Sq212 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 272 posts, RR: 0 Posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 12504 times:
Came across an article from Bloomberg:
Couple of excerpts:
``Having gone to the trouble of designing a new tail, and introducing a lot of new composites, and everything else, they might as well go the whole way and design a whole new fuselage as well instead of using something old,'' Singapore Airlines CEO Chew Choon Seng said in an interview today in Zurich, where he was attending a Star Alliance event. ```It would make it more directly competitive with the 787.''
``We still have an open mind,'' Chew said today. ``It's not so much price, but it's a question of the economics, and what each manufacturer would stand by and guarantee in terms of delivery.'' If Airbus does redesign the A350, he said, that might put the aircraft price ``in a whole new ballpark, so it's a bit sticky.''
FlyingHippo From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 644 posts, RR: 1 Reply 1, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 12364 times:
I think Airbus needs to listen to its customers... Two of the most respected airline players (ILFC, SQ) has made this suggestion now.
LifelinerOne From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 1880 posts, RR: 8 Reply 2, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 12338 times:
It's just as the man said. It's all about economics and after that the price of an aircraft. We already know from the QANTAS tender that the planes are very competitive and well matched against each others. Singapore Airlines also understands that designing a new fuselage would make the A350 more expensive, which would make the tender a whole different ballgame.
Still, I think this is order is for Boeing. But it's nice to see the CEO keeping an open mind.
JeffB From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 98 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 12338 times:
ILFC saying they need a redesign is one thing. But a paying customer that actually flies, supports, and maintains the planes saying they need a redesign? Wow!
FlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15 Reply 4, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 12262 times:
I dunno, their current management is pretty arrogant. They'll brush it off.
Remember when Airbus said A330 was good enough to compete with 787? Then they wanted to make A330-lite, a modified A330 with weight savings. Then airlines forced their hand to make A350. Now they say A350 isn't good enough. Poor Airbus.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
Lumberton From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 4708 posts, RR: 21 Reply 6, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 12189 times:
Airbus is certainly getting lots of advice lately. Too bad none of it comes with money! Its good of Messrs U-H, Chew, et. al, (and, of course, all of us here at a.net) to tell Airbus what their next course of action is going to be, but are they willing to order a couple hundred of the "new & improved" A350 sight unseen? Of course not! As for Airbus, they've got some competing demands right now for cash, and a lot on their plate. A complete re-design of the A350 is a momentus strategic and financial decision. Throw in the need to purchase BAE's shares, and this whole issue gets much more complex. Personally, I don't know what the best course is here.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
KL808 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1573 posts, RR: 2 Reply 7, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 12189 times:
Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 4): I dunno, their current management is pretty arrogant.
I don't think so.
Remember Airbus doesn't need to sell a boat load of these to break even. Even if Airbus only gets a 1/3 of the market, they would have made a good return on their investment.
By keeping costs to a minimum, Airbus saves money, and be able to design a new airframe in a couple of years, which would be up to par or even better than the B787.
SQ order would be very beneficial for Airbus, without it though it can still survive. Remember Airbus doesn't need to sell a lot of A350's to break even.
BoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 12154 times:
Thanks for the link. This also caught my eye:
Quote: Aboulafia said EADS is now under double financial pressure because a redesign of the A350 might cost the airline several billion dollars, and EADS also needs to come up with cash to purchase BAE's minority stake in Airbus.
"It's not just paying for a new plane,'' Aboulafia said. "It's paying for BAE's share of the company as well. They've got serious financial pressure on them.'' BAE's 20 percent holding is valued at 3.5 billion euros ($4.3 billion) in EADS's books though the final price to be paid by EADS to BAE will be subject to negotiation.
In addition, DaimlerChrysler announced earlier this week it would sell off 7.5 percent of its 30 percent stake in EADS.
PlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4539 posts, RR: 28 Reply 9, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 12126 times:
Is it possible that some insiders at Airbus are actually encouraging these comments? Perhaps this is the only way to "force" a redesign, since if they were to do it now without this sort of public "feedback" they would look very bad?
