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Jetblue & Less Competitive Routes?  
User currently offlinePensacolaguy From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 546 posts, RR: 1
Posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4256 times:

In several nationwide newspapers I have read that Jetblue is:

1. "Looking at small to mid-sized markets that are relatively untapped in terms of low-cost and non-stop service". (Bryan Baldwin, JetBlue spokesman.)

2. "Jetblue aims to minimize the red link by flying more short-haul routes, serving airports with FEWER rivals and raising fares. (MSNBC)

But yet, almost every city Jetblue serves currently HAS non-stop service to the NYC area (EWR,JFK,LGA). On one or more carriers with regional jets or mainline equipment.

Take for example recently announced CLT-JFK:
Route Airline Aircraft Frequency
CLT-EWR Continental ERJ 7x
CLT-EWR US Airways B733,B734,CR7,CR9 9x
CLT-LGA US Airways A319,A321,A320,B733.CR7 10x
CLT-LGA Delta CRJ 3x
CLT-LGA American ERJ/ER3 5x
CLT-JFK Delta CRJ 2x

Typically the more airlines that serve a route, the harder it is to make a profit on it. Competitive forces and customer needs also can force an airline to consider adding UNPROFITABLE flights.

Why start this topic? This topic needs to be debated. I hope someone agrees with me/gets my point. Or at least explain why Jetblue...Says one thing but does another

Disclaimer: Just my two cents. Don't have to agree.

40 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineIloveboeing From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 796 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4248 times:

I think the main thing that JetBlue needs to do is raise the fares on the transcontinental routes-----that's where they're really losing money.......they can keep the fares lower ($39, $49, $59, etc) on the short-haul routes because it costs them less......but the $99 and even $149 O/W on the transcon has to stop if they want to be profitable.

User currently offlineJerseyGuy From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 2002 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4229 times:
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Quoting Iloveboeing (Reply 1):
.......they can keep the fares lower ($39, $49, $59, etc) on the short-haul routes because it costs them less......but the $99 and even $149 O/W on the transcon has to stop if they want to be profitable.

No way will they get away with fares beginning at over $149 OW ($298RT) on transcons, no one will pay that unless its close to the low fares on other airlines, and no airline would let them do that even if its only to weaken B6 for competition on the $39-$59 routes.

The days of $400-500 RT starting fares for transcons are over.



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User currently offlineIloveboeing From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 796 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4210 times:

Quoting JerseyGuy (Reply 2):
No way will they get away with fares beginning at over $149 OW ($298RT) on transcons, no one will pay that unless its close to the low fares on other airlines, and no airline would let them do that even if its only to weaken B6 for competition on the $39-$59 routes.

All of the airlines need to raise their prices on the transcons to at least $199 O/W. Then they won't have to overcharge the short-hauls to compensate for the losses on the transcons.


User currently offlineBobster2 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4179 times:

Nobody flies JFK-MCI. No competition. This is why I hate jetBlue. It's obvious they should come to MCI but they don't.

User currently offlineCRGsFuture From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 536 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4163 times:

Quoting Bobster2:
Nobody flies JFK-MCI. No competition. This is why I hate jetBlue. It's obvious they should come to MCI but they don't.

No but YX does fly a MCI-LGA mainline route and to my knowledge at a solid cost as well. With roundtrip being in the $188-$207 range excluding tax which is pretty good.



Flying you to your destination; your girlfriend to her dreams.
User currently offlineDallas74 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4156 times:

CLT is a good move for JetBlue because it establishes them in another business market. They can't live on leisure fares forever and have to start flying to more places where they can generate a business following.

DFW, MCI, MSP, and IAH would make excellent follow up cities. Each of these cities could be opened from JFK, BOS, and IAD. Each is dominated by one carrier (perhaps not MCI), and the service would be most welcome on both ends.

On another note leisure passengers will not pay $199 OW to the West Coast any longer. They will wait for fare sales and connect if necessary, but the days of regular sales fares of $199 OW are over unless someone with alot of capacity goes out of business. Given the fact JetBlue's A320's have to make fuel stops in the winter it makes you wonder how economically feasible their transcon program really is.

