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New Update On DL JFK-RIC Service  
User currently offlineEvan767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2957 posts, RR: 2
Posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 4636 times:

For all you people that were crying about the new DL service on tiny turbo props from JFK-RIC in September, read this:
http://www.timesdispatch.com/servlet...icle&c=MGArticle&cid=1137835274972
Instead of flying those incredibly shaky, tiny, and slow Dash-8's, they will be flying longer, smoother flying, bigger, CRJ jets to JFK to compete with JetBlue. Yeah it won't beat JetBlue's IFE and all that other stuff, but it will help DL with the loyal customers. As well as upgrading the equipment, they will be moving up the launch date to July 5. So hopefully they can add a little revenue from the summer traffic. Take that JetBlue!


The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline73G From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 128 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4604 times:

"Bob Cortelyou, vice president of network planning for Delta, disclosed the new plan yesterday during an interview about the airline's service here.

"Part of it was the comments about turboprops," he said. "That's a valid response. Since Richmond is such a good market, we wanted to upgrade service.""

As opposed to the crappy markets where they will be sending the Dash 8's? DL really needs to take a look at their PR procedures.


User currently offlineTIA From Albania, joined Mar 2006, 524 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4583 times:

I seriously don't understand what people have against turboprops. Until last fall I had never flown in an RJ or turboprop, but having flown on both numerous times since then, I can't say that there is a noticable difference in comfort between them. In fact, I would take a Dash 8 over an RJ any day. The ERJ seems to narrow to me, and on the CRJs the windows are too low. Plus, I love being able to look at the landing gear of the Dash 8 from inside the plane.

User currently offlineTWA902fly From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 3128 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4556 times:

Quoting TIA (Reply 2):
Plus, I love being able to look at the landing gear of the Dash 8 from inside the plane.

Delta should have advertised that on their RIC-JFK service.

"Sure, JetBlue has TV's in every seat, but we at Delta believe in involving our passengers in the flight. Every passenger on board Delta's new nonstop service to Richmond will get to experience: LANDING GEAR!"

'902



life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13251 posts, RR: 100
Reply 4, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4548 times:
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Quoting TIA (Reply 2):
I seriously don't understand what people have against turboprops

It depends on the turboprop. Some are fine, some transmit an amazing amount of vibration. A few, if you ride in the tail, feel like a roller coaster. While us on a.net might love that, more people than you can believe are truly afraid of flying. Any reason to dislike an airframe... and they will.

Not to mention the visible twirling blades of death.  duck  Seriously, how many products do we package to sell? Heck, Trader joes now packages apples!

Like it or not, there is a measurable market aversion to props that is expressed in yield differences.

Quoting Evan767 (Thread starter):
Take that JetBlue!

I hope DL isn't treating taking on B6 like a game as some of their fans seem to. B6 and FL combined are way too big for DL to squash. Hurt? Sure. Hurt more than DL hurts itself?  scratchchin  I'll let you make the call.

Oh, I agree with DL doing an international hub with domestic feed at JFK. There is a yeild/market potential for them there.

But DL taking on LCC's with RJ's?  vomit  That just makes me ill. Last I looked, a CR2 has a 40% to 50% higher CASM than an E-190. In other words, a 65% full E190 can be break even with fares that the CR2 could never make money. Yes, I understand that CR2 will be connecting to an international flight and that the route might thus be profitable. But enough more cash to subsidize the CR2?  scratchchin  Yes, DL had to do something as a Dash-8 vs. an E190... all the point to point would be on B6 except for the most loyal DL customers.  Wink

But this route, head to head with B6, has me going "huh?" I want DL to survive, not expend its last free cash thrashing out like a dying bear. Flame me if you want... but I'm just not getting the current DL strategy. I would really appreciate a link that sums it up and then shows how these new routes will lead to profit. I'm not saying the JFK hub is a bad idea... but the overall plan is a card short of a full hand. Not what I'd want to play poker with. And DL isn't holding 4 aces...

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineFlyboy7974 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 1540 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4548 times:

If I had to fly on DL, I would rather fly a Dash 8 than the CRJ. If it would be an ERJ, no problem or even the larger CRJ -700 or -900, no problem

User currently offlineMajorNelson From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4500 times:

Quoting Flyboy7974 (Reply 5):
If I had to fly on DL, I would rather fly a Dash 8 than the CRJ. If it would be an ERJ, no problem or even the larger CRJ -700 or -900, no problem

You'd rather fly 1:45 to 2:00 on a noisy Dash 8-100 slowpoke rattletrap than 1:00 on a CRJ-200? You're whacked.


