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What Is Wrong With KLM?  
User currently offlineKl692 From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 676 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 13137 times:

I have been monitoring KLM is I join this site and KLM being my fav airline. Well I have notice that they have be running into problems with the B744 and it is costing them to delay flights and in some cases cancel the flight. Now I don't know if this how they have always been but from what I heard about them before my first flight, it was all good. I think it is a great airline and if they want to hold that title then maybe it might be best for them to get rid of the b744 on some route as some of the route that they this A/C problem with is a big one.
Anyways I just want to run this by you all and see what you guys and gals think about this.thanks


A310, A330,A346,B73H, B747,B772,B77W,CRJ
49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCXA330300 From South Africa, joined May 2004, 1560 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 13104 times:

Perhaps they could do with getting rid of a few.....but not all. The 744 is the needed capacity for some of the routes, such as JNB or BKK.


The sky is the limit as long as you can stay there
User currently offlineSK601 From Belgium, joined Jun 2005, 976 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 13012 times:

IMO the main problem is that KL has not enough aircraft in order to operate the flight schedule. If there are a few aircraft out of service due to technical problems, than it will have too much of an impact on daily operations since there are hardly any spare aircraft available. KL has a large fleet, but it consists of too many different aircraft. They have 2 types B747-400 (full-pax and combi), MD11, B777, B767 and A330. In the narrow body fleet they have F50/70/100 and B737-300/400/800/900.

Since last week, the new summer schedule is in effect and KL introduced one extra "wave". In order to operate this extra wave of flights with the same number of aircraft, the turn-around times are short; resulting in a snowball-effect in case there is a delay.

KL is one of the largest operators of Fokker planes and the Fokkers have many many many technical issues, and KLM Cityhopper contributes the most to operational irregularities.  mad 


User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7410 posts, RR: 57
Reply 3, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 12917 times:

Quoting CXA330300 (Reply 1):
Perhaps they could do with getting rid of a few.....



Quoting SK601 (Reply 2):
KL has a large fleet, but it consists of too many different aircraft. They have 2 types B747-400 (full-pax and combi), MD11, B777, B767 and A330. In the narrow body fleet they have F50/70/100 and B737-300/400/800/900.

KLM started its fleet renewal too late, hence the situation now.
Their big mistake is that they kept those MD-11...
The policy chosen by AFKL is to get rid off all the -Combi (as AF did already many years ago).
The long-haul fleet should be reduced as soon as possible to B744 (?), B77X/A332.


User currently offlineKl692 From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 676 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 12788 times:

Quoting SK601 (Reply 2):
KL is one of the largest operators of Fokker planes and the Fokkers have many many many technical issues, and KLM Cityhopper contributes the most to operational irregularities.

They have some many technical issues with B744 since last week. Flight from YYZ to AMS was cancel last week due to technical issues with b744. KL should really think about replacing the B744 into something else othewise they might end with big problems on their hand later on in the near future.



A310, A330,A346,B73H, B747,B772,B77W,CRJ
User currently onlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7569 posts, RR: 43
Reply 5, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 12788 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 3):
The policy chosen by AFKL is to get rid off all the -Combi (as AF did already many years ago).
The long-haul fleet should be reduced as soon as possible to B744 (?), B77X/A332.

So, what do you think will happen when all the 744 Combis are retired? Will MEX be served with a 744 or with 772ER's?



Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineLamedianaranja From Venezuela, joined Nov 2004, 1246 posts, RR: 21
Reply 6, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 12739 times:

Nothing wrong with KL itself. But with 80plus% loadfactors and 100% usage of the fleet the schedules get mixed up a bit sometimes.
Thankfully we can send pax via Paris to their destinations sometimes, barring strikes in that country  Wink so they don't have to wait a full day for the next flight.
The Fokker fleet is a problem as SK601 mentions already but they're working on it. KLC directors and KL mainline people are constantly trying to improve the operation. In summer the problem is less as the little Fokkers  Cool (so cool to say that) are very susceptible to weather-caused inbound delays.