Don't get me wrong their service is very good, but landing a plane adds cost to the flight and at $149 OW you're already on a thin margin.


User currently offlinePensacolaguy From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 546 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4146 times:

Quoting Bobster2 (Reply 4):
Nobody flies JFK-MCI. No competition. This is why I hate jetBlue. It's obvious they should come to MCI but they don't.

Your kidding right? Midwest Airlines flies MCI-LGA 3x Daily using 717 aircraft.And Continental Express flies MCI-EWR 4x Daily using ERJ aircraft. Must passengers would rather fly into LGA then JFK if they have a choice. (LGA is closer to Manhattan) How can you "hate" Jetblue if you've never flown them?


User currently offlineCasInterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4636 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4137 times:

Quoting Iloveboeing (Reply 3):
All of the airlines need to raise their prices on the transcons to at least $199 O/W. Then they won't have to overcharge the short-hauls to compensate for the losses on the transcons.

No they are all playing the same game, leisure travelers won't pay 400 to go coast to coast, but people traveling 300 mile round trip don't expect to pay 60 all the time either. It is all about averages. CASM, and RASM.

Jetblue right now is trying to rightsize their market and keep competitive. By opening RIC, PIT, JAX, RDU and CLT they are going for quick turnarounds into JFK and Boston for markets they are confident will work. I think all 5 markets were good entries. Some would say the markets were saturated already, but truthfully for each airport getting to BOS or JFK N/S required legacy travel, with Legacy prices.

This will be better for business travelers, and even leisure travelers from these cities.

I don't think any part of these decisions to start service stands out from the mission statement that Jetblue is giving to the press. These are competitive routes for Jetblue, since they have the CASM to make the Legacies life miserable. And starting up these services so rapidly is going to make the legacy airliners head swim.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineLt-AWACS From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4127 times:

Quoting Pensacolaguy (Reply 7):
and IAH would make excellent follow up cities

Wouldn't JetBlue pick HOU over IAH ? maybe not. I know there is the new ATA service from HOU hmmmm I have not idea really LOL but i'm interested now.

Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
Capt-AWACS, Watching you from 30,000 feet


User currently offlineCRGsFuture From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 536 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4109 times:

I think HOU would be great but is very much controlled by WN, something B6 and Neelemen want to stay out of, direct competition with WN. IAH is heading right for the gut of CO and to my knowledge their EWR operations are the worst money producing out of the three in NYC (Someone please correct me if I am wrong) so I think Houston in general is a crap shoot. Would rather see them go to SAT first, and see how the loads are there. Then work my way back to HOU or IAH.


Flying you to your destination; your girlfriend to her dreams.
User currently offlineCasInterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4636 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4079 times:

I think SAV and CMH might be the two most logical choices for the next two additions. Both did pretty well with FLYI.

[Edited 2006-04-14 06:19:56]


Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinePensacolaguy From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 546 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4063 times:

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 8):
By opening RIC, PIT, JAX, RDU and CLT they are going for quick turnarounds into JFK and Boston for markets they are confident will work. I think all 5 markets were good entries. Some would say the markets were saturated already, but truthfully for each airport getting to BOS or JFK N/S required legacy travel, with Legacy prices.

This will be better for business travelers, and even leisure travelers from these cities.

I don't think any part of these decisions to start service stands out from the mission statement that Jetblue is giving to the press. These are competitive routes for Jetblue, since they have the CASM to make the Legacies life miserable. And starting up these services so rapidly is going to make the legacy airliners head swim

Thanks for somewhat explaining Jetblue. Ok, Jetblue is going to fly JFK-CLT.And US Airways will most likely add additional flights to LGA. On a competitive market (more then one carrier on a route) both of the carriers usually price match each other (FARE WAR) and in the end someone always ends up losing money. (Ticket prices are to low for both or one of the carriers to make a profit on the route) How won't this happen at CLT, RDU, RIC etc. Will Jetblue be the priciest carrier from CLT to the NYC area? How does Jetblue expect to make a profit with stiff competition on all/most of there routes? Let's say for example a passenger is wanting to fly from CLT to either LGA or JFK...US Airways offers $200 RT to LGA on a mainline jet..And Jetblue offers $250 RT to JFK on a EMB-190...Price verses quality...I suppose