Sounds kinda silly considering we're talking about a huge, experienced entity, but short of this sort of commentary by ILFC, SQ et al, there wouldn't appear to be a good enough reason to start over.
Jacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 61 Reply 10, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 12126 times:
Quoting LifelinerOne (Reply 2): It's just as the man said. It's all about economics and after that the price of an aircraft. We already know from the QANTAS tender that the planes are very competitive and well matched against each others. Singapore Airlines also understands that designing a new fuselage would make the A350 more expensive, which would make the tender a whole different ballgame.
IIRC, the Boeing jets are cheaper than the corresponding Airbus planes....if Airbus had to redevelop the A350, it would definitely add cost of each frame and add a few extra years...
Quoting Lumberton (Reply 6): Airbus is certainly getting lots of advice lately. Too bad none of it comes with money! Its good of Messrs U-H, Chew, et. al, (and, of course, all of us here at a.net) to tell Airbus what their next course of action is going to be, but are they willing to order a couple hundred of the "new & improved" A350 sight unseen? Of course not!
Sllevin From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 3376 posts, RR: 6 Reply 11, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 12082 times:
Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 8): In addition, DaimlerChrysler announced earlier this week it would sell off 7.5 percent of its 30 percent stake in EADS.
Not at all. DCX is actually looking to prop up their financal results after a lackluster period of European sales and wants to book the profit, even if it's a one-time boost.
No different than GM selling Fuji (Subaru) to help take the edge off their losses.
Hamlet69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2657 posts, RR: 59 Reply 12, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 12048 times:
Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 8): In addition, DaimlerChrysler announced earlier this week it would sell off 7.5 percent of its 30 percent stake in EADS.
Are they jumping from a sinking ship?
No. The selloff was planned some time ago. The only thing that has changed was the timing. Originally, it was scheduled to happen after the A380 went into service. The delay in EIS probably changed things.
YVRtoYYZ From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 633 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 12048 times:
From the article:
Airbus's A350s are now priced at $170 million to $190 million each, depending on the model, while Boeing's 787 has a catalog price of between $142 million and $150 million, depending on the model.
Although Boeing has much higher developments costs in relations to the A350, they are still able to offer a product that remains cheaper than their competitor.
Jacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 61 Reply 14, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 12007 times:
Quoting YVRtoYYZ (Reply 13):
Airbus's A350s are now priced at $170 million to $190 million each, depending on the model, while Boeing's 787 has a catalog price of between $142 million and $150 million, depending on the model.
Slz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 11972 times:
What I find interesting to see is that so many people speak out on what Airbus should absolutely do with their A350 design, as if they almost find it a pity to see the A350 comes so close to the 787, but then falls short of beating it....
I think all this talk about the A350 says a lot about the 787 too actually!
From several comments (QF, SU, ILFC) it should be clear the CASM of both planes is projected to be very similar and a wider fuselage is what most airlines would want to see to make them select the A350 over the 787.
After all the discussions on A.net on just how more 'advanced' the 787 is going to be in comparison to the AL-Li A350 and how much better that definitely is, I get a feeling the industry at large is not overly convinced by all the tooted benefits a composite fuselage is supposed to bring them and from their numerous remarks on the A350 I get the feeling they'd be very willing to settle for a more conventional plane like the A350 any day, if only it would be as wide as the 787. This somewhat more conservative approach would make sense too BTW as it is historically enshrined in the aviation industry: if the economic benefits of an innovation are not extremely convincing, then this innovation is looked upon more as a risk than an opportunity and it seems the AL-LI fuselage of the A350 has the potential to make the composite fuselage of the 787 look like a risk, rather than an opportunity, but for its width.
The 787 is definitely seen as a very fine plane, innovative in many domains, but possibly also somewhat overhyped and many professionals from within the industry seem to believe Airbus can very well beat it with a wider A350. Whether Airbus will decide to do so or not, remains to be seen, but what is already clear is that the 787s future is not in its own hands anymore, but in those of Airbus: the sooner they'll come up with a wider A350, the smaller the success of the 787 will turn out to be. Interesting times.
