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Deregulation And TWA  
User currently offlineUAL#1fan From United States of America, joined May 2001, 88 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 5 months 14 hours ago) and read 4009 times:

I've always read that the gradual fall of TWA from major international airline to American merger fodder began as a result of deregulation. But how exactly did de-reg hurt TWA? In the 1970s, unlike Pan Am, they had a pretty good domestic feeder network in addition to its extensive international coverage. Couldn't TWA have just expanded a little bit more domestically in the 1980s to weather the post-deregulation storm? From the looks of their routes and financial situation of the late 1970s, it appeared that TWA could survive and thrive after deregulation was passed.


United Air Lines -Mainliners Coast to Coast
62 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (8 years 5 months 14 hours ago) and read 3995 times:

TWA had a very linear route network in the 1970s. They did not develop what we now know as hubs. They flew a very point-to-point route structure. Also, because of the increase in jet fuel and increased foreign competition on international, TWA, like Pan Am, did not fare well financially in the 1970s. In fact, TW gave up round-the-world authority in 1975 for PA's routes to Paris, among other things. They sold off 747s to meet payroll. TWA was part of a holding company, the Trans World Corporation, that also owned hotels and restaurants, among others things. In 1983, TW Corporation split Trans World Airlines, PARS and all other things related to TWA into its own company. It was ripe for a takeover. In the end, it was either Frank Lorenzo or Carl Icahn. Knowing what Lorenzo did to CO (and was about to do to EA), TWA's stockholders chose Icahn, who took the company private in 1988, therefore making it theoretically impossible to make money. After that, the most profitable assets were sold, most notably the LHR slots to AA in 1991 for about $200 million dollars. Also, TWA's historically large presence at ORD was sold off to AA in 1992. TWA flew to MDW only for about six months, and then was given token slots to return to ORD. After the assets were sold, TWA's chances of survival were slim at best. Icahn also moved TWA's headquarters from New York City to his own complex in Mount Kisko, NY. The added pressures of fuel costs drove TWA into Chapter 11 bankruptcy in 1992, and then and only then, was Icahn forced out. After that, TWA's employees got 40% of the company's stock upon emergence from Chapter 11. The creditors got the remaining 60%. The company's headquarters was moved back to St. Louis. But Icahn had one other trick up his sleeve. The Karabu ticketing agreement allowed Icahn to buy TWA tickets for $0.55 on the dollar, and then sell it to wholesalers to market the seats. TWA became a poor man's discount airline, with virtually no pricing power on their own routes. The only routes exempt from the Karabu agreement were new ones started by TWA after a certain point in time. TWA did not make money from 1988 until the end. The crash of TW 800 did not do much to alter TWA's final outcome, but it did ruin the best year TWA had financially after the company went private and filed for Chapter 11. TWA tried to build a new airline with the purchase of Boeing 717s in 1999, and had also placed an order for Airbus A318/A319/A320 equipment as well, to replace the aging fleet they were using. Alas, the continued pressures of competition, fuel prices and bad luck almost cost TWA. It did make it to it's 75th birthday, July 12th, 2000. Their operational efforts from 1997-2000 were among the best, so any morale boost was a good one, but again, TWA was not able to make money. On January 10, 2001, TWA announced it would go into bankruptcy again and would not be coming back. It would be acquired by American Airlines. On December 2, 2001, TWA finally said goodbye.

Being from PIT, TW has always had a significant place in my heart. It's the first airline I applied to, and it was the dominant carrier here for years, along with UA (until 1983-1985) and US. They had 75 flights a day here in 1975, along with a reservation center in downtown PIT (Chatham Center), which closed in 1982. I got most of my info from a video that was produced not long after AA purchased TW's assets.

[Edited 2006-04-06 01:16:37]


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User currently offlineVegasplanes From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 778 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (8 years 5 months 14 hours ago) and read 3983 times:

Quoting UAL#1fan (Thread starter):
Couldn't TWA have just expanded a little bit more domestically in the 1980s to weather the post-deregulation storm? From the looks of their routes and financial situation of the late 1970s, it appeared that TWA could survive and thrive after deregulation was passed.