I wish that all skies were orange and blue!!
User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4870 posts, RR: 15
Reply 7, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 12714 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 3):
Their big mistake is that they kept those MD-11...

So what exactly is wrong with the MD11? To the best of my knowledge they have been great workhorses for KL and have not been all that problematic. Certainly no more problematic than their fleet of Fokkers. As for the 744, I'm sure that problems with one A/C will propagate and cause problems elsewhere but that is an A/C availability issue rather than a specific knock on the 744. Look at BA, they don't seem to be having too many problems with that type.

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineCheco77 From Peru, joined Oct 2004, 1345 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 12620 times:

The main problem NOW is that one B744 is out of operation because of an incident in AMS. As soon as this plane returns, the problem will be resolved.
As for the MD-11, I think they suit KLM perfectly, sending them to high-density, low-yield holiday destinations mainly. I am flying KLM longhaul EWR-AMS this summer and I am really hoping for the A332, so I am praying there will not be any fleet mess at that time.
Regards,
Adam



Czech Boeing lover living in Lima
User currently offlineKl692 From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 676 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 12553 times:

Quoting Checo77 (Reply 8):
The main problem NOW is that one B744 is out of operation because of an incident in AMS. As soon as this plane returns, the problem will be resolved.

Are you reffering to the A/C that had a push back problem back in FEB this year? if so, I beleive this A/C is back on dutie. I could be wrong but I am pretty sure.



A310, A330,A346,B73H, B747,B772,B77W,CRJ
User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 18
Reply 10, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 12464 times:

the main problem is French ownership forcing them to do things in a way they'd rather not, on the cheap.

Combis have always served KLM well, because KLM is a cargo heavy airline. As cargo is far more profitable than are passengers combis are cashcows. AF doesn't like that I guess so they pull them out of the line without replacement without scrapping routes maybe?

The MD11s are serving very well indeed. The only problem with them is that they're relatively expensive and cumbersome to maintain because of the tailmounted engine.
That takes special equipment to get to so whenever something needs to be done to it the aircraft needs to be towed to a hangar and if it's away from home they need to fly in a maintenance crew with the required jigs from Amsterdam (you can guess how expensive that is...).

The main problem now is the retirement of the 767s which should not have happened before replacements were in service but has for some reason been sped up (I guess once again to please the French who don't seem to like the aircraft which has always been one of the most reliable and most profitable in the KLM fleet).
So now KLM is short some 5 or so widebodies.
At the same time the F50s are disappearing while their replacements are delayed, causing a further shortage of aircraft on European routes.



I wish I were flying
User currently offlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 5025 posts, RR: 44
Reply 11, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 12377 times:

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 10):
the main problem is French ownership forcing them to do things in a way they'd rather not, on the cheap.

Shit man, you don't give up, do you?  Yeah sure

Your posts suggest you know quite a bit about aviation, but you constant ridiculous jabs at Air France and anything even remotely French make you a charicature more that anything.

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 10):
AF doesn't like that I guess so they pull them out of the line without replacement without scrapping routes maybe?

Give me one, just ONE, reason why AF wouldn't "like" the fact that the combis are cash cows. Nothing has been decided about the replacement of any of the 744 conbis at KL. And they'll have to replace them sooner or later because no new Combi models are certified anymore.

And no that's not the fault of the Evil French.

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 10):
The main problem now is the retirement of the 767s which should not have happened before replacements were in service but has for some reason been sped up

I don't see how the 767 retirement is 'sped up'. It seems they're being retired right according to the schedule. And they're being replaced: the first one was replaced by the tenth 777, the next three by the first three A330s, number five again by a 777.

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 10):
I guess once again to please the French who don't seem to like the aircraft which has always been one of the most reliable and most profitable in the KLM fleet

*yawn* Then why did KLM decide to replace it? And no, it wasn't the French, as the replacement was decided well ahead of the takeover by AF. I've said it before (but, not surprisingly, you chose to ignore that): the main reason for their replacement is cargo.