Quoting KL808 (Reply 7): Even if Airbus only gets a 1/3 of the market, they would have made a good return on their investment. By keeping costs to a minimum, Airbus saves money, and be able to design a new airframe in a couple of years, which would be up to par or even better than the B787.
Indeed, I think whatever Airbus does to the A350, it will be a well considered and calculated decision which will maximize their OWN revenues, WITHOUT looking at what it might mean to the 787 or Boeing as a whole.
David_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7144 posts, RR: 14 Reply 16, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 11914 times:
Wouldn't it be funny if Airbus called SQ's bluff by saying they'd do what they want in return for a guaranteed mimumum order of at least 20 units and that SQ should pay "compensation" for delayed deliveries to all the airlines that have ordered the "infererior" A350 already?
AndesSMF From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 11914 times:
Quoting KL808 (Reply 7): Remember Airbus doesn't need to sell a boat load of these to break even. Even if Airbus only gets a 1/3 of the market, they would have made a good return on their investment.
Maybe, because once it becomes recognized that you are buying second best, residual values for the airplane will go to the basement. Remember the MD-90.
Quoting KL808 (Reply 7): By keeping costs to a minimum, Airbus saves money, and be able to design a new airframe in a couple of years, which would be up to par or even better than the B787.
Yes they could, but in a couple of years you will have more airlines ordering and using the 787, which will not need replacement for several decades. Airbus could miss the current replacement cycle.
Quoting KL808 (Reply 7): SQ order would be very beneficial for Airbus, without it though it can still survive. Remember Airbus doesn't need to sell a lot of A350's to break even.
Yes it will be beneficial, but now SQ is 'suggesting' Airbus redesign the airplane, which could delay the project even more. And the better question is whether SQ is willing to wait several more years for their airplane. Airbus cannot make the A350 just equal to the 787 if they plan on introducing it later. They have to make it much better so that airlines are willing to wait.
JeffB From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 98 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 11914 times:
Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 8): Are they jumping from a sinking ship?
NO! NO! NO! NO! NO!
They are just hitting some rough chop and those parties that would like to see them fail are piling on. Airbus will be fine!!
Commavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 10191 posts, RR: 62 Reply 19, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 11867 times:
Airbus (and the A350) are not having a good week. I think the most striking bit of information from the article was that:
Airbus's A350s are now priced at $170 million to $190 million each, depending on the model, while Boeing's 787 has a catalog price of between $142 million and $150 million, depending on the model.
I never realized before that Airbus' base asking price for its A350 is actually $20M more than Boeing's max list price for its 787. If virtually everyone who has looked at these two planes objectively (i.e., not Boeing or Airbus) says that the A350 just doesn't have the economics the 787 does, how does Airbus think it is going to get $20M more per plane?
Or is that just a reflection of Airbus' ability to discount more heavily for reasons already discussed here many times?
JeffB From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 98 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 11867 times:
Quoting David_itl (Reply 16): Wouldn't it be funny if Airbus called SQ's bluff by saying they'd do what they want in return for a guaranteed mimumum order of at least 20 units and that SQ should pay "compensation" for delayed deliveries to all the airlines that have ordered the "infererior" A350 already?
You joking, right? Please say that's just sarcasm?!?!?
Wouldn't it be funny if Airbus(or Boeing, or Embraer) made such a suggestion and SQ told Airbus to go jump off a tall bridge? If any manufacturer tried that stunt w/ a customer like SQ.. well... that'd be the end of that relationship!
Jacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 61 Reply 21, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 11830 times:
Quoting Slz396 (Reply 15): The 787 is definitely seen as a very fine plane, innovative in many domains, but possibly also somewhat overhyped and many professionals from within the industry seem to believe Airbus can very well beat it with a wider A350. Whether Airbus will decide to do so or not, remains to be seen, but what is already clear is that the 787s future is not in its own hands anymore, but in those of Airbus: the sooner they'll come up with a wider A350, the smaller the success of the 787 will turn out to be. Interesting times.
your forgetting that it just isn't the weight saving...there are a lot of other values also......the time it will take to build the plane will probably faster, and look at the price of the plane (yes, I got it figured out..hehe)...the Airbus plane is much more exensive than its competing Boeing plane, which is usually the other way around!
Personally, I think once both planes are flying...it will turn out to be another B777 versus A340 situation, where the 787 will beat the A350 hands down in economics.....
BoomBoom From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 22, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 11791 times:
Quoting KL808 (Reply 7): Even if Airbus only gets a 1/3 of the market, they would have made a good return on their investment. Remember Airbus doesn't need to sell a lot of A350's to break even.
Depends on what they sell them for. If they have to heavily discount the break even number gets much higher.
Quoting KL808 (Reply 7): By keeping costs to a minimum, Airbus saves money, and be able to design a new airframe in a couple of years, which would be up to par or even better than the B787.
So they spend $5 billion now only to turn around and spend another $10 billion + in a couple of years to get the plane they should have built in the first place. It starts to add up to REAL money!
Travelin man From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3311 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 11688 times:
I think if your big customers are telling you to do something, you do it. They have no reason to bad-mouth the current A350, other than they want to see a competitive plane.
Unlike the posters here at a.net, these people are decision-makers in AIRCRAFT PURCHASING. Does anyone here actually think that after those comments SQ would actually purchase the current version of the A350?
Their CEO would look like an idiot for purchasing an aircraft he says needs to be redesigned.
BlueSky1976 From Poland, joined Jul 2004, 1708 posts, RR: 4 Reply 24, posted (7 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 11662 times:
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 9): Is it possible that some insiders at Airbus are actually encouraging these comments?
I wouldn't be surprised if it's Leahy... I believe he's in "new plane from scratch" fraction, while the French are in "updated A330" one...
Quoting Slz396 (Reply 15): After all the discussions on A.net on just how more 'advanced' the 787 is going to be in comparison to the AL-Li A350 and how much better that definitely is, I get a feeling the industry at large is not overly convinced by all the tooted benefits a composite fuselage is supposed to bring them and from their numerous remarks on the A350 I get the feeling they'd be very willing to settle for a more conventional plane like the A350 any day, if only it would be as wide as the 787. This somewhat more conservative approach would make sense too BTW as it is historically enshrined in the aviation industry: if the economic benefits of an innovation are not extremely convincing, then this innovation is looked upon more as a risk than an opportunity and it seems the AL-LI fuselage of the A350 has the potential to make the composite fuselage of the 787 look like a risk, rather than an opportunity, but for its width.
That's a very valid point. After all, the composite technology on the scale of 787 is an unproven one and I wouldn't be surprised to see a few glitches come up here and there. Boeing did have a composite manufacturing problem in the past, hopefully they are worked out now. On the other hand though, being able to squeeze in 9-abreast configuration with 737-width seats, Boeing can spread the trip cost among more passenger, therefore lowering the CASM... In my opinion, the fuselage redesign would only benefit Airbus in the long run, just the way "sit and wait" course of action by Boeing with 777 did: it turned out to be far superior to MD-11 first and A340. What Airbus needs to do in order to beat Boeing is to come up with a lighter, more aerodynamically efficient fuselage and take Embraer approach to cabin comfort. The key to it is beating 787's CASM in both 8 and 9-abreast seating with proven 2+4+2 layout.
