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A320 A Good MD-80 Replacement?  
User currently offlineBigJimFX From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 321 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5054 times:

I was going through the archives and I noticed that AA is thinking about waiting till the 737-NG comes out to replace the MD-80. Is having one type aircraft/manufacturer really that much of a money saver? I've been looking at the numbers and it would seem that an A320 would be a good MD-80 replacement. I don't know, maybe AA is having reservations from the A-300 problems, but compare these numbers and let me know what you think

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/md-80/product.html
http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfam...lies/a320/a320/specifications.html


I'd like to thank me for flying Me Airways...
45 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMaxQ2351 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5020 times:

My thoughts:

The A-320 would be a great MD-80 replacement as would the 737NG or Y1.

The A-300 was the first and last Airbus product AA has ever/will ever buy.

An A-320 in the AA livery wouldn't look good.......maybe it's just me, but I think the 737-800 looks better in AA colors than the A-320 would.

Now, my final though which I'll probably be  flamed  over!! If I know Texans (this is reference to AA's hub in DFW) as well as I think I do, they love their Lone Star flag, they love their American-made pickup trucks, and the day they'd be caught on a French-jet would be a cold day in hell!!

Max


User currently offlineMolykote From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1340 posts, RR: 29
Reply 2, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4987 times:
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Quoting MaxQ2351 (Reply 1):
Now, my final though which I'll probably be over!! If I know Texans (this is reference to AA's hub in DFW) as well as I think I do, they love their Lone Star flag, they love their American-made pickup trucks, and the day they'd be caught on a French-jet would be a cold day in hell!!

As I don't see the people you describe with your red neck stereotype being the same as those placing aircraft orders, I can only assume that you are talking about paying customers. I highly doubt that most passengers consciously appreciate any of the real differences between the aircraft types. I especially doubt that these passengers take the care to plan bookings around equipment routings.

If the French can appreciate a 777, I don't see why a Texan couldn't appreciate a narrowbus.



Speedtape - The asprin of aviation!
User currently offlineAviationAddict From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 621 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4978 times:
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Quoting MaxQ2351 (Reply 1):

The A-300 was the first and last Airbus product AA has ever/will ever buy.



I don't know if I'd go so far as to say it's the last Airbus product AA will ever buy. We can't be sure what the company will do 20 years down the road when it'll most likely be under new management and the bad A300 memories are gone. But I'm sure we won't see anymore Airbuses flying for AA anytime soon.

Also, even if the A320 is a more economical choice, I think you'd see AA go for the 738 first. But I don't think we'll see AA buy anymore planes for a long time because the company just doesn't have the money now. The MD-80s will probably be in service for at least another 5 to 10 years.

[Edited 2006-04-10 07:54:28]

[Edited 2006-04-10 07:54:48]

User currently offlineSeanp11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 290 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4968 times:

Quoting Molykote (Reply 2):
Quoting MaxQ2351 (Reply 1):
Now, my final though which I'll probably be over!! If I know Texans (this is reference to AA's hub in DFW) as well as I think I do, they love their Lone Star flag, they love their American-made pickup trucks, and the day they'd be caught on a French-jet would be a cold day in hell!!

As I don't see the people you describe with your red neck stereotype being the same as those placing aircraft orders, I can only assume that you are talking about paying customers. I highly doubt that most passengers consciously appreciate any of the real differences between the aircraft types. I especially doubt that these passengers take the care to plan bookings around equipment routings.

methinks it was a joke  Wink


User currently offlineMaxQ2351 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4958 times:

Quoting Molykote (Reply 2):
you describe with your red neck stereotype

Ugh, I knew this was coming!!! Sir it's a joke........you cannot possibly believe that I was speaking what I felt was the truth of the matter!! You would be right though, people would probably not give a damn if they were flying Airbus or Boeing.

What I do believe to be the truth of the matter though, is, AA is not the type of airline to be first in line for an Airbus product. As I said, I think their A-300's were probably the first and last Airbus that they'll ever buy. While the A-320 may be a decent replacement for the MD-80, AA is going to buy either 737NG or Y1.

Max


User currently offlineMaxQ2351 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4958 times:

Quoting Seanp11 (Reply 4):
methinks it was a joke

Thank you!!! It wasn't only me then!!!

