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FAA Blocks Runway Option At FLL, Reopening Debate  
User currently offlineKarlB737 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3100 posts, RR: 10
Posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2933 times:

Courtesy: South Florida Sun-Sentinel

FAA Blocks Runway Option At FLL, Reopening Controversy

http://www.airportbusiness.com/artic.../article.jsp?siteSection=1&id=6053

15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17412 posts, RR: 46
Reply 1, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2922 times:

What's wrong with just widening and extending the southern runway a bit? It's a no-brainer, lawsuits aside.


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineDnl65 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 79 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2889 times:

as usual the press has it just a tiny bit wrong. The alternative that was rejected, was the bright idea of one of the county commissioners who fancy themselves experts in all subjects particularly aviation. The proposed alternate was vastly more expensive, would have required relocation of a power station that provides about 25% of the power to Broward County and would not have had any benefits from an aviation standpoint. The FAA is studyng a multitude of alternatives at FLL an no decision has yet been made on any of these.

User currently offlineJetpixx From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 850 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2835 times:

This is my home airport - even more so if I move from Delray Beach to Fort Lauderdale in July. Lately, I have found myself paying even a little bit more to fly out of PBI because the security lines have been increasingly worse and the wait in line getting ready to takeoff gets worse and worse at FLL. They desperately need a second runway to handle all of the traffic. Luckily, it will be summer and a lot of flights will end for the season, but the cruisers will still be coming.

I hope this issue is resolved soon. I realize that this cannot happen overnight, but they've been jerking around with this for years. That whole Melaleuca Gardens place needs to be destroyed. I am so tired of those whiners - who mostly moved in AFTER the place was built in the first place - complaining about noise. You moved near an airport - what did you expect?


User currently offlineLehpron From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 7028 posts, RR: 21
Reply 4, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2810 times:

From article:

Quote:
In a memo sent to county commissioners Tuesday, the FAA said the option would have required the Florida East Coast railroad tracks to be realigned in a way that either reduced how fast trains could travel or required the destruction of a large portion of Dania Beach's business district.

While the latter seems to echo San Diego's problem, the forwards got me thinking. Which travel service will priority or can be more efficient when the "if you build it they will come" circumstances occur?

I mean, if the airport expanded, it could support more traffic. If the rail lines were left alone, while their traffic may not change, they will not loose any to a runway.

Maybe expanding the airport isn't the solution if most of the traffic that the airport is being expanded for domestic. Maybe some of the projected traffic can go through a rail system , not necessarily whatever exists now. But if it was a frieght line, forget it, they fly.  Wink

[Edited 2006-04-07 22:39:58]


The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
User currently offlineKFLLCFII From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3301 posts, RR: 30
Reply 5, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2793 times:

Apr. 5--The Federal Aviation Administration has ruled out an option for building a second major runway at Fort Lauderdale-Hollywood International Airport that some county officials had hoped could resolve years of turmoil over the airport's expansion.

FLL already has a second major runway, and it's called 13/31. If the county is seriously looking to resolve years of turmoil over the airport's expansion, then they'd get off the FAA's case for using it, as a start.



"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2776 times:

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 4):
While the latter seems to echo San Diego's problem, the forwards got me thinking. Which travel service will priority or can be more efficient when the "if you build it they will come" circumstances occur?

I mean, if the airport expanded, it could support more traffic. If the rail lines were left alone, while their traffic may not change, they will not loose any to a runway.

Maybe expanding the airport isn't the solution if most of the traffic that the airport is being expanded for domestic. Maybe some of the projected traffic can go through a rail system , not necessarily whatever exists now. But if it was a frieght line, forget it, they fly.


It's all about cost benefit, and you're right on the San Diego issue. Even if MCRD were to close, the capacity enhancment is so minimal that you can't effectively recoupe the cost of gaining that capacity. Same issue with a site that would be far too remote, like a desert. Or expansion of Lindberghs runway that would wipe out the NTC development, or expansion that would wipe out the Midway District.

