Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Southwest In PIT - One Year Later  
User currently offlineN670UW From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1603 posts, RR: 8
Posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4814 times:

The DoT recently released its Consumer Air Fare Report for the Third Quarter of 2005. Interestingly enough, 3rd Quarter 2005 is the first full quarter Southwest has been in Pittsburgh, as they began service in May 2005, in the middle of the 2nd Quarter.

I took a few minutes to look at the effect Southwest has had in their initial Pittsburgh markets: MDW, LAS, MCO, and PHL, comparing 3rd Quarter 2005 O&D traffic and fares to 3rd Quarter 2004. (Southwest's first PIT quarter compared to the same quarter the year before, when Southwest was not in PIT.)

(US Airways still had a "hub" at PIT in 3rd Quarter 2004, with about 370 weekday departures compared to the ~200 departures in summer 2005.)

I found this information on the DoT's website:
3rd Quarter 2004: http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/aviation/domfares/tab6043.txt
3rd Quarter 2005: http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/aviation/domfares/tab6053.txt

Chicago (PIT-MDW/ORD)
Trip Distance: 412 mi.

Avg. Local Pax/Day - 3Q04: 1015.32
Avg. Local Pax/Day - 3Q05: 1520.43 (49.7% increase)

Avg. One-Way Fare - 3Q04: $115.92
Avg. One-Way Fare - 3Q05: $82.88 (28.5% decrease)




Las Vegas (PIT-LAS)
Trip Distance: 1910 mi.

Avg. Local Pax/Day - 3Q04: 860.21
Avg. Local Pax/Day - 3Q05: 825.54 (4.0% decrease)

Avg. One-Way Fare - 3Q04: $139.92
Avg. One-Way Fare - 3Q05: $152.80 (9.2% increase)




Orlando (PIT-MCO)
Trip Distance: 834 mi.

Avg. Local Pax/Day - 3Q04: 865.97
Avg. Local Pax/Day - 3Q05: 1220.00 (40.9% increase)

Avg. One-Way Fare - 3Q04: $115.83
Avg. One-Way Fare - 3Q05: $99.82 (13.8% decrease)




Philadelphia (PIT-PHL)
Trip Distance: 267 mi.

Avg. Local Pax/Day - 3Q04: 421.84
Avg. Local Pax/Day - 3Q05: 1401.73 (232.3% increase)

Avg. One-Way Fare - 3Q04: $265.90
Avg. One-Way Fare - 3Q05: $83.82 (68.5% decrease)




The biggest thing to stand out is traffic in the long-overpriced PIT-PHL market more than tripling in the course of only a year, while average fares were cut by more than half. US Airways, while still the largest carrier in the market, has had its market share fall from 87.0% to 50.5% in that time (Southwest was 45.4%).

Even the more nominal (compared to PHL) market stimulations in Chicago and Orlando are impressive, given the (albeit, smaller) presence of low cost carriers in those markets at the time (TZ and FL, respectively).

The decline in O&D traffic (and rise in fares) in the PIT-LAS market is rather odd.

I think another city from Pittsburgh that could see PHL-like growth (percentage-wise) for WN is BWI. There were only 53.80 local passengers on the route in 3rd Qtr 2005, but average one-way fares were $352.43! I would expect bringing that fare to say, oh, under $100 would amount to similar growth.

This wasn't meant to praise or bash WN in any way, though the growth effect Southwest has had in these markets is remarkable, particularly Philadelphia.

Comments?


N670UW

42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSteeler83 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 9176 posts, RR: 18
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4742 times:

Quoting N670UW (Thread starter):
The decline in O&D traffic (and rise in fares) in the PIT-LAS market is rather odd.

That is rather odd. Demand on that route was supposed to go up. I thought that LAS is one of the top destinations from PIT... The other routes are no surprise to me, especially with PHL... I am a college student (known for being poor, if you will). In 2003, the lowest fare on that route was $217!!! I flew that route twice within 6 months - TWICE, 2x!!! In June of last year, a month after they started service, and again this past December I flew WN to avoid the turnpike and Greyhound... I paid $78.40 and $98.40 round trip respectively!!! 78 dollars and 40 cents!!!! round trip!!! I did not think that I would see the day I'd do that... anyway...