Max

[Edited 2006-04-10 08:00:46]

User currently offlineMaxQ2351 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4949 times:

Quoting AviationAddict (Reply 3):
The MD-80s will probably be in service for at least another 5 to 10 years.

Probably longer than that. Their youngest ones are only like 5 years old plus/minus a few. They have a good few thousand cycles left on em!!

Max


User currently offlineAviationAddict From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 621 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4933 times:
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Quoting MaxQ2351 (Reply 7):
Probably longer than that. Their youngest ones are only like 5 years old plus/minus a few. They have a good few thousand cycles left on em!!

Very few are that young though. Most are probabaly around 10 or 12. I believe the average age is somewhere around 14 or 15 years old.


User currently offlineMaxQ2351 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4913 times:

Quoting AviationAddict (Reply 8):
Very few are that young though. Most are probabaly around 10 or 12. I believe the average age is somewhere around 14 or 15 years old.

NO!!! Don't say that!!! I love the MD-80, it's too soon for it to be retired!!! Man, I'd give a lot if I could be a Mad Dog driver one day!! If the economy of the industry comes back around one of these days maybe I'll eventually be able to........

Speaking of "Mad Dog", does anyone know how that nickname came to be??

-Max


User currently offlineQQflyboy From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2282 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4809 times:

Never say never... we may very well be surprised in the not so distant future!


The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3169 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4776 times:

Why would AA order a A320 to replace MD-80s? The A320 and the 737-800 are very similar airplanes, on the aspects of capacity, range, costs, etc. Both have their pro's and cons, but they are defenitely in the same segment and both would always be an option for (almost) any narrowbody operator.

But... AA already operates 77 737-800s! Why would they introduce another aircraft type?


User currently offlineLTU932 From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 13864 posts, RR: 50
Reply 12, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4736 times:

Quoting MaxQ2351 (Reply 5):
While the A-320 may be a decent replacement for the MD-80, AA is going to buy either 737NG or Y1.

Speaking of 737NGs, how about AA ordering a few 737-900ER, along with perhaps some 73Gs? I don't know exactly the figures on thr 737 and MD-80 seat arrangement, but a 737-700A could provide them the uplift they'd need for the sectors flown by the MD-80s, while the 737-900ER could give them the edge capacity and range wise for flights which are too small for the 757 and A300.

AA might need some newer airframes in the short term, since some of those MD-80s are getting pretty old. There were also proposals for increasing the lives of those MD-80s through a re-engining programme, but I see this as a very unlikely possibility, since the likely candiates for re-engining would be probably much less than their current fleet, taking into account the amount of cycles those aircraft may have.


User currently offlineFlagshipAZ From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3419 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4513 times:

Excuse me while I interject a few facts here on American's fleet. The MD-80s were ordered to replace the 727-100 fleet. 20 MD-80s were initially ordered, then 13 more, then 67 more after that. The oldest 33 MD-80s are now 20+ yrs old. The youngest MD-80s, from the TWA buyout, are a mere 7 yrs old, including the last MD-80 assembled. AA has on its MD-80 fleet roster, whether in or storage, 362 airframes. I can assure anyone here that the "Mad Dog" will still be flying for AA 10 yrs from now.
Now the 737-800s were ordered to replace AA's 727-200 fleet. 75 airframes were intially ordered, then 25 more, and 24 more after that. Now 77 738s are in service with AA, with 47 more still outstanding. These defered orders will more than likely start arriving in 2010, to replace some of the oldest MD-80s at that time.
The A300s will be gone in 4-6 years, to be replace by 763s or the 787, which AA will need roughly 35 airframes.
The 757s are staying put for a long while, while they are looking for roughly 20 2nd-tier RR-powered 752s.
The 777 fleet will be 47 ships strong at the end of the year, with 7 more on the books, which may or may not be built. These may be converted to the 787 order later in the decade.
So that's the outlook for American's fleet in the next few years. As a poster said before, AA doesn't have the capital right now to do any major fleet changes. And they're making do with what they have now. American is the ONLY legacy carrier left in the USA not to see a bankrupty court.
That alone speak volumes. Regards.