User currently offlineLijnden From Philippines, joined Apr 2003, 563 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 12366 times:
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I agree with Jwenting that the french are slowly making KLM into an airline that is not KLM anymore. Look alone how dirty the KLM planes are now! KLM planes were always very clean, it were the Air France planes that were famous for being dirty!

The Air France agenda is only meant for Air France and Paris. It is clear the french are slowly draining the airline (financially and client-wise) to the end, like they did with all the other airliners they controlled.

So, to answer your question on what is wrong with KLM, my answer is the french controlling it.



Be kind to animals!
User currently offlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 5025 posts, RR: 44
Reply 13, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 12334 times:

Quoting Lijnden (Reply 12):
Look alone how dirty the KLM planes are now!

ROTFLMAO!!! I have to remember that one: AF is evil because KLM planes are dirty! What a joke.  bigthumbsup 


User currently offlinePadster From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 76 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 12234 times:

Well I have seen one or two dirty F100's at AMS  Wink , the problems I see with KLM is the customer peception of the airline in a few years , AF have only guarenteed the KLM brand for a number of years , after this time their is nothing to stop AF gettting rid of the "KLM " brand , this would no doubt save AF money in the long run as it is cheaper to run one brand instead of two ...

I also think the problems with the F100 going tech every two mins are causing a little concern to KLM cityhopper.


User currently offlineEilennaei From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 12230 times:

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 10):
tailmounted engine.
That takes special equipment to get to so whenever something needs to be done to it the aircraft needs to be towed to a hangar and if it's away from home they need to fly in a maintenance crew with the required jigs from Amsterdam (you can guess how expensive that is...).

Honestly, I don't think there's any truth in this. Well, unless replacing #2 engines at an outstation was/is the bread and butter of KLM?


User currently offlineLamedianaranja From Venezuela, joined Nov 2004, 1246 posts, RR: 21
Reply 16, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 12192 times:

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 10):
AF doesn't like that I guess so they pull them out of the line without replacement

Any proof of that? Why wouldn't they like cash coming in?

Quoting Lijnden (Reply 12):
It is clear the french are slowly draining the airline

Any proof of that? To the contrary I'd say, new fleet has been ordered, new check-in and reservations system should be in place by 2009, Ground Services is being completely reorganised into a very efficient organisation, no expenses spared.



I wish that all skies were orange and blue!!
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6464 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 12177 times:

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 10):
the main problem is French ownership forcing them to do things in a way they'd rather not, on the cheap.

You have been predicting bad things for KLM ever since the AF/KL merger was announced. Not ONE thing you have predicted has ever happened! give it a break!


User currently offlineKiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8549 posts, RR: 13
Reply 18, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 12166 times:
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Quoting Jwenting (Reply 10):
Combis have always served KLM well, because KLM is a cargo heavy airline. As cargo is far more profitable than are passengers



Quoting Jwenting (Reply 10):
The main problem now is the retirement of the 767s which should not have happened before replacements were in service

the 767 is a great pax plane ( especially back in cattle where 2-3-2 is the nicest config of any widebody ) but lousy in terms of belly space ... if cargo is more important than pax to KL then they should have rid themselves of the 767s sooner rather than later . In any event , I believe that they have been retired on a one-for-one basis as new A330s and 777s are delivered - so they are not being retired before their replacements arrive .



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineDONS From Netherlands, joined Mar 2004, 28 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 12137 times:

Quoting SK601 (Reply 2):
KL is one of the largest operators of Fokker planes and the Fokkers have many many many technical issues, and KLM Cityhopper contributes the most to operational irregularities.

Those Fokkers are the feeders of the wide body fleet, with 5 to 6 flight per day, there's a big chance of going tech. The wide body fleet, departs at AMS only once, maybe two times a day, so there's you perception.

