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Boeing Vs Douglas  
User currently offlineCricket From India, joined Aug 2005, 2967 posts, RR: 7
Posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5458 times:

Everyday the frequency of the Airbus v Boeing battles on this forum astound, amaze and humour me. As they do all non-aligned (so to speak) members. But I was wondering, back in the day what would Boeing vs Douglas arguments have been like. Say when Boeing was coming out with the 747, did PR machinery on both sides go batty? Are there any grey-haired people out there who are in the know?


A300B2/B4/6R, A313, A319/320/321, A333, A343, A388, 737-2/3/4/7/8/9, 747-3/4, 772/2E/2L/3, E170/190, F70, CR2/7, 146-3,
52 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4818 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5452 times:

I wouldn't know as I'm not that old but I'd imagine the DC8 vs B707 debate would have been a bit like A340 vs B777.


56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlineIrobertson From Canada, joined Apr 2006, 601 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5410 times:

I'd be still willing to battle out a DC8 vs 707 topic!  Smile

User currently offlineClassicLover From Ireland, joined Mar 2004, 4634 posts, RR: 23
Reply 3, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 5334 times:

Quoting Irobertson (Reply 2):
I'd be still willing to battle out a DC8 vs 707 topic!

So would I... and throw the VC10 into the mix just to annoy people  Smile



I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 4, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 5297 times:

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 3):
So would I... and throw the VC10 into the mix just to annoy people

IIRC the VC10 vs b707 sparked quite some controversy at the time in the UK, especially because BOAC went for the 707 is large numbers (even though with the RR engines to appease the politicians) but many still felt BOAC should have gone for the Super VC10, which was very much loved by pax and crew.

Mind you, I have this info from books, as I am not that old (28) to know what exactly happened back then.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineBmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 5270 times:

Wasn't the VC-10 more like the MD-80 or did possess long-range capability to fit in the 707 category? The T-tail certainly made it look like...opps I mean't the Soviet IL-62!!   

[Edited 2006-04-13 15:22:58]


The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 6, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 5254 times:

Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 5):
Wasn't the VC-10 more like the MD-80 or did possess long-range capability to fit in the 707 category? The T-tail certainly made it look like...opps I mean't the Soviet IL-62!!

No IIRC the Super VC10 had similar capacity, and a bit less range than the 707-320, but certainly not a MD80. The VC10 and IL62 resemble each other indeed, because they were designed for the same mission.(short field ops) Who knows, there might have been some espionage going on.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlinePtrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3927 posts, RR: 19
Reply 7, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5226 times:

Quoting Kappel (Reply 6):
Who knows, there might have been some espionage going on.

MI6 stole the Il-62's blueprints?  biggrin 

Seriously, I think that's nonsense. You give the anwswer yourself:

Quoting Kappel (Reply 6):
they were designed for the same mission.



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 8, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5185 times:

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 7):
MI6 stole the Il-62's blueprints? biggrin

Seriously, I think that's nonsense. You give the anwswer yourself:

I wouldn't say nonsense, it is a possibility given the striking resemblence. That's why I said who knows. You and I certainly don't know for sure, or are you an ex KGB agent?  box 



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2148 posts, RR: 16
Reply 9, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5112 times:

I adore the MD Super 80s and DC-9s. Not is much the DC-10 and MD-11. Especially when compared to Airbus and/or Boeing wide-bodies of that time.

I don't think MDD ever really made another mega-product after the DC-9/MD-80s. Incredibly basic, yet charming airliners.

For short hop flights, not more than 90 minutes I'd always choose a MD-80s over a B737 classic.

This is simply my opinion and how I perceive the different models. YMMV.

cheers

Asturias



Tonight we fly
User currently offlinePtrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3927 posts, RR: 19
Reply 10, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5075 times:

Quoting Kappel (Reply 8):
are you an ex KGB agent?

How did you find out?  Smile

OK, I'm not exactly sure, but I do know that Russia has very capable aircraft designers and it annoys me that every time they design something remotely resembling a Western aircraft, the explanation is espionage.
I'm sure spying occurs, but then you steal the wing profile or some complex detail like that.
There are so many Western aircraft resembling each other.
I don't think the Dutch stole the DC-9 blueprints to produce the F28.