[Edited 2006-04-07 22:59:48]

User currently offlineSlovacek747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2697 times:

The stupid tree huggin hippies need to be thrown out of the FLL area so that the runway can be extended. Who gives a flying flip the "environmental issues".. People need to put those aside and build or extend a runway. People come BEFORE animals or anything else. Keep it real FLL

Slovacek747


User currently offlineLehpron From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 7028 posts, RR: 21
Reply 8, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2573 times:

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 6):
It's all about cost benefit, and you're right on the San Diego issue. Even if MCRD were to close, the capacity enhancment is so minimal that you can't effectively recoupe the cost of gaining that capacity. Same issue with a site that would be far too remote, like a desert. Or expansion of Lindberghs runway that would wipe out the NTC development, or expansion that would wipe out the Midway District

Except I don't think we can put research dollars in finding better ways of utilizing our railway system -- unless we invest in maglevs, then we might as well have our airport in the middle of nowhere.

I'd figure, forgive any ignorance since I've never been to Florida, buiding another concrete countryside in an environmentally protected area complicates things.

Quoting Slovacek747 (Reply 7):
Who gives a flying flip the "environmental issues"..

I do.



The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
User currently offlineUSADreamliner From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2531 times:

Quoting Slovacek747 (Reply 7):
The stupid tree huggin hippies need to be thrown out of the FLL area so that the runway can be extended. Who gives a flying flip the "environmental issues"..

In that case, why don't we burn the everglades and build a mega-airport?Don't you think?

Who's going to complaint? the alligators?


USADreamliner

Just in case, that was sarcasm.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32688 posts, RR: 72
Reply 10, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2517 times:

Quoting Slovacek747 (Reply 7):
The stupid tree huggin hippies need to be thrown out of the FLL area so that the runway can be extended. Who gives a flying flip the "environmental issues".. People need to put those aside and build or extend a runway. People come BEFORE animals or anything else. Keep it real FLL

With MIA to the south and PBI to the north, both with arguably better security lines and less delays, and neither anywhere near capacity, there is no reason to do anything drastic. It isn't as if FLL is the only airport in town. If it were, then drastic measure shoudl be considered.



a.
User currently offlinePar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7115 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2491 times:

I admit FLL is getting much more traffic, presently its our gateway of choice into the MIA/FLL area. Loking at some google searches about runway 13/31, its shorter but just as wide. Anyone know what the FAA and local issues are with more utility of this runway?
Thanks


User currently offlineNADC10Fan From United States of America, joined May 2005, 165 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2433 times:

Quoting Slovacek747 (Reply 7):
The stupid tree huggin hippies need to be thrown out of the FLL area so that the runway can be extended. Who gives a flying flip the "environmental issues".. People need to put those aside and build or extend a runway. People come BEFORE animals or anything else. Keep it real FLL

While I certainly agree that the environmental concerns which have been thrown up as a roadblock to FLL's expansion are waaaaaaaaaay overblown, still, there are limits.

I remember Dade-Collier, and its scotching wasn't unreasonable considering it was an attempt to do just exactly what USADreamliner suggested - raze a portion of the Everglades for a big airport. Considering their importance to the existence of any community on the east coast of Florida, the Everglades do need to be preserved from that sort of thing. Meaning I for one will never support putting an airport out there.

So environmental issues are of concern. But this is an entirely and drastically different thing from what's happening at FLL.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):
With MIA to the south and PBI to the north, both with arguably better security lines and less delays, and neither anywhere near capacity, there is no reason to do anything drastic. It isn't as if FLL is the only airport in town. If it were, then drastic measure shoudl be considered.

No, FLL isn't the only airport in the area ... but MIA is ridiculously overcrowded and expensive and no fun to travel out of, and PBI is 80 miles north - quite the haul with no good rail link other than Tri-Rail (which is not an option I'm terribly enamoured of trying to use to get to the airport - although I may be staring at that very prospect).

Also, I've dealt with FLL's security a good deal over the past year, and it's been very reasonable - even more so if you travel smart. People talk about nightmares, but I have never seen that to be the case. Of course, I'm also not showing up for my flight only a half hour before it departs, either ...  razz 

Also, the level of flight delays has decreased significantly thanks to excellent work done by the FAA in redesigning routings into and out of FLL. While by no means a perfect situation, one cannot argue the improvements travel in and out has seen.