Quoting N670UW (Thread starter):
I think another city from Pittsburgh that could see PHL-like growth (percentage-wise) for WN is BWI.

I agree with this. People on the other thread were asking about DCA service, and I brought up BWI. They said that PIT is too new of a market, but give it at least another year, and I can also see PIT-BWI service on WN... At least one or two flights daily to start...

It would be interesting to see how the PHX and TPA service are doing. I am guessing that since PIT-PHX is secondary hub-hub service for US and US restructured itself and merged with HP to cut costs to compete with LCCs by becomming one, that route may be struggling, but what do I know... TPA I am not sure of... Besides BWI, which destinations do you think WN will open up next within the next year or so?



Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
User currently offlineATCT From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2264 posts, RR: 38
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4696 times:

I wonder about PIT-MHT service. With JetBlue starting PIT-BOS, I could see some competition and fare-driving-down.

ATCT



"The way to get started is to quit talking and begin doing." - Walt Disney
User currently onlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5362 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4661 times:

Quoting N670UW (Thread starter):
I think another city from Pittsburgh that could see PHL-like growth (percentage-wise) for WN is BWI.

Looking at WN's entry into CLE-BWI, the result will be that the market will expand greatly but lots of PIT-DCA traffic will transfer to PIT-BWI, with service reductions in frequency and aircraft size on the DCA route. If you want to go to Baltimore, it will be great. If you want to go to Washington, there will be trade-offs.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineEjmmsu From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1692 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4654 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 3):
If you want to go to Washington, there will be trade-offs.

What exactly is this harrowing "trade off"? 4 flights per day rather than 6?

I'm shuddering just thinking about it !



"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
User currently offlinePanAm330 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2669 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4635 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 3):
but lots of PIT-DCA traffic will transfer to PIT-BWI,

You must be referring to a different US Airways than the one that runs these routes, because the one I know of would flaunt DCA as being more convenient to Washington (which it is, by far), and would/does market these flights towards business travelers. If there is any reaction by US to this potential (and IMO not very likely) move by WN to add PIT-BWI, it would be the addition of another frequency or two. Maybe even an upgrade, but that's about it.


User currently offlineCentPIT From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 990 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 4435 times:

WN needs to add new markets in PIT. They have been doing well. I personally thought that new cities would have already been announced.

We're waiting southwest!  Wink



Pittsburgh International: US Airways---160 daily departures! (52 destinations)
User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 22
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4341 times:

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 4):
What exactly is this harrowing "trade off"?

He meant, that it is great if you want to go to BWI, but if your ultimate destination is DCA, the tradeoff comes in deciding if the lower fare justifies the additional distance on the end of the trip.



Delete this User
User currently offlineHoosierCFI From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 96 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4331 times:

I hope that WN adds the BWI-PIT route. Anyone who has made the Friday night drive to Pittsburgh knows what a pain in the a** I-70 is in Frederick. I honestly think that this route could support 3 flights a day easily.

User currently offlineCentPIT From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 990 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4268 times:

Quoting HoosierCFI (Reply 8):
I honestly think that this route could support 3 flights a day easily.

This route could easily support five flights if the fare is low enough.



Pittsburgh International: US Airways---160 daily departures! (52 destinations)
User currently offlineCairo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4261 times:

Quoting N670UW (Thread starter):
The decline in O&D traffic (and rise in fares) in the PIT-LAS market is rather odd.

LAS is purely a leisure market and ANY airline that flies there has to offer low fares to get any business. US was already pricing as low as it or anyone could go; while obviously pricing to places like PHL made up for the low yielding LAS route.

PIT-PHL was long screaming out for WN service. It is perfect for them.

The amazing thing is how many routes are still open to WN service and how much money has yet to be saved by airline customers at the expense of bloated legacies. Note what happened when WN infringed on 2 US hubs - US itself at to become an LCC or close to it.

Cairo


User currently offlinePgh234 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 794 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 4176 times:

I will be commuting almost every weekend this summer between Baltimore and Pittsburgh. Dreams would come true if WN started this route.

pgh234


User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 4170 times:

Quoting ATCT (Reply 2):
I wonder about PIT-MHT service. With JetBlue starting PIT-BOS, I could see some competition and fare-driving-down.

WN doesn't fly PIT-MHT.