User currently offlineCRGsFuture From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 536 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks ago) and read 4030 times:

Quoting Pensacolaguy:
And Jetblue offers $250 RT to JFK on a EMB-190...Price verses quality...I suppose

Well remember the EMB-190 can hold up to 100 passengers which is the configuration B6 has it at, US has pretty much the same thing with the A319 anyway. Remember two big pluses though for US is frequency and CLT is a hub city giving passengers options, especially in the area of comfort with the lounges. B6 has a plus as the EMB-190 is a mainline jet(I hope you can except that as it holds over 100 passengers) and the fact that it offers the same services as the A322. In honesty it's really the passengers decision as to which is the best, but a focal point is weither you want the comfort in the air or the ground.



Flying you to your destination; your girlfriend to her dreams.
User currently offlineCasInterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4636 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks ago) and read 4030 times:

B6 plans to win by having the lower CASM to afford the flights. That is why the key to this is that they are opening all of these stations withing a few months of each other. It is going to be a bit too much for US Airways/ Ameircan/ Delta to throw up a NYC fight, especially with US Airways and Delta still in difficult situations. American could throw a fight if they wanted from RDU, but lately they seem to be content with protecting MIA and DFW.

As long as B6 is right about their CASM, the deal is sweet for them.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineJetBlueAtJFK From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1687 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (8 years 5 months 3 weeks ago) and read 4002 times:

All of these cities will work out great for them. From what I heard, AUS got off to a pretty good start but got much better and is doing great now, RIC started off ok but should pick up soon enough and now PIT CLT and RDU will be great cities for them. I think of they go into cities like this form now on they should be back in the green by 3Q 06.

B6jfk airplane 



When You Know jetBlue, You Know Better
User currently offlineSKYYBLUE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3957 times:

Quoting Dallas74 (Reply 6):
Given the fact JetBlue's A320's have to make fuel stops in the winter it makes you wonder how economically feasible their transcon program really is.

This is not a regular part of our winter operations. All airlines flying transcon A320 made similar stops. You can thank the unusually strong head winds, not JetBlue's "transcon program" Yeah sure

Quoting JetBlueAtJFK (Reply 15):
AUS got off to a pretty good start but got much better and is doing great now

True, this route seems to have picked up very quickly. At the start, the loads were 40-60% , now the average seems to hoover around the mid 90s.


User currently offlineCopaair737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3952 times:

Maybe B6 could start up OAK-TPA. It would be the only route connecting the two Bay Area's. I know TZ started up PIE-SFO and it was a miserable failure, but maybe B6 with smaller planes could make it work.
Also, any word on B6 starting up MIA? I remember the rumor, but haven't heard anything about it lately.

-Copa


User currently offlineFlyguy1 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1738 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3855 times:

Quoting SKYYBLUE (Reply 16):
True, this route seems to have picked up very quickly. At the start, the loads were 40-60% , now the average seems to hoover around the mid 90s.

IIRC, B6 recently upgraded on of the flights to an A320(?)



727, L1011, MD80, A300, 777-200, 737-300, 737-700, 747-400, 757-200, 737-800, A320. E190, E135, 767-200, CRJ9
User currently offlineCentPIT From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 990 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3787 times:

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 8):
By opening RIC, PIT, JAX, RDU and CLT they are going for quick turnarounds into JFK and Boston for markets they are confident will work. I think all 5 markets were good entries. Some would say the markets were saturated already, but truthfully for each airport getting to BOS or JFK N/S required legacy travel, with Legacy prices.

I agree with you completely! I am very happy for CLT and PIT especially. I hope jetBlue does extremely well in both markets!

Good luck B6!  goodvibes 



Pittsburgh International: US Airways---160 daily departures! (52 destinations)
User currently offlineDolphinflyer From United States of America, joined May 2005, 201 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3753 times:

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 14):
American could throw a fight if they wanted from RDU, but lately they seem to be content with protecting MIA and DFW.

AA is increasingly putting too many eggs in too few baskets (appropriate seasonal holiday quote!). Once DFW and MIA are "cracked" open by LCCs, AA will be in a big hurt!