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 11, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5057 times:

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 10):
OK, I'm not exactly sure, but I do know that Russia has very capable aircraft designers and it annoys me that every time they design something remotely resembling a Western aircraft, the explanation is espionage.

No, don't get me wrong, I certainly am not implying that russian designers are incapable of designing very fine aircraft, especially in the soviet era, when they had more funds available. Nor was it a real implication that it actually happened. A lot of aircraft resemble each other, like you mentioned the F28 and DC9 right down to the 5 abreast config. It doesn't have to espionage, they just saw a good idea (like aft mounted engines) and went to develop a similar aircraft themselves.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineBravo45 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2165 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 5013 times:

Well there couldn't be Douglas vs Boeing rants these days as Boeing owns Douglas. As for the the time they were neck in neck, Douglas during and after the WWII the bigger better and more successful of the two. Their fortunes really went down when Boeing came up with the new 747 while Douglas went for 3 engines with the DC-10 which was competing with the L-1011. DC-10s had the incidents and the crashes which seriously effected its reputation, and we all know what happened after the AA-191 crash.
I wonder how many have seen the crash investigation documentary about the AA-191. I do feel bad for Douglas.


User currently offlinePtrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3927 posts, RR: 19
Reply 13, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 5013 times:

Copying an idea is legal, as in writing or photography  Smile

As to the topic, I interviewed a Boeing salesman a few years ago, and he said that rivalry and personal relations between Boeing and Airbus employees were just as good or bad as those between Boeing and Douglas had been.

He was pretty relaxed about the other side, unlike all the A and B groupies here. I wish they'd preserve their energy for their local football team.



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineFlagshipAZ From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3419 posts, RR: 14
Reply 14, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4994 times:

In my view, the first head-to-head jetliner battles would look like this....

707 vs DC-8 vs Comet
VC-10 vs IL-62
727 vs Trident vs Tu-154
Caravelle vs Bac-111 vs Tu-134
DC-9 vs 737 vs Mercure
Concorde vs Tu-144
747 vs L-500
DC-10 vs L-1011 vs A300

These were all first generation jetliners. All classics to say the least. Again, all IMHO. Regards.



"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 15, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4994 times:

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 12):

What also didn't help at Douglas was the fact they didn't have competent managers. They had great engineers, but management wasted a huge sum of money on useless derivatives (dc9-20 and -40) that hardly sold, and they lost money on the dc9 program (or was it the md 80 program) even though sales were huge. I have this out of the book "Douglas Twinjets", I forgot who wrote it. Too bad really, I love douglas planes, from the DC9 to the MD11. (never flew the props of course, too young for that)

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 13):
Copying an idea is legal, as in writing or photography

Haha, I know I know, ik geef me gewonnen...  checkeredflag 



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2826 posts, RR: 42
Reply 16, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4980 times:

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 10):

OK, I'm not exactly sure, but I do know that Russia has very capable aircraft designers and it annoys me that every time they design something remotely resembling a Western aircraft, the explanation is espionage.

Perhaps it's because Russia had such a steller record with commercial and millitary espionage? I do remember coming across a reference recently to a dedicated program inside of the secret service organs to steal technology from the west. In particular they were interested in ICs (integrated circuts -- it was the mid 80s before Russia's capacity here really took off), aluminum fabrication and engines (with Rolls Royce being a particular target).

That seems to me to be pretty clear evidence that Russia really didn't have a "NIH" problem.


User currently offlinePtrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3927 posts, RR: 19
Reply 17, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4967 times:

Sorry for trotting on, Sergio  Wink

Quoting FlagshipAZ (Reply 14):
747 vs L-500





I didn't know that one...



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineBravo45 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2165 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4948 times:

Quoting Kappel (Reply 15):
(never flew the props of course, too young for that)

Same here  Sad
I would so love to fly the DC-3 or something. I'll look for the book you mentioned, I'd love to read more about their demise. Thanks.


User currently offlineFrugalqxnwa From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 565 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4939 times:

Quoting Kappel (Reply 8):
I wouldn't say nonsense, it is a possibility given the striking resemblence. That's why I said who knows. You and I certainly don't know for sure, or are you an ex KGB agent?

