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South Africa New Zealand Links?  
User currently offlineMotorHussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 3212 posts, RR: 9
Posted (8 years 5 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2578 times:

Has anyone heard any rumours about SA and NZ codesharing links between the two countries via Australia? Any opinions? Any well informed but unofficial comments? Any wild speculation?

Both NZ and SA are members of Star Alliance now and presumably will go head-to-head with QF so will need each others back-up.

Regards
MH


come visit the south pacific
10 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9661 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (8 years 5 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2567 times:

I think JNB-AKL would be a difficult route. I can't imagine that there is enough demand for that route. New Zealand is a small country and AKL is 7500 miles away from JNB. While it is a bit out of the way, I would expect traffic to be connected through Australia. Sure NZ could try to feed a flight to JNB from AKL, but I just don't see enough routes that could give much traffic. People aren't going to go SYD-AKL-JNB since AKL is in the wrong direction.

It is a great idea to connect two Star Alliance partners, but down in the Southern Hemisphere it is difficult to connect all the dots.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineAussieindc From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 437 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 5 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2563 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 1):
It is a great idea to connect two Star Alliance partners, but down in the Southern Hemisphere it is difficult to connect all the dots.

Especially if SA are codesharing on the QF metal from SYD-JNB and vice versa on the PER-JNB routes (or has something changed of late?).

The only way I see it working would be SA introducing NZ as a codeshare partner on the PER-JNB route with SA metal and SA codeshare on the AKL-PER route on NZ metal.

Otherwise, Star Alliance members would be having to go up from AKL through SIN onto JNB on NZ/SQ.


User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9661 posts, RR: 52
Reply 3, posted (8 years 5 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2559 times:

Quoting Aussieindc (Reply 2):
Otherwise, Star Alliance members would be having to go up from AKL through SIN onto JNB on NZ/SQ.

How many people even fly between New Zealand and South Africa? Is it really that many. New Zealand is a tiny country and although it has big tourism, that is mostly from the United States and Japan with other groups from many countries, but still I can't imagine operating a route with anything larger than a 787, but will the 787 have ETOPS problems on a route like that?



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineIbhayi From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 5 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2554 times:

There are a few hundred thousand expat South African's living in New Zealand.

User currently offlineMotorHussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 3212 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (8 years 5 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2488 times:

Quoting Ibhayi (Reply 4):
There are a few hundred thousand expat South African's living in New Zealand.

Ibhayi thanks for that info.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 3):
How many people even fly between New Zealand and South Africa? Is it really that many.

Well in 2003 South Africa received 16,387 visitors from New Zealand (and this figure was tracking to have increased dramatically in the subsequent years). For 2003, it was the equivalent of 315 people a week or one 777-200ER in NZ's configuration and that was without any direct airlinks.

Source: http://www.gauteng.net/research/pdf/sa_portfolio.pdf

This year, New Zealand is anticipating 24,500 visitors from South Africa or 471+ passengers a week. More than a 747-400.

Source: http://www.alpinemedia.co.nz/PDFs/International%20visitor%20forercast.pdf

But most importantly, there were 71,687 visitors from Australia or 1,378 visitors a week in 2003. New Zealand and Australia are essentially one avaiation market; NZ or QF can offer through traffic from each others home ports. A flight going AKL-MEL-JNB will be able to drop off and pick up passengers in MEL (or SYD or PER if that's where the flights transit).

Also, New Zealand and South Africa have common cultural and sporting affinities as well as an increasing amount of trade and commerce. Travel between the two nations is increasing across both leisure and business markets.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 3):
New Zealand is a tiny country and although it has big tourism, that is mostly from the United States and Japan with other groups from many countries

Actually our closest neighbour Australia is by far our largest and most important inbound visitor source. The U.K. comes second with the U.S. and Japan trailing followed by South Korea then China (which is growing rapidly with direct AKL-PVG flights commencing soon with NZ and daily 744 flights to HKG) in October.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 1):
It is a great idea to connect two Star Alliance partners, but down in the Southern Hemisphere it is difficult to connect all the dots.