TWA did expand domesitcally after de-reg., see Ozark acquisition to boost STL into then mega-hub for TWA. The mgmt. in the early 80's did not fare well, AA and UA expanding, not enough capital, etc. The downfall acclerated when Frank Lorenzo tried to buy the airline, the unions/employees embraced Carl Ichon instead. Somewhere along the line, 1986 or so, there was a strike that plauged the airline, along with the heavy debt-load incurred by Ichon's acquisition of the majority of the company. The downward spirial continued, LHR routes sold to AA in 1990/91 with the first BK filing. They tried in the 90's to revive the carrier. Ichon's "Caribu" agreement really killed the yields in the time period until Caribu was done. Along with the Flight 800 accident, TWA was pretty well done in, if AA hadn't bought them, 9/11 would have been the final nail in the coffin.


User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9197 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (8 years 5 months 14 hours ago) and read 3975 times:

USPIT, I have to say I am rather impressed with what you know about TW. I do have this one question. If dereg was to have virtually no impact on the airline, and if the ATC thing back in the 1970s didn't happen which put a damper on their operations out of PIT, would they have established a sizeable hub and would they have been able to compete with US at the time if that was to happen?


Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineLincoln From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 3887 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (8 years 5 months 14 hours ago) and read 3964 times:

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 1):
along with a reservation center in downtown PIT (Chatham Center),

Wow... Where were they in Chatham Center? We have a client there, and it's probably one of the few buildings outside of Cleveland that I know.

Lincoln



CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5658 posts, RR: 24
Reply 5, posted (8 years 5 months 14 hours ago) and read 3964 times:

Good afternoon, UAL#1fan;

Quoting UAL#1fan (Thread starter):
Couldn't TWA have just expanded a little bit more domestically in the 1980s to weather the post-deregulation storm?

Expansion wasn't the problem, we had one of the best route systems of all the airlines. Things that brought us down pre-Icahn was 1) TW Corp. spinning us off and not letting us keep our profit from that year or the years before. 2) A mainly widebody fleet on too many point-to-point routes. 3) Spending too much time pursuing the vacationing passengers instead of focusing on the premium international passenger.

Quoting UAL#1fan (Thread starter):
From the looks of their routes and financial situation of the late 1970s, it appeared that TWA could survive and thrive after deregulation was passed

After Icahn took control and saddling the company with millions of dollars of junk bonds, we could have still made money, IF we didn't take over Ozark and being saddling with more aging planes like the DC-9's, if Icahn didn't take the company private for his own looting. If we had spent some money upgrading our facilities and our fleet. Also, once we sold the LHR routes, the European network lost most of its luster. The two final nails in the coffin were TWA800, and the Karabu ticketing deal.



Next blog will be up on 8/30/14 around 6PM Mountain Time...check it out at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (8 years 5 months 14 hours ago) and read 3964 times:

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 3):
USPIT, I have to say I am rather impressed with what you know about TW. I do have this one question. If dereg was to have virtually no impact on the airline, and if the ATC thing back in the 1970s didn't happen which put a damper on their operations out of PIT, would they have established a sizeable hub and would they have been able to compete with US at the time if that was to happen?

Thanks. Hard to say, I actually don't have any TWA schedules from that era, but I can tell you that most of the cities TWA went to were the same as AL (USAir) had at the time. TW served CMH, DAY, IND, LAX, SFO, STL, JFK, ORD, PHL and BDL in the 70s. I did read the post about PIT-LGW on TWA the summer I was born in 1981. But knowing USAir's dramatic rise, TW probably still would've thrown in the towel, especially without a new facility. PIT was getting very, very crowded by 1983, Southeast Dock or not. TWA had all the gates in the West Dock (46-56) in the late 70s, UA had most of the gates in the East Dock (1-12), and just about everyone else was in the South Dock (AA, EA, and AL). Hopefully I'll be able to get some older timetables in the future and be able to get more info that way.

oldterminals.topcities.com is a great site to use if you're looking for info on old airports. That's how I got specific gate info on PIT in the 70s.



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (8 years 5 months 14 hours ago) and read 3956 times:

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 4):
Wow... Where were they in Chatham Center? We have a client there, and it's probably one of the few buildings outside of Cleveland that I know.