Quoting Lamedianaranja (Reply 6):
The Fokker fleet is a problem as SK601 mentions already but they're working on it. KLC directors and KL mainline people are constantly trying to improve the operation. In summer the problem is less as the little Fokkers (so cool to say that) are very susceptible to weather-caused inbound delays.

I don't see what KL mainline has to do with it (except being 100% shareholder)as maintenance & engineering is done by Martinair

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 10):
The MD11s are serving very well indeed. The only problem with them is that they're relatively expensive and cumbersome to maintain because of the tailmounted engine.
That takes special equipment to get to so whenever something needs to be done to it the aircraft needs to be towed to a hangar and if it's away from home they need to fly in a maintenance crew with the required jigs from Amsterdam (you can guess how expensive that is...).

If you have to fly in a engine at a outstation, even it's #2 engine, what's the problem of sending the engine change equipment with that shipment. Almost every airline has a QEC (quick engine change kit) standing by for emergencies.

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 10):
At the same time the F50s are disappearing while their replacements are delayed, causing a further shortage of aircraft on European routes.

Fleet is steady at 14 F50's for some time now, and as far as I know it will stay this way.

Quoting Padster (Reply 14):
I also think the problems with the F100 going tech every two mins are causing a little concern to KLM cityhopper.

That's why they keep adding them to the fleet, otherwise they have nothing to worry about. If you ask me the F100 is currently doing a lot better than a year ago.


User currently offlineMAS777 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 1999, 2935 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 12115 times:

Personally - I stopped flying KLM eversince AF bought the airline. As a previous Flying Dutchman Gold Elite traveller - things have been on a slide since then. Now happily switched to StarAlliance and no real complains there.

User currently offlineDONS From Netherlands, joined Mar 2004, 28 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 12104 times:

Quoting MAS777 (Reply 20):
Personally - I stopped flying KLM eversince AF bought the airline. As a previous Flying Dutchman Gold Elite traveller - things have been on a slide since then. Now happily switched to StarAlliance and no real complains there.

How do you do that? You stopped flying KL since AF took over, how do you know "things have been on a slide since then"? Must be from hear say I guess?


User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7410 posts, RR: 57
Reply 22, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 12104 times:

Quoting YOWza (Reply 7):
So what exactly is wrong with the MD11

Nothing wrong with the MD-11 itself.
It's just that it doesn't fit in a major airline that has to save costs and who is already operating 4 other different a/c type in its Long Haul fleet : B744/A332/B767/B777

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 10):
the main problem is French ownership forcing them to do things in a way they'd rather not, on the cheap.

This is just another kind of bullshit we are used from you.
But after all, "the French" own KLM... so they have the right to do whatever they want with it !  silly 


User currently offlineMAS777 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 1999, 2935 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 12042 times:

Quoting DONS (Reply 21):
How do you do that? You stopped flying KL since AF took over, how do you know "things have been on a slide since then"? Must be from hear say I guess?

OK - slightly exaggerated that I 'stopped' - my last KLM flight was late last year but instead of booking up to 12-14 return flights a year from LHR (all via AMS) as I used to, 2005 saw only 2 journeys by me on-board KLM.

In comparison to the days when I started flying KLM in the late 1980s - I believe - things have really got much worse. That last flight I took last year was full out of KUL and I found myself in Economy which was fine as GE passengers get that nice little section on their 744s - but the 'snack box meals' that were served (on a longhaul flight) were absolutely diabolical. Crew don't seem to like being part of AF and it shows too unfortunately.

Don't get me wrong - I loved collecting those little miniature houses with KLM but they all seem to have been in vain now. LH's Business Class and SQ Raffles have done a pretty good job at taking over my business sadly for KLM.