So, now the question is how much espionage did Airbus do on the IL-86/96 in order to come up with A340? The argument runs both ways, Russian designers are just as capable as western designers; they were for the most part limited by a system that didn't allow for radical innovation in technology except when the West already had or was working on the technology.


User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6484 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4893 times:

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 16):
Perhaps it's because Russia had such a steller record with commercial and millitary espionage? I do remember coming across a reference recently to a dedicated program inside of the secret service organs to steal technology from the west. In particular they were interested in ICs (integrated circuts -- it was the mid 80s before Russia's capacity here really took off), aluminum fabrication and engines (with Rolls Royce being a particular target).

Right. The story (well documented by The History Channel, among others) with R-R was that some Soviet bureaucrats were on a tour of the Rolls Nene plant. They wore specially manufactured boots on the tour that allowed the boots to pick up metallurgical shavings for analysis back in the Motherland.

And with regard to the IC tech...there was a book a few years ago entitled At the Abyss: An Insider's History of the Cold War. The CIA managed to penetrate a Soviet effort to steal ICs from the U.S. These ICs were to be used to control oil pipelines. Anyhow, the CIA made subtle changes to the ICs so that, in testing, the ICs would perform as intended. In production, the ICs were designed to fail catastrophically. The result was the largest non-nuclear detonation in recorded history. It was kept secret by the Soviet state. Anyhow, it's well documented now.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlinePtrjong From Netherlands, joined Mar 2005, 3927 posts, RR: 19
Reply 21, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4841 times:

I trust that the Soviets spied for technology. My point was that you don't need to steal a concept like that of the VC10.

By the way, I just found out the Il-62 first flew in January 1961, 18 months before the VC10. biggrin 

Quoting N328KF (Reply 20):
the CIA made subtle changes to the ICs so that, in testing, the ICs would perform as intended. In production, the ICs were designed to fail catastrophically. The result was the largest non-nuclear detonation in recorded history.

 rotfl 
I don't believe a word of that.
What detonation?



The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6484 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4826 times:

Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 21):
I don't believe a word of that.
What detonation?

As you wish. The book was written by Thomas C. Reed. He used to be Secretary of the Air Force. The guy who pulled it off is Gus Weiss, who worked at the White House under Reagan. The incident was publicized by The Washington Post: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4394002. Just because it is dramatic doesn't make it false.



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlineBDL2DCA From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4815 times:

Quoting FlagshipAZ (Reply 14):
DC-9 vs 737 vs Mercure

Come on! There's no three-way battle there. Wasn't the Mercure so heavy and range limited that nobody other than UTA bought them, and they were only used on domestic flights within France?



146,319,320,321,333,343,722,732,733,734,735,73G,738,744,752,762,763,772,ARJ,BE1,CRJ,D9S,D10,DH8,ERJ,E70,F100,S80
User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 24, posted (8 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4805 times:

Quoting Irobertson (Reply 2):
I'd be still willing to battle out a DC8 vs 707 topic! Smile

Same here. No contest, the DC-8 was then, and is now the superior aircraft. DC-8s are still in wide service. DC-8 was longer, flew farther, with more people, in more comfort than 707. Simply put, the boys in Long Beach made the best plane flying at the time.

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 3):
So would I... and throw the VC10 into the mix just to annoy people Smile

I think VC10 would get quickly written off as unpopular and inferior. VC10 kind of reminds me of L-1011, nothing so much wrong with the aircraft, it just was eclipsed by its competition.


The DC-9 was one of the greatest jetliners ever to fly. Just ask NW, they still have plenty of those things flying. Trust me, DC-9 is the loudest thing to fly out of MSP. I can tell one over my house from in bed. The DC-10 was profitable and scared Boeing enough they came up with 747SP. MD-11, once it was revised with its improved performance package, was a good competitor to 777 and A340. I think ultimately, it would never have sold many MD-11s though, as competing against 777 is challenging.