Where in Chatham Center I'm not sure, but Boyd School (my alma mater) was located there as well for many years.



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9197 posts, RR: 20
Reply 8, posted (8 years 5 months 14 hours ago) and read 3947 times:

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 6):
oldterminals.topcities.com is a great site to use if you're looking for info on old airports. That's how I got specific gate info on PIT in the 70s.

You know what, I have accessed that site myself. Some, if not all, of the pics that are on there are actually on this forum. There are several pics of US's planes from various times in the 80s with the A.net think in the lower right-hand corner of the pic. It was basically Allegheny Airlines (I guess that's why US was AL back then) and TW...



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 months 13 hours ago) and read 3939 times:

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 8):
I guess that's why US was AL back then

Yes, the code for USAir wasn't changed to US until October 1, 1988. I have a note from the guy that got the code changed. He used to work in reservations and then management with USAir. One of my teachers used to work with him.



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineMoman From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1054 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (8 years 5 months 12 hours ago) and read 3875 times:

In it's hometown of St. Louis, TWA was plagued by continuous complaining from the residents about old jets and expensive fares. Southwest was welcomed into STL as a savior. It's a 180' change from today. Today everyone in STL is sentimental about TWA and supports AA very nicely. I think they all saw what could have been back in 2003 (which is total demise of hub).


AA Platinum Member - American Airlines Forever
User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 months 12 hours ago) and read 3865 times:

Quoting Moman (Reply 10):
and supports AA very nicely

Good topic here with some super quotes from all.
My Q is...if AA is supported so well at STL, why all the "mini-jets"
instead of mainline AA?
I was told by a businessman in STL that his company flys AA but only as a second thought. That's only one point of view but there could be more with the same philosophy.
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20561 posts, RR: 62
Reply 12, posted (8 years 5 months 12 hours ago) and read 3850 times:

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 1):
TWA had a very linear route network in the 1970s. They did not develop what we now know as hubs.



Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 1):
Also, TWA's historically large presence at ORD was sold off to AA in 1992.

Just a few comments on the above. In the 1970's TWA actually operated two hubs in Missouri, a growing one in St. Louis (which is why they bought Ozark, to strengthen STL), and another scaled-down version in Kansas City. Going back to the prop days, KC was a major stopover for TWA. They also operated a hub of sorts just up the street in Chicago, and another at Kennedy.

Chicago got the axe as a hub, by losing its west coast flights somewhere around 1982. I don't know if the 1992 date was either a typo, or if you were referring to a "selling the slots" event.

If you have access to the stacks at a public library, Barron's had an extensive article a few months before the second bankruptcy that basically stated TWA would have to run at about a 95% load factor just to break even, and gave all the nuts and bolts reasons why there was another bankruptcy forthcoming, which did come a few months later in 1995.

Otherwise, lots of accurate info so far.

Cheers.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (8 years 5 months 12 hours ago) and read 3837 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 12):
Just a few comments on the above. In the 1970's TWA actually operated two hubs in Missouri, a growing one in St. Louis (which is why they bought Ozark, to strengthen STL), and another scaled-down version in Kansas City. Going back to the prop days, KC was a major stopover for TWA. They also operated a hub of sorts just up the street in Chicago, and another at Kennedy.

Chicago got the axe as a hub, by losing its west coast flights somewhere around 1982. I don't know if the 1992 date was either a typo, or if you were referring to a "selling the slots" event.

The quote about not developing hubs was from Bill Compton himself in the video I referenced at the end of the post. He was explaining that TWA was not ready for deregulation, as were a lot of airlines at that time. As for the ORD slot sell-off I got it from one of the many threads about TWA and ORD. Thanks for clarifying. Welcome to my RR list.



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineMoman From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1054 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (8 years 5 months 12 hours ago) and read 3829 times:

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 11):

My Q is...if AA is supported so well at STL, why all the "mini-jets"
instead of mainline AA?
I was told by a businessman in STL that his company flys AA but only as a second thought. That's only one point of view but there could be more with the same philosophy.

That's a good question. I once read from an "analyst" that STL had been majorly overserved by air traffic relative to it's size due to the hub and that instead of draconian cuts (plan B @ AA), AA chose to right-size to match supply and demand with a smaller hub feed.

