Tango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3777 posts, RR: 30 Posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2498 times:
In looking through my Pan Am and Trans World/TWA timetables covering the years 1970-1991, I noticed that neither airline operated PHL-LHR (and return) non-stop from 1970 until sometime after 1986. The first timetable of either airline in which I find PHL-LHR and LHR-PHL non-stops is the Sept. 1989 edition of TWA. Looks like the service was continued by TWA until the takeover of TWA's LHR routes by American Airlines in 1992.
Was PHL-LHR (and return) non-stop by TWA the result of new route authority for a U.S. carrier... or did PHL-LHR replace LHR route authority from another U.S. city... or did TWA pick-up previously dormant authority for a U.S. airline to fly PHL-LHR non-stop?
Anyone have the date (after 1986) TWA started flying PHL-LHR and LHR-PHL non-stop? Before TWA started this route, were BOAC/British Airways the only carrier holding authority to operate LHR-PHL and PHL-LHR non-stops?
BHMNONREV From Australia, joined Aug 2003, 1330 posts, RR: 4 Reply 1, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2471 times:
Well, I can't tell you about after 1986 but TW DID fly PHL-LHR-FRA in Nov/Dec of 1978 with a Boeing 707. If you have a timetable from that period, this flight should be on it. I can't recall if TW was awarded the initial authority or picked up dormant rights from another carrier. Service was to and from the old "barn" International Terminal on the east side of PHL. Remember when leaving PHL there was a BA 747 and an LH 707 parked there as well.
This was TWA's first time back in FRA since the route swap with PanAm in the mid-70's, where TW gave up Frankfurt and PA gave up Paris...
Ss278 From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 62 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2471 times:
TWA began flying PIT-PHL-LHR and return in July, 1969. The flight continued throughout the 1970's, though in the winter months until 1975 it was reduced to three times per week and only operated PHL-LHR and return. It was Flight 756 and operated with Boeing 707 equipment. It became an L1011 in the 1980's.
American did not acquire TWA's PHL-LHR route. It, along with BWI-LHR went to US Air, but because of the restrictions of operating at Heathrow, (only two U.S. carriers allowed) the authority was transferred to Gatwick.
Crownvic From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1726 posts, RR: 6 Reply 4, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2415 times:
Tango-Bravo...I really do not know what you maybe looking at, but the other posts are correct. Flt 755/756 operated for many years between PHL-LHR. Services were slightly curtailed during the winter months. While Ss278 seems to know what he is talking about, I do believe the service operated way before this with Constellation equipment through Gander. It also interesting to note that this was one of the last "straight pipe" 707-331 routes for TWA. Although the turbo-jet versions burned more than the fan-jets, it was noticed that on long range cruise flight, the difference was minimal, so TWA kept aircraft like this on the longer range routes up until the end. Although I am not positive, I recall that the fan-jets actually never went onto this route, but it transitioned directly into an L-1011. If memory serves me correctly, Pan Am also flew this route in the early 1960's with DC-8 & 707 equipment.
BHMNONREV From Australia, joined Aug 2003, 1330 posts, RR: 4 Reply 5, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2386 times:
Quoting Crownvic (Reply 4): It also interesting to note that this was one of the last "straight pipe" 707-331 routes for TWA. Although the turbo-jet versions burned more than the fan-jets, it was noticed that on long range cruise flight, the difference was minimal, so TWA kept aircraft like this on the longer range routes up until the end. Although I am not positive, I recall that the fan-jets actually never went onto this route
Was not aware of that fact, but I know the two flights I took into/out of PHL were both fan-jets. Flew many TW 707-131 and 331's fan-jet flights over the years, never got to experience the turbo-jet..
Tango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3777 posts, RR: 30 Reply 6, posted (7 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2369 times:
Thanks for your replies. After going back to my TWA timetables covering 1970-1989 (at varying intervals of 1-5 years) I discovered I had indeed missed PHL-LHR non-stop service shown in some. I also noticed that most of my TWA timetables from these years are Winter months editions where PHL to LHR is, in most, shown as 1-stop service with a "%" symbol following the flight number to denote "plane change enroute." The non-stop PHL-LHR flights I had missed were mostly from Summer months timetables, which seems to indicate a fairly consistent seasonal pattern of PHL-LHR flight routings of non-stop during peak and "shoulder" (Spring and Fall) months, 1-stop with plane change enroute during off-peak months.
In the July 3, 1970 edition, no PHL-LHR is shown, which must have been prior to the PA/TW route swap alluded to in reply #1; in my Pan Am timetable from 1974, PHL-LHR service is 1-stop same plane via JFK which would seem to indicate that TW picked up PHL-LHR from PA sometime in 1974 or 1975.
Quoting Ss278 (Reply 2): American did not acquire TWA's PHL-LHR route. It, along with BWI-LHR went to US Air, but because of the restrictions of operating at Heathrow, (only two U.S. carriers allowed) the authority was transferred to Gatwick.
Interestingly, TWA operated BWI-LGW non-stop and return (never BWI-LHR as far as I know) for a time -- even while LHR was their main London base, before the sale of their LHR routes to AA. The first example of BWI-LGW-BWI found in my TWA timetables is in the Sept. 1989 edition; the next timetable in my collection, effective June 1, 1991, also shows BWI-LGW-BWI (even while TW continued serving LHR non-stop from BOS, LAX, JFK and PHL). In TWA's June 1, 1992 timetable, BWI-LGW-BWI is gone (as are all LHR routes) -- must have been the point in time by which USAir had taken over BWI-LGW-BWI.
Tango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3777 posts, RR: 30 Reply 9, posted (7 years 8 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2025 times:
Quoting CWAFlyer (Reply 8): I don't have anymore old TWA timetables, but didn't they also operate
PHL-LGW? I think that got sold with the BWI-LGW routes to USAIR.
Based on what I find in my Sept.1989, June 1991 and June 1992 TWA timetables, I would say no to the first question and maybe, maybe not, to the second part of the quote above.
In their 1989 and '91 timetables, TWA shows PHL-LHR and return. The 1992 timetable (after AA had replaced TWA as one of the two U.S. airlines allowed to serve LHR) shows no service from PHL to London; in fact the only London service for TWA in the '92 timetable is STL-LGW and return.
The 1989 and '91 TWA timetables have BWI-LGW and return, but the '92 edition does not.
Which causes me to surmise that TWA never flew PHL-LGW; perhaps they simply decided against operating the route and included their PHL-LGW authority with the sale (to USAir) of BWI-LGW, the latter of which which TWA actually had operated, albeit for only a few years. Or perhaps the respective route authorities held by TWA were sold to USAir in completely seperate transactions at different times.