User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 18
Reply 24, posted (8 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 11906 times:

Quoting Eilennaei (Reply 15):
Honestly, I don't think there's any truth in this. Well, unless replacing #2 engines at an outstation was/is the bread and butter of KLM?

engines on wings are easily accessible, a ladder or whatever is enough (if that much).
The tail engine is another matter entirely, especially with the labour safety regulations they need to work with requiring extensive scaffolding to allow people to work that high up.



I wish I were flying
25 LTU932 : I believe the pushback problem happened in AMS. Agreed. The MD-11 is perfect for KL as far as cargo and passenger capacity goes for the destinations
26 Lijnden : As a life long flying client of KLM for many decades I do see many details and services disappearing since AF took over. It is simple: Air France does
27 Kl692 : I thought this was a merge to form the new Skyteam. I don't understand why the French would won't to bring KL down if they do indeed own KL. what wou
28 Singel09 : I fly KLM 3 times a week to various destinations in Europe and very regularly overseas. Occassionaly, I fly Air France as wel, about 20 flights now. N
29 Avianca : I do not think KL will get rid soon of the Combis, Cargo is a big market for KLM but not big enought to fill CargoJumbos to all destinations they are
30 HB-IWC : That particular B744 has returned to the active fleet on March 29, so at least that problem should be solved by now.
31 Post contains links Eilennaei : Ok, but that's not called a jig or scaffolding. That's officially called engine maintenance stand, tail stand for short, and one can be seen here: ht
32 HB-IWC : I do not believe that the presence of the 10-strong MD11 fleet is jeopardizing the stability of the KLM longhaul operation in large part. Overall, a s
33 Post contains images Cxsjr : .... now wash your mouth out!!
34 Mah584jr : Over in the states, lots of people seem to think that any tri-jet airplane is outdated, but I absolutely love those MD-11's. I'll never forget the day
35 Post contains images FlySSC : KL didn't wait for AF to have a crap onboard service, particularly in Business, on Long Haul. And KL service on European flights has already improved
36 Qm001 : Hi all, I am actually glad in some ways that alot of people are now seeing what I had said almost a year ago now. KLM's focus on customers has disappe
37 Airbuseric : Flying KL myself several times a year in C class, I confirm the seat comfort on 733/734 is terrible indeed, small seats, little legroom, 3-3 configur
38 Post contains images SK601 : I agree! Enjoy while you can, because this 2-3 layout will be adjusted in the near future to the 3-3 layout, like the rest of the B737 planes. I agre
39 Post contains images GlobeTrekker : One must remember that with Air France and KLM, the idea was to run two seperate airlines, with seperate products under one holding company (Air Franc
40 Grbld : It's no mystery: AF KL are positioning KLM as the cheaper brand. It was very clearly put in ATW's interview with Spinetta and Van Wijk: AF will be th
41 Kl692 : I am tryin to understand this, if Kl and AF merge to become one company, how come people are saying Kl belongs to AF? Now if people were to say AF to
42 JRadier : looking at direct costs.... yes But what you forget is that KLM is known by a lot of people around the world as a good carrier (and no, this is not y
43 Avianca : yes I heard about the B777F .... but you should be also heard that the B777F will be not aviable tomorrow, they will introduce earliest 2008, and you
44 FlySSC : Nobody said they would do it in one day... But Converting a 744Combi into a B744 all PAX doesn't take that long. AF still operates 7 B742F. When the
45 Joost : There is no absolute difference between a takeover and a merger. You can argue it in different ways. On one hand, it is a merger. It was not like AF
46 JRadier : And has won them several awards, most recently a awards from 'Aviation Week & Space Technology' in the category Commercial Air Transport for the succ
47 Post contains images Padster : which is my point .. they have some years now to blur the line between the two carriers so by the time it becomes one people will not know (or rememb
48 Joost : Well, I don't see why AF/KL would leave the Dutch market, where they have such a stronghold, to someone else. Although smaller than LHR or CDG, AMS i
49 Kl692 : thanks for clearing things up for me JOOST. you sure know your stuff. Thanks again
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