Agreed, but a lot is already happening with:

Lan-Chile flying SCL-AKL-SYD four times weekly.
Aerolineas Argentinas flying EZE-AKL-SYD three times weekly.
Qantas flying SYD-JNB five weekly flights.
South African between PER-JNB five times weekly.
Varig flies between Sao Paulo and JNB and CPT.
Malaysian links JNB, CPT and EZE.

If Star Alliance partners start working together and consolidating a southern newtwork, it will work for them IMHO.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 3):
but still I can't imagine operating a route with anything larger than a 787, but will the 787 have ETOPS problems on a route like that?

I think the A340-300 and the 777-200ER are the options currently as the 787 isn't around for a while, but there appears to be a case for the former two or at least NZ and SA working together to co-ordinate their flights via PER, SYD and possibly MEL to get a jump on QF.


Regards
MH

[Edited 2006-04-07 01:54:24]

[Edited 2006-04-07 01:55:11]

[Edited 2006-04-07 01:58:02]


come visit the south pacific
User currently offlineBroocy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2420 times:

I think it would be wise for NZ to investigate, and I am sure that they have.

I know that the SYD-JNB is very complex in flight planning because it's a long route into heavy head-winds over very isolated parts. It often seems to leave a little late, as I remember reading in one of the local reputable Aviation mags, because of all the last minute calculations and the not uncommon event of freight being offloaded to get the numbers right.

NZ is further from SA and even more challenging for flight planners. I know SAA looked at a CPT-CHC route right over the south pole, but there was a black spot of about 30 minutes in the middle of the flight where, if anything was to happen eg engine failure or pressure loss not even a 744 could make it safely to any port.

Through no fault of their own, I think people often get a skewed idea of how isolated and how much water is in this part of the world as most maps seem to cut Anarctica off and have the equator about 2/3's down the map instead of in the middle. These maps also make Greenland look bigger than South America. There just aren't the alternatives that exist for high lattitide travel that exist in the Northern Hemisphere.


User currently offline767ER From Australia, joined Apr 2001, 1092 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2411 times:

I doubt NZ can honestly justify flying to JNB - there just isn't the demand. QH yes, NZ no

I actually flew SQ in 2003 on J and what a flight! NZ WLG AKL SYD then SYD SIN JNB CPT. Thank goodness I flew J on the SQ sectors as I would have felt like death had i gone Y.The return sector was not as bad as i only had to fly CPT JNB SIN SYD.

Shame SAA don't fly SYD JNB.



Aircraft flown:F27,Viscount. EMB120, SAAB340, ATR70, 737-200.737-300,DC8, DC10,747-100,747-200,747-300,747-400, A320, A3
User currently offlineMotorHussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 3212 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2401 times:

Quoting 767ER (Reply 7):
Shame SAA don't fly SYD JNB.

Well surely they're going to have to think about it now that they're part of Star?!



come visit the south pacific
User currently offlineCXA330300 From South Africa, joined May 2004, 1563 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2382 times:

I'd think that SA would start a JNB-SYD route in the near future. In the meantime, NZ-SA passengers can connect in Perth.

Quoting Ibhayi (Reply 4):
There are a few hundred thousand expat South African's living in New Zealand.

Its actually much lower-the NZ government estimates about 50,000.



The sky is the limit as long as you can stay there
User currently offlineZK-NBT From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 5344 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2330 times:

Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 8):
Shame SAA don't fly SYD JNB.

Well surely they're going to have to think about it now that they're part of Star?!

They will continue to codeshare with QF on SYD-JNB and QF will continue to codeshare on PER-JNB operated by SA.

I have heard of NZ and SA setting up something through PER, for that to happen NZ need to retime their PER flights, and also the plan was to connect to from North America to PER on NZ.

Heres a rough schedule maybe very tight though.

NZ1/7 LAX/SFO-AKL 0530A
NZ175 AKL 0630 PER 0900
SA281 PER-JNB 1200D

SA280 JNB-PER 0900A
NZ176 PER 1015 AKL 2130
NZ2 AKL-LAX 2300D

Only really probably works in NZ summer, winter NZ departs at 2145, to tight really.


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