26 LifelinerOne: It's just that, a list price. I think there are few airlines around who actually paid the list price, either with Boeing or Airbus. However, with Boe
27 Jacobin777: they already have 7 fuselage barrels ready to roll and we really haven't heard of any production glitches....so hopefully that issue will be a non-st
28 OldAeroGuy: You will be able to make this argument hold together if: a) a major customer like SQ, EK, LH, BA or AF orders the A350 and b) QR firms up their order
29 Par13del: Quoting Slz396 "After all the discussions on A.net on just how more 'advanced' the 787 is going to be in comparison to the AL-Li A350 and how much bet
30 BoeingBus: I wonder what would an all new design do to the economics? The A350, if it does go wider, would still not be all composite as Airbus signed long term
31 Atmx2000: They would probably need to redesign the wing as well.
32 787engineer: I think it would take more than a few years. When (not if) the current A350 hits the market I think that's what Airbus will stick with and it'll be a
33 Jacobin777: epennage and all also....basically it would be a clean sheet design plane...
34 Airways45: Airbus isn't stupid. They may appear stubborn, but I am expecting some annoucement by Farnborough in the summer. At the moment, Airbus needs to hold o
35 BlueSky1976: Not necessary true. Look the way 777-200LR/-300ER turned out vs. A340-500/-600... They are lighter, even though their fuselages are wider.
36 Katekebo: Quoting Airways45 Not likely, taking into account original reaction (for example, saying that the A330 is good enough, etc.), and accepting offers for
37 Atmx2000: The 777LR and A340NG's are aimed at the same capacity points, with the 777LR having 9Y as standard and the A340NG having 8Y as standard, with 777LR m
38 Airways45: Of course, another problem for Airbus is that Boeing is replacing a late 1970s design (757/767) whereas Airbus is being encouraged to replace a late 1
39 Stitch: I too believe people may be reading to much into these announcements. SQ operates two Airbus models (counting the A380 when it arrives) in quanities
40 Ken777: If I recall correctly SQ was moving towards the 7E7 when Airbus ran in and basically said, Wait! Don't order the 7E7 because we are coming up with so
41 Leelaw: " Having gone to the trouble of designing a new tail, and introducing a lot of new composites, and everything else, they might as well go the whole wa
42 Zvezda: Actually, 9 B787 fuselage sections have already been produced. http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...ory/0,20867,18734235-23349,00.html
43 Jacobin777: I don't think anyone says Airbus is "stupid", but history is bombarded by bad business decisions.........in fact, look no further than Boeing of 10 y
44 Singapore_Air: Leelaw, our dear Mr. Chew is hardly a "silly man"! Anyway, I would contend that we can rule out at least one thing from all this. The comments were no
45 Antares: CS is decidedly not a fool. Is it possible he knows something we don't? Such as a strong internal push at Airbus to defer the program and bring in a d
46 BoeingBus: Agreed... he is actually looking for a more competitive A350 to get better pricing out of Boeing. Boeing has the better product right now and I am wi
47 Slz396: I think you're right on the money here! Singapore Airlines, like any airline probably, likes the CASM of the 787, but seem to be worried by the doubl
48 Singapore_Air: You make some very good comments. However, with respect, SIA does not have the luxury, nor the time to be fearful. Obviously due diligence is a given
49 Thorny: That's because the 787 is, as they say, a "game changer", owing to its heritage in the radically different Sonic Cruiser project. The A320 was a more
50 Atmx2000: OK, this is a load of crap. Can you point to anything said by SQ and IFLC (who has already ordered 787s) that they are concerned about composites or
51 Slz396: Care to give the reasoning behind this damning conclusion? I am sorry to say, but I'd like to see you actually make your case like I tried to do. Onl