"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 14, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4481 times:

To answer your general question: Yes, the A320 is a good MD80 replacement, many airlines worldwide have purchased A32X aircraft to replace their MD80 fleets. The 737NG is also a good MD80 replacement - the 73G and 738 would each be considered. Considering that AA already flies the 738, and considering that AA has an unofficial deal with Boeing concerning Boeing being AA's sole supplier for aircraft with more than 120 seats, and considering that the relationship between AA and Airbus has been difficult, and worsened after the JFK crash in 2001, I would think that AA would order Boeing jets to replace its MD80 fleet in the future.

AA has an enourmous MD80 fleet that will take decades to replace - I think that it was always the plan for AA to fly the 737NG in various sizes - and a mix of 73G/738 aircraft would be a good MD80 replacement. The choice between the 73G and 738, or a mix of various members of the 737NG family would come down to how AA viewed the economics of each variant in relation to AA's operations.

The big question is whether AA will place large orders for 737NG later in the decade, or will AA wait for Boeing's successor to the 737NG? It all depends on timing, when Boeing announces the new aircraft, and AA's financial position in the coming years.


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11641 posts, RR: 61
Reply 15, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 4440 times:

Quoting BigJimFX (Thread starter):
Is having one type aircraft/manufacturer really that much of a money saver?

It is if that one manufacturer rewards an airline with huge price discounts for its loyalty, which is the deal AA and Boeing have worked out.

Quoting AviationAddict (Reply 3):
I don't know if I'd go so far as to say it's the last Airbus product AA will ever buy.

I would. AA doesn't like Airbus, and the feeling is mutual. AA is happy with Boeing products, and I doubt that is going to change anytime soon.

Quoting AviationAddict (Reply 3):
The MD-80s will probably be in service for at least another 5 to 10 years.

Try 15-20, at least. Even if AA were to replace every single MD80 currently in flight on a one-for-one basis with a 737, A320, or 737NG replacement, and took a new delivery from Boeing every single weekly continuously, it would take more than six years to replace all of AA's MD80s. Since AA is probably at least 5 years away from even making an MD80 replacement decision, and since it is somewhat unrealistic that Boeing could deliver a new plane to AA every single week for six years straight, I think the MD80s will be flying around in shiny silver for at least another decade or two.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 14):
The big question is whether AA will place large orders for 737NG later in the decade, or will AA wait for Boeing's successor to the 737NG? It all depends on timing, when Boeing announces the new aircraft, and AA's financial position in the coming years.

You hit the nail on the head. It is all going to come down to timing. If AA feels that it is strong enough financially to order new planes, and Boeing simoultaneously is ready to offer a 737NG replacement, than AA may just go for it. I don't think this scenario is out of the question at all. AA has already deferred the remaining 738 orders until 2013-2016. By then, seven years from now, Boeing will likely be much further along in developing and/or selling the Y1 product to customers.


User currently offlineMaxQ2351 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4373 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 15):
Try 15-20, at least.

Well, not 'at least', but this, in itself, is probably a realistic estimate. The youngest AA MD-80 is what......5 years old?? I think someone answered it above there somewhere. Anyhow, 20 years from now, those planes that are of now, very young, will be 25 years old. I suppose that wouldn't be the first time a McDonnell Douglas is used that long (NWA DC-9's....  Smile), but I'd think it unlikely that they keep their entire fleet that long without at least replacing a good chunk of the older half of the fleet with 738's or 73G's.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 15):
AA has already deferred the remaining 738 orders until 2013-2016. By then, seven years from now, Boeing will likely be much further along in developing and/or selling the Y1 product to customers.

I hope, and I don't think it's that far removed from being the actual case, that AA is the launch customer for Y1. Also, is it just me or does anyone else think it would be really cool if Boeing renamed Y1 as the 737-1000??? Would it not be perfect that they end 737NG on -900 (or -900ER....) and begin.....what are they up to now, 4th gen??.....anyhow, and begin the 4th gen on the -1000 model designation!! Maybe it's just me but I think that would just be pretty cool!!

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 12):
how about AA ordering a few 737-900ER

I personally think that would be great!! As far as AA following suit, I don't think it's very likely. I think it'd look great in AA colors though, esp. with the additional exit aft of the wings.....it'd give it more of a 757 appearance.


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11641 posts, RR: 61
Reply 17, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4317 times:

Quoting MaxQ2351 (Reply 16):
I hope, and I don't think it's that far removed from being the actual case, that AA is the launch customer for Y1.