Quoting Par13del (Reply 11):
I admit FLL is getting much more traffic, presently its our gateway of choice into the MIA/FLL area. Looking at some google searches about runway 13/31, its shorter but just as wide. Anyone know what the FAA and local issues are with more utility of this runway?
Thanks

The city of Dania Beach, specifically, is the overwhelming problem.  hissyfit  Takeoffs lift right over the top of the city, and they want nothing to do with that. There are already issues with the operation of the southern runway just as it is, and the neighborhoods there and Dania Beach in general have a loud history of reacting to that. OK'ing expanded use of 13/31 would probably put them through the ceiling.  hot 

Of course, I don't much sympathize with those complaints. That airport's been in existance well previous to most parts of all the communities surrounding it, and it doesn't take knowledge of rocket science to realize that an airport is not and never will be a 'good' neighbor for that sort of thing. If you purchase by it, for whatever reason, you had better be willing to put up with the incoveniences that will attend. IMO the south runway is the only truly viable option, and should be expanded and lengthened. Unfortunately, politics of stupidity will likely prevent it from happening the way it needs to.  knockout 



TANSTAAFL!
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32688 posts, RR: 72
Reply 13, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2322 times:

Quoting NADC10Fan (Reply 12):
but MIA is ridiculously overcrowded and expensive

Overcrowded? Since when? The airport has the capacity to handle about 50% more traffic then it currently does. It is far from overcrowded, especially if you aren't fly AA, since the non-AA terminals are lightly used.

And the air fare difference is nothing what it used to, as AA frequently matches fares from FLL on jetBlue and Southwest (intra-Florida) and implenented a new, simpler, more affordable domestic airfare structure in 2004.

Quoting NADC10Fan (Reply 12):
and PBI is 80 miles north

80 miles north of Key Largo. It is about 45 miles from Dania Beach and in normal traffic less than an hour drive.



a.
User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2305 times:

Quoting Slovacek747 (Reply 7):
Who gives a flying flip the "environmental issues"..

Airport planning went green several years ago. Where have you been?

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 8):
Except I don't think we can put research dollars in finding better ways of utilizing our railway system -- unless we invest in maglevs, then we might as well have our airport in the middle of nowhere.

It's going to be Miramar. Not if, but when. Maybe not this year, but give it 10 when congestion at Lindbergh is visible and the Military can't justify the cost of keeping it. It'll come. The desert it simply far too remote, and has even greater airspace issues. Approach lineups would start near Phoenix to avoid the MOA around Yuma. Here's the deal on the military... They suggested they'd give up their Yuma operation and move it all to Miramar to support a Desert airport with Maglev running from Yuma to San Diego. Someone needs to stop smoking crack in the Department of the Navy.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 13):
Overcrowded? Since when? The airport has the capacity to handle about 50% more traffic then it currently does. It is far from overcrowded, especially if you aren't fly AA, since the non-AA terminals are lightly used.

False. They operate at or near their IFR peak most of the day. This leaves little to no room for margin of error.

[Edited 2006-04-09 22:01:57]

User currently offlineNADC10Fan From United States of America, joined May 2005, 165 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2226 times:

Okay ...

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 13):
Quoting NADC10Fan (Reply 12):
but MIA is ridiculously overcrowded and expensive

Overcrowded? Since when? The airport has the capacity to handle about 50% more traffic then it currently does. It is far from overcrowded, especially if you aren't fly AA, since the non-AA terminals are lightly used.

Hm. I also see what 7E7 had to say, which was my experience.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 13):
And the air fare difference is nothing what it used to, as AA frequently matches fares from FLL on jetBlue and Southwest (intra-Florida) and implenented a new, simpler, more affordable domestic airfare structure in 2004.

Did a quick search and MIA was more expensive in roughly 70% of them. The largest difference was roughly $50. Most, granted, were closer. But even if airlines only match fares, when you combine that with the FLL's convenience locality-wise for most Broward residents, MIA doesn't compete well.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 13):
Quoting NADC10Fan (Reply 12):
and PBI is 80 miles north

80 miles north of Key Largo. It is about 45 miles from Dania Beach and in normal traffic less than an hour drive.

Should've Google Local'ed it to begin with. My bad, and I apologize.

Even so, I'll split the difference with you. It's roughly 60 miles from where I live (western burbs of Fort Lauderdale) to PBI, whereas FLL is 17. (50 from Dania Beach to PBI, btw ... and 129 from Key Largo!)

But we're also talking SoFla. Normal traffic is 'good' and travel fairly reasonable only at the best of times. That's a fairly narrow range of hours. If you have to go to PBI you need to book at least 60-90 minutes - try to do it in less and you're only courting disaster.

Again, it's an issue of convenience. And from Central Broward County, PBI has to fight to be that way with FLL right there.



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