52 Gunsontheroof: Based on total orders and recent customer feedback, I think it's safe to remove the quotations.
53 PVD757: I think what everyone is forgetting with this A vs B debate is that Boeing has a new technology base to improve their next generation aircraft. Some m
54 Atmx2000: CASM on the 787-9 is should be lower: more seat, lighter and has greater range. Most likely they were comparing the -8 to the A358, which Airbus has
55 Stitch: I do not believe that is the case, overall, though it appears to be the case for the small-to-mid-sized widebody market (763/764/A332/A333/772/A342/A
56 BoomBoom: Where did Singapore say this? You just made this up. So how do you explain that the first three years of 787 production are sold out? You made this u
57 Jacobin777: damn..I'm getting behind within one week...... do you have source for this, according to the article, the Boeing jets are much cheaper.. " Airbus's A
58 11Bravo: Very carefully indeed,...or if you're really drunk, you can see the same deep meaning between the lines,...or if you're an Airbus cheerleader whose t
59 Cruiser: Sounds like a huge dig at Airbus and the A380 delays. James
60 Jacobin777: my thoughts exactly.... at the end of the day, I think SQ will go with the 787 and hopefully the 748 also
61 MD-90: Douglas tried that with cheap planes and couldn't make money. I've read statements by both Airbus and Boeing that neither one of them would be very p
62 Lehpron: While I think this doesn't 'look good' for Airbus, do those carriers represent the whole of A350 orders? If they haven't ordered yet, then well, unle
63 Aither: How many airlines opted for 9 abreast configurations ?
65 JayinKitsap: The 777 is a larger diameter plane however, it has similar weights to the A340. In fact if you look at the 772LR is OEW is 41.78% of MTOW, while the b
66 AvObserver: I suggest, Slz396, that you elaborate by posting the speific comments you refer to, along with a line-by-line analysis of what you're reading into. F
67 Aither: Airbus has experience with composites. The A380 is using largest pieces of composites, the A400M is using composite wings too.
68 Aither: Funny to see that in the end, it seems many big airlines want a more efficient 777/340. They have asked Boeing to develop the 787-10 to compete with t
69 N328KF: What you say is true, but there must be some reason why Airbus is unwilling to use this, in the one place they really need it.
70 Aither: The reason is the cost/benefit. As they said (and this somehow backed up by some airlines comments) using the composites only where they bring the mo
71 N328KF: Yes, if they apply composites to their existing methods and derivatives of existing airframes. But if they underwent an all-new platform, then surely
72 Kanebear: As SQ does, so watcheth the industry. Let's face it. SQ is an airline in a leadership position. They've been launch customers and/or taken early deliv
73 N328KF: The problem is that Boeing appears to be just as ready on the narrowbody market as Airbus is.
74 Atmx2000: If Boeing made a 787 with the same cabin length as the A358, they would have a 11t to 12t advantage in OEW despite having a wider fuselage. I would t
75 Aither: My bet is many of these would have been 787-10 if it had been proposed earlier.
76 N328KF: That's silly. If anything, those orders would have been for the 787-9. The 787-3 doesn't compare, and the 787-9 is closer to what is available for th
77 Cruiser: Why then did QF just recently firm up their commitment with -8's & -9's? Surely they could have asked Boeing to announce their orders in conjunction
78 Uh60ftrucker: I am really growing tired of this argument. Numerous people have said something along the lines of: "Airbus doesn't need to sell as many airframes as
79 11Bravo: My bet is that Boeing would be more than happy to work with customers that would like to switch.
80 Jacobin777: might have been true before, but the carriers which have purchased, or going to purchase the 787 has spoken volumes....SQ doesn't command the respect
81 Atmx2000: Then why is the A358 doing better than the A359? And why is the A332 selling better than the A333? Could it be airlines want range over size? I think
82 Art: Isn't this a truism in aviation? Isn't the 787's weight advantage of several tonnes over the A350 an insuperable obstacle for the A350's economics?
83 N328KF: It's similar to how any move to improve the A340 (A345E/A346E) to compete with the 777 could easily be negated and surpassed by similar improvements
84 Jacobin777: I think the proof of the pudding will be in the eating, and when there is a comparison between the B787 and A350 (once both are flying of course), it
85 Iwok: Very very true. In fact, this was alluded to by U-H earlier this week. There are probably some interesting "discussions" going on at Airbus right now
86 Joni: Your foresight is spectacular. QF, SQ and others have said the economics are very close but apparently they don't have access to your sources.