The timing might work out, but AA really doesn't like launching airplanes anymore. The last brand new plane AA launched was the DC-10, and that was back in 1971. AA doesn't like being the first to jump in and commit millions to something unsure, and I doubt that policy has gone away considering how fiscally conservative AA's management has been of late. AA would rather watch another airline sink millions into a new plane, let them and the manufacturer work out the kinks, and then pay less money for a better, more advanced, more capable version.


User currently offlineTomFoolery From Austria, joined Jan 2004, 529 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4317 times:

One of the factors which might pose a threat to the continued use of the MD 80 fleet would be NOISE. Noise and rising costs of operation is what ran the 727's out of town. The MD 80's, at least for the forseeable future are still within the prevailing noise requirements, as are the NW DC9's. The 80's are also rather economical because of the CASM, while not better then A318/19/20/21 or 73x of today, they are still very good at what they do. They are work horses.
I'm not sure how many (if not all) AA own currently, but that could also be a factor, just like NWA. Lets just see who keeps their twin jet T tails the longest!
What did US replace theirs with? CRJ's and ERJ's with a few Airbuses thrown in for the unions.
As for the question at hand, I think the AA brand and composite laden aircraft dont make for a good mix. Look at some of the older A300 pics. Shiny Aluminum, Dull gray composite section, and some more shiny silver. Looks strange.



Paper makes an airplane fly
User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4303 times:

If gas stays as pricy as it has been, AA will start looking to speed up MD-80 replacement. If it drops down, I'd bet they'd keep the MD's flying for a solid 10+ years at least.

As for A320, they've already made their pick, they bought 80 737-800s, and options for more on the table. I'm sure they'll buy more.

AA, like DL and CO had signed exclusivity agreements with Boeing in the 90s. These bound AA, DL, and CO to buy Boeing jets, as opposed to a competitors, in exchange for better pricing and more favorable terms. When Boeing and McD merged, the EU made them void these, but all 3 airlines have held true to these exclusivity promises in gentlemen's agreements, and I'll assume Boeing has held up their end as well.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineSllevin From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 3376 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4199 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 15):
and since it is somewhat unrealistic that Boeing could deliver a new plane to AA every single week for six years straight

While I agree that the MD-80's are going to be around a while -- simply because there's no market to sell them into, and just parking them would represent a loss that overwhelm any advantages of the 737/A320/etc etc -- I don't think that Boeing adding 4 deliveries a month to the 737 line would be a big issue (they've recently delivered 11 and 12 airplanes a month), especially with a long term commitment. I don't know the numbers for Airbus, but I suspect they'd also have no issues delivering.

"Salivating at the opportunity" would better describe their hopes on the matter  Smile

Steve


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11641 posts, RR: 61
Reply 21, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 4161 times:

Quoting Sllevin (Reply 20):
I don't think that Boeing adding 4 deliveries a month to the 737 line would be a big issue (they've recently delivered 11 and 12 airplanes a month), especially with a long term commitment

I agree, Boeing adding four deliveries per month to the 737 line would not be too challenging, but if we are working off the premise that AA would order the new Y1, a new aircraft that would hypothetically just being getting off the ground around the time AA starts taking deliveries, Boeing would likely have a hard time getting a new plane off the line once per week, just for AA, to say nothing of deliveries for other customers.

Quoting Sllevin (Reply 20):
"Salivating at the opportunity" would better describe their hopes on the matter

No question about that. AA alone would order enough of any prospective MD80 replacement (737NG or Y1) to basically keep the line moving for at least five years, probably closer to a decade or more.


User currently offlineMaxQ2351 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4102 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 21):
AA alone would order enough of any prospective MD80 replacement (737NG or Y1) to basically keep the line moving for at least five years, probably closer to a decade or more.

At the rate of 1 aircraft per week, which has already been pointed out as being a very agressive rate, it would take between 6 and 7 years for the entire AA MD-80 fleet to be replaced.

-Max


User currently offlineSllevin From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 3376 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3930 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 21):
Boeing would likely have a hard time getting a new plane off the line once per week, just for AA, to say nothing of deliveries for other customers.

While the first few months might be slow, I can't believe that Boeing would not have a 6 month target to be able to deliver at least as many Y1's as 737's -- quite honestly, they HAVE to be able to do that. While designing planes is tough, building them is a well understood process.