User currently offlineAirwave From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1117 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4472 times:

Quoting Evan767 (Thread starter):
but it will help DL with the loyal customers.



Quoting 73G (Reply 1):
As opposed to the crappy markets where they will be sending the Dash 8's?

Indeed.

What I'm curious to know is...why this route? I'm sure there are more than a few DL routes which are currently turboprop operated yet could benefit from the introduction of a CRJ. Same logic applies if you're thinking of answering, "Because of jetBlue." The question stands. So, why single this route out at all unless and until you're prepared to make a systemic change that'll benefit *all* loyal DL flyers at *all* turboprop-served airports. Put another way, what makes RIC so special?

Airwave  eyebrow 



When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.
User currently offlineFlyboy7974 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 1540 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4392 times:

looking at the flight times, it doesn't look like an hour time diff between the two a/c, and it were neglible, yes, I would rather fly on a Dash8 over a CRJ-200, let's say within 30min. To fly on a CRJ and save 30 doesn't compare to the neckache and headache I have for the rest of the day

User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13251 posts, RR: 100
Reply 9, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4384 times:
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Quoting Flyboy7974 (Reply 8):
To fly on a CRJ and save 30 doesn't compare to the neckache and headache I have for the rest of the day

I have a serious question about the CRJ. I have found the ERJ seats ok (on CO), but CRJ seats... lacking. Is that pure Mesa (seat selection) or is there a certain thin padding seat style that is common in the CRJ's?

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineMikephotos From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2923 posts, RR: 54
Reply 10, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4319 times:

Who's Dash-8's were going to do the route?

Mike


User currently offline73G From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 128 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4264 times:

Quoting MajorNelson (Reply 6):
You'd rather fly 1:45 to 2:00 on a noisy Dash 8-100 slowpoke rattletrap than 1:00 on a CRJ-200?

We're talking about a relatively short flight segment here, which happens to be heavily restricted by ATC constraints to altitude and airspeed. The time enroute difference is negligible. Given those circumstances, the Dash 8, in my opinion, is much more comfortable than the CRJ.


User currently offlinePVD757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3414 posts, RR: 16
Reply 12, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4242 times:

Quoting 73G (Reply 11):
We're talking about a relatively short flight segment here, which happens to be heavily restricted by ATC constraints to altitude and airspeed. The time enroute difference is negligible. Given those circumstances, the Dash 8, in my opinion, is much more comfortable than the CRJ.

The ATC issue is very valid, and for me, the PVD-JFK service on DH8s will be much more reliable than on a CRJ (and presumedly progitable on a 150 mile segment). The DH8's can fly below 10,000 enroute and won't need the 250kt speed restrictions that jets get since it won't go much faster than that anyway. When the CRJ gets a EDCT, many times the DH8 can go when ready.


User currently offlineCRGsFuture From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 536 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4200 times:

Why are some people against props, I flew in an ATR-72 and boy I loved it. What props feel like a roller coaster if you fly in the back? All I can say is I loved every minute of my prop ride, but maybe that's me.


Flying you to your destination; your girlfriend to her dreams.
User currently offlineNLINK From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4167 times:

I hate the SF340, old, noisy, slow. The DH8 and ATR aren't to bad but will go out of my way to fly on a jet

User currently offlineFutureFO From Ireland, joined Oct 2001, 3132 posts, RR: 21
Reply 15, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4136 times:

It would have been the transplanted MESA DH8's from PHX. However to put the CRJ is a big mistake. Go Emb for Emb. Put a good airplane on the run. The 145/170 would have been the better choice.



Sean from MCO and SDF



I Don't know where I am anymore
User currently offlineUSPIT10L From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 3295 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4110 times:

Quoting TIA (Reply 2):
I seriously don't understand what people have against turboprops. Until last fall I had never flown in an RJ or turboprop, but having flown on both numerous times since then, I can't say that there is a noticable difference in comfort between them. In fact, I would take a Dash 8 over an RJ any day. The ERJ seems to narrow to me, and on the CRJs the windows are too low. Plus, I love being able to look at the landing gear of the Dash 8 from inside the plane.

My complaints about turboprops have nothing to do with passenger comfort. I've heard just as many compliments about DH8s as I have about ERJ-145/135s. But if DL thinks they can flyhese planes with the bags passengers take overseas, good luck. We could barely get the bags on the CRJs to JFK. A Dash 8 has half the weight of a CRJ. There's no way these flights will work, because the weight restrictions would kill it. Just build up JFK with OH, DL. Save yourself the problems of multiple aircraft.