87 BoogyJay: Are you serious? I don't think they'd want the A350 to be the ultimate aircraft, i.e. a product which is far superior to the other. They just probabl
88 Art: Would this not be because Airbus said to them that if they waited, Airbus would come back with a better A350, and did this again and again?
89 Pavlin: If Airbs completely redesigns A350 it will have a big advantage over 787. Nobody wants to buy an aircraft than enters service two years later and is n
90 Sparkingwave: I think a lot of anti-Airbus people are just hoping against hope that Airbus won't change the A350 from its current design, and that by the time it co
91 Art: Is the 787 sufficiently superior to justify switching? This could be a lifesaver for the A350 if the 787 turns out to only be moderately better.
92 Tifoso: I don't remember SQ have said that, but do remember QF making that statement. It is worth considering that when QF ordered their Dreamliners, Boeing
93 SparkingWave: Well, several airlines that currently have Airbus aircraft seem to think so, with their firm orders for the 787. SparkingWave ~~~
96 BoogyJay: One cannot really be sure. But IMO, Boeing played this game more than Airbus did. QF postponed its decision not to wait for another Airbus proposal f
97 SparkingWave: Give me an example of an aircraft maker that has ever had a complete monopoly on the whole aircraft market in the history of aviation and I'll give y
98 Art: I can't. In any event we are not discussing the whole aircraft market here. The question is whether the A350 should be redesigned. I merely stated th
99 Leelaw: Is there another example where potential customers were publicly "suggesting" that an OEM go back to the drawing board and make a fundamental change(s
100 SparkingWave: The answer is yes, it should be. The A350 should be redesigned for the reasons I provided in my earlier post. The current A350 is much like your post
101 Windshear: I agree! Airbus had focused entirely on Hub To Hub being the future of airtravel. Then suddenly after claiming the A330 a fitting substitude for the
102 JOHNNY: Nothing more than PR PR PR PR PR....... If SQ really would be concerned about the fuselage of the A350, they could have said it earlier,couldn´they..
103 JoeCattoli: Might very well be... let's see! Personally I fail to understand why all think a wider fuselage is always better... The 2-3-2 767 did his job well...
104 BoomBoom: How do you know they didn't? What does SQ gain from this kind of PR?
105 Jacobin777: what did my comment say, it said when both planes start flying...and carriers do make mistakes also.....no carrier is fallible.... how do you come up
106 JOHNNY: @BoomBoom Better prizes from Airbus...
107 Kangar: Given that the A350 is more expensive to buy than the 787, it's operating economics must stack up pretty well, or it wouldn't get a second look from a
108 Skymileman: Yeah, but the only difference is, Boeing quickly went back to the drawing board and said they would give them what they wanted. Airbus just got all d
109 Stitch: I imagine it is far easier to stretch an existing design then widen one.
110 Shenzhen: When customers come out and say these type of things in the media it truly means that Boeing has serious pricing power with their 787. Without two com
111 N328KF: More likely, SQ has already made their decision on this class of aircraft and therefore their hand is already tipped. For example, if they have alrea
112 Kaitak: At the end of the day, when three of the leading aircraft customers (ILFC, GECAS and now, a leading airline - SIA) tell Airbus in no uncertain terms t
113 Tifoso: I'm not sure SQ wants a rock-bottom price. Here's a quote from Mr. Chew: If Boeing makes them a very good deal (something similar to QF maybe) SQ wil
114 Kaitak: Absolutely; be in no doubt that Boeing will need to give SQ a VERY good deal indeed to get this deal; I don't doubt that Boeing will be the chosen man
115 Stitch: The comments by Mr. Chew quoted by Tifoso in Reply 113 aside, I tend to believe as well that SQ has chosen the 787-9 and 787-10 and this is either a
116 Singapore_Air: Don't forget the 787-3 which is the replacement for SIA's A310s doing the regionals.
117 Stitch: SQ retired their A310s a few years back. Heck, Boeing suggested the 773ER to replace them back when SQ was expressing interest in the 7E7. While a 78
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