lufthansa onboard magazine from 1983 (or 1984) at home and I am sure that the routemap showed at least two routes to South East Asia via USSR airspace beside the usual route via ANC.
I will take a closer look when I am back in Germany at the end of next week.
Patrick
26 DCAYOW: I recall Finnair actually marketed their HEL-NRT service to Western Europe because they were allowed to overfly the USSR with their DC-10s and reach N
27 Vincewy: I've also heard that airlines flying over USSR (especially Siberia) had to close all window shades during the flights, so no one could see what Soviet
28 TommyBP251b: Thats interesting. Sounds somehow funny. But I believe you in that. How did the russians control that all window shades were closed?
29 Eilennaei: Yes, they would have beem allowed to overfly Siberia, but eventually the price for the rights was deemed too high, and so they built a special -ER ve
30 Laxintl: Up until the mid 80s, flying east of Moscow was very much an adventure for foreign airlines on trans-Siberia routings. Many carriers picked up a Russi
31 Eilennaei: NDB was in fact the standard in the USSR, like the more remote areas in North America. I'm certain these were published to the necessary degree.
32 Goaliemn: I flew out of Russia in 89 and remember being told to keep all the window shades closed. once we cleared soviet airspace, the pilot announced it and
33 Laxintl: Indeed they were published along the few East-West routes that traversed the USSR, but not much else was shared with foreign airlines. The Jeppesen s
34 Eilennaei: Well whoever gave that directive most likely wanted to provide an impression of an "evil empire". Very likely no such policy would have been official
35 TS-IOR: Irkutsk VOR was, and still is, a significant point for the Europe-Asia traffic with tens of contrails overhead. In the early 90s, i saw a documentary
36 BCAL: By coincidence I am in the process of bidding for a BCal paperweight that according to the decsription If this descirption is true, BCal was the first
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