If you though PIT-PHL went up, just wait till PIT-BOS starts on jetBlue! Now if only F9 would start PIT-DEN service!



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineIowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4363 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 4139 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting Cairo (Reply 10):
LAS is purely a leisure market and ANY airline that flies there has to offer low fares to get any business. US was already pricing as low as it or anyone could go; while obviously pricing to places like PHL made up for the low yielding LAS route.

LAS is obviously a mass majority low yield, however there are more business travelers every day believe it or not.



Next flights: WN DSM-LAS-PHX, US PHX-SJD. Return: US SJD-PHX, WN PHX-MDW-DSM
User currently onlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5362 posts, RR: 7
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4031 times:

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 4):
What exactly is this harrowing "trade off"? 4 flights per day rather than 6?

As Stirling said, the tradeoff is time vs money. You can get from DCA to the K Street corridor in Washington in about 20 minutes by cheap subway or taxi. It takes about two hours (allowing time to wait for the van to fill up and dropoffs ahead of you) to do it by van from BWI. Comparing airfares for an overnight roundtrip two weeks from now CLE-BWI is $195 while CLE-DCA is $463.

If you're a tourist, you take the bargain fare to BWI. If you're a lawyer billing your client $475 an hour, you pay the extra $268 and go to DCA, saving your client $600 or so - in theory, anyway.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4036 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4009 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 14):
Comparing airfares for an overnight roundtrip two weeks from now CLE-BWI is $195 while CLE-DCA is $463.

Really, I just found overnight roundtrip fare on Apr. 26-27 on CO at $194 and on US at $209.


User currently offlineATCT From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2264 posts, RR: 38
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3988 times:

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 12):
WN doesn't fly PIT-MHT.

No! They dont?! I know this, I said "I wonder about PIT-MHT". Sorry I guess I couldve said "I wonder if they'll Start PIT-MHT"

-ATCT



"The way to get started is to quit talking and begin doing." - Walt Disney
User currently onlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5362 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3932 times:

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 15):
Really, I just found overnight roundtrip fare on Apr. 26-27 on CO at $194 and on US at $209.

I just punched in a morning outbound and evening return, typical businessman's ticket, on CO for both routes and asked for the best fare. Cheaper buckets may indeed be available on other less popular flights.

I thought US quit flying CLE-DCA a few months ago. No?



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently onlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7508 posts, RR: 24
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3789 times:

Quoting Cairo (Reply 10):
Quoting N670UW (Thread starter):
The decline in O&D traffic (and rise in fares) in the PIT-LAS market is rather odd.

LAS is purely a leisure market and ANY airline that flies there has to offer low fares to get any business. US was already pricing as low as it or anyone could go; while obviously pricing to places like PHL made up for the low yielding LAS route.

Didn't/Doesn't HP offer LAS-PIT service? Pre-US merger, that might be one reason those fares might have been lower last year.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4036 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 3730 times:

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 17):
I just punched in a morning outbound and evening return, typical businessman's ticket, on CO for both routes and asked for the best fare. Cheaper buckets may indeed be available on other less popular flights.

I thought US quit flying CLE-DCA a few months ago. No?

I used the same information you did, on Sidestep which works best for me. I'm not familiar with US East routes, but from the flight number it looks like an express route.


User currently offlineCentPIT From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 990 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3626 times:

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 18):
Didn't/Doesn't HP offer LAS-PIT service? Pre-US merger, that might be one reason those fares might have been lower last year.

Yes, HP did fly PIT-LAS. This was only for 4 months or so before the merger began. It was also only once daily, so I am not sure if this could have much to do with it.



Pittsburgh International: US Airways---160 daily departures! (52 destinations)
User currently offlineN670UW From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1603 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3609 times:

HP (US West) still flies LAS-PIT...once daily A319 - alongside the two US (East) 757's.



N670UW


User currently offlineCentPIT From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 990 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3553 times:

Quoting N670UW (Reply 21):
HP (US West) still flies LAS-PIT...once daily A319 - alongside the two US (East) 757's.

Yes they do! I shouldn't have used past tense. PIT-LAS, from what I hear does well for the three US flights!



Pittsburgh International: US Airways---160 daily departures! (52 destinations)
User currently offlineWN57787 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 116 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3535 times:

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 12):
WN doesn't fly PIT-MHT.