Sure, there are lots of complaints in STL about the mini jets. AACSB moved their headquarters from STL to TPA and quoted the decline in air service as a major factor. But with many people preferring nonstop over connections, a mini-jet is a better deal than flying to ORD or DFW. Plus if the business community in STL doesn't support AA they are slashing their own wrists so to speak and will force AA to go to plan B.



AA Platinum Member - American Airlines Forever
User currently offlineKkfla737 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (8 years 5 months 11 hours ago) and read 3794 times:

TWA took a shot at a hub in Denver right after deregulation but it flopped. O'Hare lost hub status around 1982 as mentioned above, but TWA continued to operate some unique routes from Chicago to cities such as Dayton, Columbus, Newark and Kansas City (which also was axed as a hub around 1983 or 1984 just before Eastern moved in) until about 1986. TWA continued to fly from O'Hare to London Heathrow until 1991 and in 1992 sold all of its O'Hare slots to AA and retreated briefly to Midway.

User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20561 posts, RR: 62
Reply 16, posted (8 years 5 months 11 hours ago) and read 3785 times:

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 13):
As for the ORD slot sell-off I got it from one of the many threads about TWA and ORD.

Ahh, ok, I did a bit of research, and there was a slot and gate sell-off that was part of the 1992 bankruptcy, that was a different event than losing the west coast flights in 1982.

From the New York Times on June 24, 1992:

A bankruptcy judge approved a request from United Airlines to postpone until July 9 a hearing on bids for Trans World Airlines assets in Chicago. United is trying to block an earlier agreement by T.W.A. to sell 40 landing slots and three gates at Chicago O'Hare International Airport to American Airlines. That deal was scheduled to close on July 15, but United blocked the move by getting the court to agree that any airline could bid.

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 13):
Welcome to my RR list.

Cheers, thanks  Smile



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5658 posts, RR: 24
Reply 17, posted (8 years 5 months 11 hours ago) and read 3767 times:

Just out of curiosity, what was the last flight out of LHR?


Next blog will be up on 8/30/14 around 6PM Mountain Time...check it out at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20561 posts, RR: 62
Reply 18, posted (8 years 5 months 11 hours ago) and read 3758 times:

Quoting Kkfla737 (Reply 15):
TWA took a shot at a hub in Denver right after deregulation but it flopped

Boy, you guys are giving my memory a workout tonight.  Wink

7/7/79 nonstops from DEN:

BOS 2x
ORD 5x
CMH 1x
DAY 1x
IND 1x
MCI 2x
JFK 2x
EWR 1x
PIT 2x
STL 3x
SFO 3x
IAD 1x

Note: These flights weren't timed in banks for hubbing status, as the only connecting possibility was ex-SFO.

10/1/80 nonstops from DEN:

ORD 3x
COS 1x
MCI 1x
JFK 1x
PIT 1x
STL 3x
SFO 1x



International Homo of Mystery
User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20561 posts, RR: 62
Reply 19, posted (8 years 5 months 11 hours ago) and read 3734 times:

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 17):
Just out of curiosity, what was the last flight out of LHR?

I'm going to take an educated guess on this one and say TW715 to Kennedy. That was the evening flight in the early 90's. I'm welcome to be corrected on that, however.

This site:

http://twdcs.org/history.htm

... says the routes were sold to AA on July 1, 1991, but not the date of the last TWA flight out of LHR.

Reading that page brings back a lot of memories. At the time when the 747 was first introduced, TWA didn't even have a fleet-wide non-smoking section.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineKkfla737 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1033 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (8 years 5 months 11 hours ago) and read 3734 times:

If memory serves me correctly TWA was very much in a battle with AA to be #2 at ORD behind United. Delta and Republic also had large ORD operations but few connecting possibilities in the early 1980s.

User currently offlineJetdeltamsy From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 2987 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (8 years 5 months 11 hours ago) and read 3730 times:

One huge, enormous mistake was chosing St. Louis as the domestic hub. St. Louis and the surrounding region simply could not support a hub of the size they operated in St. Louis (after the merger with Ozark). They should have gone into Chicago before American got so huge there. United was never a competitor that slashed fares, and both carriers could have existed profitably. Once AA moved into Chicago, there was no room for a third major carrier. St. Louis was handicapped by its lack of runways and modern facilities. Their aircraft became the oldest fleet of any US carrier, their service mediocre and they simply lost their luster as the "airline of the stars".