User currently offlineRichierich From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 4266 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3701 times:

Quoting Flyguy1 (Reply 18):
IIRC, B6 recently upgraded on of the flights to an A320(?)

I think you are right... according to jetblue.com the middle JFK-AUS flight is currently A320. Yet when I put in a date for June, all three were E190s, so perhaps the A320 is "seasonal" to AUS?

Quoting SKYYBLUE (Reply 16):
This is not a regular part of our winter operations. All airlines flying transcon A320 made similar stops. You can thank the unusually strong head winds, not JetBlue's "transcon program"

As bad as it was, it wasn't like every flight had to stop. A.net has a way of blowing these things out of proportion. I flew to the left coast on JetBlue in February and I didn't tech stop either way (westbound flight looked pretty full too!).



None shall pass!!!!
User currently offlineFlyBaby From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 91 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3669 times:

In June, JetBlue will be starting 3 daily nonstops from JFK to JAX with the big planes after DL couldn't make that route work with 2 CRJ's per day... Makes one wonder.

[Edited 2006-04-14 16:54:22]

User currently offlineRichierich From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 4266 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3618 times:

Quoting FlyBaby (Reply 22):
In June, JetBlue will be starting 3 daily nonstops from JFK to JAX with the big planes after DL couldn't make that route work with 2 CRJ's per day... Makes one wonder.

I'm guessing JetBlue's fares will be a lot lower than Delta's ever were....



None shall pass!!!!
User currently offlineFlyBaby From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 91 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (8 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3599 times:

Quoting Richierich (Reply 23):
I'm guessing JetBlue's fares will be a lot lower than Delta's ever were....

In my exprience, actually Delta's fares were pretty competitive on this route. They competed with CO which flies big jets n/s to EWR. DL also flies 4x CRJ JAX-LGA.


25 SESGDL : B6's glory days are over. This airline is trying to deplete fares so heavily that not even they can operate profitably. With these continued expansion
26 Bobster2 : I have flown jetBlue, once every year since they started. The problem is that I have to take YX to LGA and then take a taxi to get to their hub at JF
27 Richierich : That, and LGA is not really conducive to operating a hub. Nobody will ever disagree that JFK is further from Manhattan than LGA is. It can take 30-45
28 CRGsFuture : Actually I think B6 picked JFK over LGA because to my knowledge it isn't slot controlled and two, it has room to grow. You have to realize, DL to JAX
29 FlyBaby : Yep, I am aware of that. One would think tough that with their often mentioned Intl' expansion then, if anything, they would increase, not cancel tho
30 B6JFKH81 : We picked JFK because of the dead spots that exist. JFK is mostly international traffic and that leads to particular windows and rush hours so to spe
31 B6JFKH81 : We have been mentioning going to the Carolina region for a while so I don't see how your statement makes sense. Are any of tese carriers classifed LC
32 Richierich : I am honestly surprised that PWM and JAX are both A320 cities for JetBlue. I would have thought that both, or at least PWM, were perfect E190 markets
33 Post contains images FlyBaby : Don't feel bad, I would have thought the same thing
34 KcrwFlyer : I thought US was shooting to be something like that?
35 HPRamper : US is shooting to be an LCC. America West was, US Airways was NOT, so now it's quite the task to gradually drop fares without losing profitability. It
36 Copaair737 : B6 could carve out a niche market in CLT owing to the lack of LCC's there. While USAir says they are now the "world's largest low fare airline", I wou
37 Post contains images Dallas74 : From my original post: "Given the fact JetBlue's A320's have to make fuel stops in the winter it makes you wonder how economically feasible their tran
38 JFKLGANYC : "CLT-JFK Delta CRJ 2x" How is that A LOT of competition? JetBlue enters a market where there is 1 competitor twice a day! That sounds like a route tha
39 CRGsFuture : Well the problem was that New York was viewed very differently than other areas. That at New York it would make sense that LGA would handle mainline
40 Post contains images JetBlueAtJFK : Yea but B6 at JFK serves a huge amount of people in that area along with DL, then LGA serves a whole different croud and CO has EWR which is a whole
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