Steve


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 59
Reply 24, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3872 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 15):
You hit the nail on the head. It is all going to come down to timing.

Yes, and no. Yes, it's about timing, but no, it isn't going to change the answer.

The answer is simple.

The AA MD80s will fly until they are eventually replaced by Y1. If AA decides some of the oldest MD80s need replacing sooner, they will accelerate delivery of the deferred 738s they would need to accomplish this. But there will be no new orders for any current Boeing or Airbus models. No 767s, no 777s, no 737s, no 330s or 320s.

AA will be a launch customer for the Y1 along with WN. Mark my words. The plane will be designed with both AA and WN as team members (kind of ironic, but that will be true). CO will also be a strong member of that team. Between the three, they will account for 600 orders and options. That's to start.

At the time AA orders Y1 (2007 or 8, when launched), they will also order 787s. They don't have a need to order the 787 before that, as they still have 777s they can take and their 767 fleet is not going anywhere. 787 slots are not full from 2011, when AA would want to start taking them to replace the oldest 767s and A300s.

In other words, there is no time crunch for AA and no action need be taken before Y1 launched. They have enough current airframes on order (738, 777) to meet any growth/replacement needs through 2010.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
25 MaxQ2351 : Wow I just had the most bizarre revelation about the AA fleet!! You guys know how AA used to name (not sure if they still do) their narrowbody aircraf
26 TS-IOR : Numerous airlines shifted from MD-80s to A32S, Nouvelair, Aero-Lloyd (defunct), Airtours Mytravel, Spanair, Alitalia...
27 MaxQ2351 : Yea but AA already has the 738 and they aren't the best of friends with Airbus.... -Max
28 Ikramerica : I think he was responding to the thread title, which omits AA from it. The title asks if it's a good replacement, but the question is if it's good fo
29 Mudboy : Am I the only one who hates the fact that all new narrow-body airliners have gone to 3-3 seating. I enjoy flying on MD80s, 90s, DC9s, and B717s, due t
30 FlyDreamliner : Bear in mind that about the same time, WN is going to be placing an order of roughly the same size. Smaller orders from numerous other carriers are a
31 BoomBoom : I don't know, I remember in college we called Mogan David wine Mad Dog.
32 BigJimFX : Ya know... In all honesty, I swore of MD-80's because of some of the things I've seen go wrong with them. All though in retrospect it may be due to t
33 MaxQ2351 : I subscribe to this way of thinking about them also!! I used to get SOOOO tired of riding on them when I was a kid.......but now I love to ride the M
34 N1120A : Well, the 738 is more the size of the MD80, but a mix leaning toward more 738s would bring you to the average capacity of the MD80. Still, it would b
35 Steeler83 : The only two times I took DC9s was when I was 9 years old and went to MCO from PIT. I was in 7 or 8F for both flights. I guess I was small enough to
36 Post contains images MaxQ2351 : WHAT?!?!?! That's too bad....seriously!! I flew on a bunch of them when I was young......too young to care about the significance of actually flying
37 Mudboy : Was that last year on NWA? Sorry, I just couldn't resist!
38 Post contains images Steeler83 : I'm sorry... Am I supposed to laugh at that...
39 Post contains images KL662 : If AA orders the 787, will they change their livery to be unpainted black carbon fiber? Or will they just paint the planes silver?
40 FlyDreamliner : If you think the DC-9 was loud, then I think you'd call 727 deafening. Sitting in the back of a 727 on a transcontinental flight almost constitutes t
41 Steeler83 : Have you or anyone on here ever been on a 717? Are those really loud or are they quieter than DC9s and 727s?
42 Mudboy : I have flown a few on Airtran, and they were very comfortable and quieter than the DC9s and 727s.
43 MaxQ2351 : Maybe I'm comparing apples and oranges, but I'd say a Saab 340 or a DHC-8 are deafening!!...not a 727!! It took me a while to understand what you mea
44 Ikramerica : I'm sure you aren't the only one, but you can't count me with you. I like to sit by the window. I also like first class upgrades. MD80s are not good
45 OyKIE : Just a thought here. But Scandinavian Airlines also have allot of MD-80 and since they have A321 and A319, maybe it would be a good idea for them to
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