The fatal blow was, in my opinion, the sale of the London Heathrow rights to American and the subsequent major pulldown of trans-Atlantic service. From that point on, TWA was in a financial tailspin. Oh sure, there were a few profitable quarters under Icahn's "Reign of Terror", but they were profits generated by the sale of assets...like LHR.

I can remember one Christmas Party in New Orleans in where I was talking with Maureen Manget, then the regional marketing manager for TWA, who told me that Icahn was "finally running TWA like a business." I walked away wondering what on Earth she was talking about. He was selling assets and downsizing TWA at an alarming rate. The writing was on the wall...TWA was not long for this world.

And I'd like to say that the "TWA merger" with American wasn't a "merger" at all. It was an asset acquisitoin. TWA would have shutdown within days if the sale had not gone through.

[Edited 2006-04-06 04:41:05]


Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
User currently offlineIsitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 22, posted (8 years 5 months 11 hours ago) and read 3724 times:

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 21):
And I'd like to say that the "TWA merger" with American wasn't a "merger" at all. It was an asset acquisitoin. TWA would have shutdown within days if the sale had not gone through.

Anyone in-the-know in the industry will agree 100 percent.
Well put!  wink  safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineWesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5658 posts, RR: 24
Reply 23, posted (8 years 5 months 10 hours ago) and read 3709 times:

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 21):
One huge, enormous mistake was chosing St. Louis as the domestic hub.

I always wonder if LAX wouldve been a good choice, but I dont know.

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 21):
TWA would have shutdown within days if the sale had not gone through.

3 days to be exact. We had 3 days if AMR didn't help us package the bankruptcy up. We had only a couple of million dollars in the till, and BARELY enough to make it through the entire 3rd day.



Next blog will be up on 8/30/14 around 6PM Mountain Time...check it out at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (8 years 5 months 10 hours ago) and read 3690 times:

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 23):
3 days to be exact. We had 3 days if AMR didn't help us package the bankruptcy up. We had only a couple of million dollars in the till, and BARELY enough to make it through the entire 3rd day.

Wow. That's sad. I remember hearing from one of my US Airways buddies in late 2000 that TWA might go bankrupt again. I just kinda shrugged it off and said "Oh well." I remember telling my dad what TW had left to integrated into AA and he was shocked. I told him all that had been already sold and again he was shocked. TWA was a big, big player in PIT for years. Everybody in PIT just figured they were always huge.