WN has 1 Direct flt to MHT, 1 to PVD and 2 to BDL a day


User currently offlineCentPIT From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 990 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3499 times:

Quoting WN57787 (Reply 23):
WN has 1 Direct flt to MHT, 1 to PVD and 2 to BDL a day

Well, when are they going to announce them? Direct means PIT-MHT, PIT-PVD, and PIT-BDL without stopping correct?

Or by direct do you mean PIT-PHL-MHT, PIT-PHL-PVD, and PIT-PHL-BDL without a change of aircraft?



Pittsburgh International: US Airways---160 daily departures! (52 destinations)
25 ScottB : I'd add that certain connecting Southwest markets from PIT also saw significant decreases in fares and increases in passengers between 2004 and 2005:
26 CentPIT : I am as well surprised. It's almost as if something happened between PIT and WN. Destinations should have been added by now!
27 N670UW : I've heard WN is waiting until after 1st Qtr earnings are announced before announcing any expansion system-wide. Earnings should be announced sometim
28 Steeler83 : When did WN start this? On WN's route map, those routes are not on there...
29 Post contains images N670UW : They're "direct" -- not nonstop. There's a stop in PHL, but the flight number continues on. There's actually a difference between "direct" and "nonst
30 Post contains images Steeler83 : Yes, I can see that all now. Thanks a lot What do the loads look like on those flights? Are there a lot of ppl continuing on to those airports from P
31 WN57787 : Direct is one or more stops same plane servivce. 2023 is to BDL 676 is to PVD 2149 is to MHT 899 is to BDL all make one stop in PHL will be anounced
32 CentPIT : Thanks! Well who cares about direct service, we want non-stop service! When do you think they will be adding destinations?
33 Post contains images CentPIT : I was just thinking, with all the service that WN offers in PA now (PIT and PHL) they should have a plane in "Pennsylvania One" livery! What do you gu
34 WN57787 : it is not typically for WN to Dedicate a A/C until.... they operate more then 50% of the Market for the State. they have a long ways to go!!!! MD1 wa
35 Post contains images USPIT10L : If WN starts service to ERI, MDT, and AVP, THEN maybe we'll see a "Pennsylvania One" aircraft. Of course, it'd look hideous, considering the color of
36 ChrisNH : My wife and daughter will be flying MHT-PIT on Southwest, and in both directions they'll be on direct same-plane flights through PHL. There must be a
37 CentPIT : I thought WN would have already started the following: PIT-BWI PIT-FLL PIT-MHT PIT-PVD PIT-LAX Maybe I was stupid to expect these routes. What do you
38 TxAgKuwait : >>Maybe I was stupid to expect these routes. What do you guys think?
39 WN57787 : WN just can not get the A/C from Bowing fast enough to full fill all the markets.
40 CentPIT : Thanks, these are legitimate reasons! I hope they can get more Boeing aircraft faster then.
41 Pitflyer : I flew PIT-LAS roundtrip recently. On the way back they announced 110/137 seats taken with 70 of those as PIT-LAS O&D and the rest as thru (most proba
42 Steeler83 : So this plane was a LAS-PHL direct with one stop in PIT. I guess that those pax on that plane don't count as connecting pax in PIT or do they? I have
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Southwest In PIT - Typo In Article? posted Fri Jun 25 2004 15:37:50 by JohnJ
United Airlines - One Year Later posted Sun Dec 14 2003 22:21:27 by DeltaSFO
ASA261, One Year Later posted Thu Feb 1 2001 00:50:35 by N766AS
Engineless A310 In SIN, But In VCV A Year Later? posted Sat May 7 2005 05:39:20 by Flight152
Delta In DFW, Going Great One Month Later.. posted Wed Mar 2 2005 20:24:27 by N839MH
US Airways Agrees To One-Year Extension For PIT posted Thu Oct 9 2003 21:29:53 by N670UW
Air Force One In PIT Tomorrow posted Mon Jul 28 2003 05:07:53 by Covert
AMR Loses $3.5 Billion In One Year posted Thu Jan 23 2003 04:34:10 by UA744Flagship
Where Are Fares Going In The Next Year? posted Mon Nov 13 2006 19:05:09 by ATLAaron
Connecting On Southwest In Orlando Question posted Sun Sep 24 2006 05:43:21 by Iowaman