I loved Douglas. They built their aircraft to a higher standard. Look at how many of their old birds still fly. DC-8s, DC-9s, and DC-10s all still many aircraft flying.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
25 TriStar500 : You are right about that except for the small fact that Air Inter was the unlucky carrier of choice for the Mercure fleet.
26 TomFoolery : Lets not forget the Convair 880/990's. They were quite a nice ride (back in the day).
27 Post contains images N328KF : The only reason more 707s aren't still more widely used is because USAF bought a lot of them and parked them in the desert for cannibalization. This
28 Ptrjong : Oh, well, maybe there's even some truth in it, no problem. What made me laugh, apart from the good story itself, is your certainty that every comma o
29 Areopagus : Inferior in terms of fuel consumption, as it was designed for operating out of short, hot, high airfields. I read a Flight International article in t
30 Pgv : You beat me to it! The 990 was one hot bird capable of running .91 all day long. But what a fuel bill that would produce today. I don't quite buy int
31 Post contains links N328KF : Buy into it or not, but USAF acquired 250 previously airworthy 707s for this purpose. How much of a difference do you think that would make in the br
32 Post contains links and images Kappel : I looked it up for you. It's called "Douglas Twinjets" by Thomas Becher. ISBN 1-86126-446-1. It's a great book, covers the whole DC 9 family, 'till t
33 FlyDreamliner : To this day, the fastest subsonic airliner ever, capable of .91-.92, and that was using the famously smokey GE CJ-805 turbojets (not turbofans, turbo
34 Irobertson : I looked into the thrust of the turbojets on the Convairs and they were only about 12 or 13 thousand lbs a piece. Relatively low compared to the bigg
35 AviationAddict : How could you say it's nonsense? Look at all the planes the Soviets copied from the West over the years. The B-29, the DC-3/C-47, even the Space Shut
36 Saturn5 : That is true but it doesn't prove anything. Tu-144 also flew before the Concorde and we know how well the Tu-144 project followed the Concorde develo
37 Post contains images RC135U : I understand that the 707's weakness vs the later DC-8s was the landing gear, in that the 707's lower/shorter gear did not allow for much stretching
38 FlyDreamliner : 737 feels that same problem, I'm amazed they could stretch 739ER as far as they could. As for 757, they sure did learn, that thing sits on top of a re
39 RC135U : I think when the NG series was produced with the new wing, the landing gear was lengthened to allow for stretching the frame.
40 KBGRbillT : If it's superiority is so apparent to you then why did the airlines favor the B707/720 with about 855 built versus the aprrox. 555 DC-8's built. (Not
41 Geoffthomas : The DC-8 was clearly superior to the 707 once its range was fixed. The 707/720 outsold the DC-8 because it was cheaper -thanks to a military contract
42 PillowTester : I was under the impression the VC10 was an awesome aircraft that was VERY popular with pilots and passengers, only not so much so by the companies run
43 Ptrjong : Correct, and I actually believe the VC10 had a long design history. It just amuses me that people assume that the VC10 was first. And the VC10 was no
44 Cricket : Lots of points have been raised, but while the 707 remained popular with passenger usage - until the USAF bought so many fuselages and even after that
45 Ptrjong : The VC10 was good from short runways, but longer runways were built everywhere to accomodate the 707 and DC-8. Maybe the DC-8 has more cargo capacity
46 BDL2DCA : Actually, the C-135 platform and the B707 are not the same plane. They are very similar, hence why the USAF bought a lot of 707s for spares, but they
47 Jwenting : Il-62 forever. ex?
48 Cricket : What I mean to say is that other than the 747 - few Boeing aircraft (maybe the 757 today) have been as popular as douglas aircraft for cargo. Maybe M
49 Leskova : All I can say is that the DC3 (SAA Historic Flight - flight around Durban from/to Durban's Victoria Airport sometime between 1998 and 2000) and B707 (
50 TAN FLYR : I disagree..the last of the 707's retired enmass was with TWA in late 1983. AA had retired them in October of 1981. (at its's 707 peak TW operated cl
51 KBGRbillT : So once the DC-8 was "fixed" in order to have comparable range to the 707 then it was superior. I'm sure the back and forth game of improvements coul
52 N328KF : If more 707s were available for civilian use, you'd see them competing for space in cargo carrier fleets. See: UPS and DHL DC-8.
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