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
25 BHMNONREV : All good points sir, I'll throw in a few others, which were pre-deregulation but did not help once deregulation took place; 1) Oldest fleet of all th
26 WesternA318 : Amen to that BHMNONREV, That is one of the reasons Tillinghast and the TW Corp. Board spun off the airline, but kept everything else like Canteen, Hi
27 Milesrich : TWA made the decision to cut back ORD at the beginning of deregulation. They just couldn't compete with UA and AA. The first cut backs were to flights
28 N1120A : Private companies make money all the time, take a look at Spirit. The problem in taking TWA private was that Ichan pocketed nearly $1 billion in cash
29 WesternA318 : If we had filed for Ch. 11, none of us in management thought we had a chance at coming out. Even in Ch.11, if the bankruptcy judge did not let us tos
30 BHMNONREV : I believe your list is accurate, with the exception of STL. TW did not serve ORD-STL until after deregulation, IIRC. During the time period of the mi
31 N1120A : Karabu would have been one of the first things tossed. Besides, Ichan was most likely unsecured in the deal, so he would have been last in line for c
32 DETA737 : I don't really think it was deregulation that killed TWA so much as the bad luck of having poor management. When deregulation came about in 1978, TWA
33 Post contains images WesternA318 : On the employee side, lord knows we tried our damndest despite the Karabu deal and everything else, we just ran out of time after all had been said a
34 N1120A : One of the main reasons TWA bought all the 747s is because they really couldn't afford much of anything else. Pretty much the only way to get somethi
35 WesternA318 : And with all that money Icahn pocketed from the ORD slots and LHR deal, we could have had new A330's and as you said, paid down some debt.
36 N1120A : Or better yet, TWA wouldn't have sold those incredibly valuable slots in the first place and would have had a much higher yield and cash flow. TWA wa
37 WesternA318 : Touche, mon amie. We did a good thing by buying the MD-80's at first, but we couldve had an advantage for not only the 767-200, but also if we had or
38 N1120A : Thanks, wish I had more space on mine. Believe it or not, I was never really a huge fan of TWA growing up, always more of a United/Pan Am/PSA/AirCal
39 WesternA318 : Oh, I so agree. Since the 767's would be relatively low-cycle, high-yield doestic runs would have worked out nicely, like JFK-LAX, with say a crossbr
40 N1120A : Wouldn't have even needed ETOPS Yeah, TW could have possibly swung what United does now during the heavy summers in putting the big stuff on hub flig
41 WesternA318 : I won't delve to far into this one, but we still have a nice chunk of the A concourse in DEN that we lease out to F9. We have the potential there, al
42 N1120A : That would ruin both airlines. The main problem with airline people is that they can't seem to think in more than one direction at once. Internationa
43 WesternA318 : Absolutely, CO is not TOO unbalanced, we have the HNL/GUM co-hubs, but I'd like to see somethign grow out of either DEN or LAX, where we own the gate
44 N1120A : Actually, I think the best thing would be for NW to go the way of the dodo, with United and Continental shifting into their place. Additionally, Delt
45 WesternA318 : I agree on the MEM hub needed to be dismantled. Does NW actually make anything from it? Or we could stick with the 10-12 gates we own but lease out i
46 N1120A : Sure they do. They have FedEx's fat corporate contract to thank for that. They also know that any sort of real LCC presence there would bring fares t
47 Post contains images WesternA318 : I believe they are lease from LA World Airports, I'd have to ask around, havent dealt with anythign for LAX yet. Oh yeah... All those Purple People E
48 OzarkD9S : Icahn sold and leased those planes back for roughly the same amount he paid for Ozark. TWA was essentially "saddled" with 50 free planes and eliminat
49 Post contains images N1120A : WN would be a better idea. Didn't say anything about the town or the people Notice they were talking about what TWA acquired before the merger Except
50 Clipper471 : IIRC, TWA actually attempted to build a hub at Atlanta in the 1990's.
51 WesternA318 : These were aircraft delivered from 1983 to 1986, before the merger. LOL, neither did I!
52 Post contains images N1120A : Nice concert hall, though it might be hard to fit all my wives into it
53 WesternA318 : Don't forget, we have the best biscuits n gravy this side of the South!
54 Post contains images N1120A : Wow, two things I would never do. First, poligamy. Second, covering bisquits with artery-clogging slop that looks like it could make a baby
55 WesternA318 : LOL, you're right, you'd lose money slower by dropping it into Virgin America or Skybus... Aww, but THATS the fun part!
56 OzarkD9S : All apologies, misread that bit.
57 N1120A : Or junk bonds You don't screw up too often, so no worries
59 Post contains images Steeler83 : Or Vanilla Ice... Ice Baby or T.O.  Yeah, there's a junk bond for you... T.O. air, or anything pertaining to T.O. that would probably leave an even
60 Kkfla737 : Yup, sure did but ValuJet's success did them in and the hub was pulled in late 1994.
61 USPIT10L : J7 started in 1993, but only flew to three cities (TPA, MCO, FLL). By the end of 1994, they flew to most major markets in the Northeast, as well as F
62 WesternA318 : Honestly, I don't think TWA would have been succesful in ATL. DL was alreadya HUGE no. 1 airline, and when EA shut down, DL snapped up as many gates a
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Deregulation And Airline Labor Law posted Tue Feb 5 2002 16:16:17 by Elchanan
Richard Reid And TWA 800 Link? posted Tue Jan 22 2002 16:57:02 by KUGN
American Airlines And TWA Amalgamation posted Sat Jan 19 2002 06:22:42 by AA_Cam
American And Twa posted Sun Jul 15 2001 21:16:26 by Boeing 747-311
AA And TWA And United And US Air posted Tue May 22 2001 12:52:41 by Djmatthews