It's a Great Day for Hockey!
User currently offlineEvan767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2957 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4097 times:

Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 13):
Why are some people against props, I flew in an ATR-72 and boy I loved it. What props feel like a roller coaster if you fly in the back? All I can say is I loved every minute of my prop ride, but maybe that's me.

Well I don't know about you guys, but I had the worst first impression with props. About 6 years ago, in January of 2000, I was flying JFK-RIC on a prop and it made me sick to my stomach. The vibration was so horrible and I honestly had the barf bag in my hand until finally we landed (thank god) and the nausous ride settled down. The flight was so incredibly slow I just wanted it to be over so bad. It was that one flight that I have felt the sickest on in my life. Oh, and I was flying from MUC-RIC (note:international). So, I don't know why you people love props so much. At least in a CRJ, the ride is quicker so you don't have to put up with the pain as long.



The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
User currently offlinePVD757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3414 posts, RR: 16
Reply 18, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4080 times:

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 16):
But if DL thinks they can flyhese planes with the bags passengers take overseas, good luck. We could barely get the bags on the CRJs to JFK. A Dash 8 has half the weight of a CRJ.

without the time to look up the actual numbers, I'm fairly sure the payload differance between a CRJ and DH8 are'nt as great as you'd imagine. The baggage compartment is roughly the same size from what I recall and you have 13 less passenger's stuff in a DH8. The DH8 is well suited for short field take-offs too which would play into my understanding that it should be able to handle lots of bags and full pax on short hauls(which DL will be using them for). Perhaps a seasoned ramp agent and/or someone with access to the aircraft specs could spell me correct or way off on this one...


User currently offlineMikephotos From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2923 posts, RR: 54
Reply 19, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 4046 times:

Quoting FutureFO (Reply 15):
It would have been the transplanted MESA DH8's from PHX. However to put the CRJ is a big mistake

Damn, that would have been nice to see (shoot) at JFK....

Mike


User currently offlineFlyguy1 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1739 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3980 times:

Quoting Mikephotos (Reply 19):
Damn, that would have been nice to see (shoot) at JFK....

Mike

Mike,
The Mesa DH-8's will still be at JFK this summer, just not on the JFK-RIC route.



727, L1011, MD80, A300, 777-200, 737-300, 737-700, 747-400, 757-200, 737-800, A320. E190, E135, 767-200, CRJ9
User currently offlineTIA From Albania, joined Mar 2006, 524 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3966 times:

Quoting MajorNelson (Reply 6):
You'd rather fly 1:45 to 2:00 on a noisy Dash 8-100 slowpoke rattletrap than 1:00 on a CRJ-200? You're whacked.

Nonsense! I have flown the same segments on both RJs and turboprops with minimal flight time difference. The time difference is never that big.


User currently onlineGoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 6070 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3959 times:

Quoting PVD757 (Reply 12):
When the CRJ gets a EDCT, many times the DH8 can go when ready.

ATC isn't selective when it comes to flow programs; when flow happens, everyone gets hit.



Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
User currently offlineMajorNelson From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3942 times:

Quoting Flyboy7974 (Reply 8):
looking at the flight times, it doesn't look like an hour time diff between the two a/c, and it were neglible, yes, I would rather fly on a Dash8 over a CRJ-200, let's say within 30min. To fly on a CRJ and save 30 doesn't compare to the neckache and headache I have for the rest of the day

So, you just like the Dash 8 as a plane better than a CRJ. Fine.

But you get a 'headache' from a CRJ and NOT a Dash 8 rattletrap? Hmmmm ..
And what's with the 'neckache'? For the rest of the day? Drama queen.


User currently offlinePVD757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3414 posts, RR: 16
Reply 24, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 3910 times:

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 22):
ATC isn't selective when it comes to flow programs; when flow happens, everyone gets hit.

Thats not true all the time. At times, aircraft that can fly above or below certain altitudes will not see the same delays as others that cannot. While rare, tower enroute clearances can get you going way before going with the airways. It all depends on the reasons for the delay program.


25 JFKLGANYC : JFK rarely, if ever, has ATC flow control. Whether it's a Dash 8, CRJ, or ERJ isn't much of an issue when it comes to JFK. It isn't LGA and it sure is
26 73G : BS! While not as prone to GDP's as LGA or EWR, JFK has a very high number of flow control days...especially in the summer. In the past, the reason ha
27 TIA : First of all, you lose all credibility when you call the Dash 8 a rattletrap. Secondly, he was refering to the fact that on the CRJ you have to lower
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