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DL Future Fleet Plans  
User currently offlineIloveboeing From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 796 posts, RR: 0
Posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 10294 times:

I've been wondering what Delta is going to do about their future fleet, once their finances get cleared up. I know they've got a lot of MD-88s that need to be replaced. Could they order more 738s? Also, I think Delta should put winglets on its 738s, 752s, and 767s to save fuel. Do they have any plans to do this?

As with the 767 fleet, especially the oldest ones 767-300s (not the ERs), will Delta place a 787 order? If so, what version?

With interior changes, couldn't Delta move configure Economy with 32-inch pitch, minimum to provide the same comfort as Southwest? Shouldn't they also revamp BusinessElite and get lie-flat beds? I also think they need to put PTVs fleet-wide to compete with JetBlue.

Thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks.

65 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlyBaby From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 91 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 10240 times:

I think DL will order the 788 and maybe a few 789s at some point and they'll slowly add IFE to many of the smaller jets.

If I am not mistaken, Delta still has some deliveries to take on the 738.

I got a letter in the mail from them recently saying that starting in April they have started a revamp of BusinessElite, something about better seating and "improvements" but I am not sure what this means in practice.


User currently offlineCongaboy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 352 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 10156 times:

Two schools of thought when you pose this:

1/ Replace/consolidate by removing and replacing the oldest, most expensive aircraft...that would be the 732's and the MD80's now. The tricky part is reviewing the capacity and applying it properly to the current and future market. So what do they choose to replace these? 736? E190/E195? A319/A320?
2/ Concentrate on making the international service better and more extensive...so that would be replacement of the oldest 767's with 787's.

Could they afford to do both concurrently?



"Joey, you like movies about gladiators?"
User currently offlineFlyBaby From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 91 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 10112 times:

Well, doesn't Delta already have 50 738's on order and another 60 on option (and 168 rolling options)?

Even assuming that they don't excercise any of their options on the 738, the 50 738's could replace all of the 732 feet (currently 32 planes).


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 4, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 10056 times:

Its gonna be a long time until DL is in the position to order aircraft.....and any orders that do come will be for longhaul aircraft in connection with their international expansion, thus, 788s come to mind, but not until DL gets itself out of bankruptcy, has its costs under control, and has some type of business plan that will allow it to make money with $70/bbl oil. You are talking about billions and billions of dollar of new investment, DL at the moment is trying to figure out how to pay its bills.

The MD88s are quite young and are in no need of immediate replacement....DL cant even thing about new medium haul aircraft right now. The 763/764 fleet is also going nowhere for the time being

As for your other suggestions, BE is getting an update but no flat beds, DL will intergrate Song types features on longer main line flights, etc. It will take a while, dont forget that DL has huge financial problems to contend with and will so for years to come.


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 9937 times:

DL does have 5 777 and several dozen 738s on order and has not accepted or rejected the Boeing agreement.

The MD80 lease rates have come down 75% and P&W is scared to death of losing any more narrowbody aircraft (since they do not build an engine for the 737NG and only partially so on the A320) so the MD80 is a very economical airplane. DL mgmt has said they would lease further MD80s if they can be found.

Because of all of the bankruptcies, lease rates for many fleet types are down and DL will use the low lease rates to pick up used airplanes if they can be brought into the fleet quickly and inexpensively. Because the 757 was always most popular w/ US airlines, I could see DL picking up used 757s esp. ETOPS birds because DL's 757s are not ETOPS qualified.

No US airline is going to purchase new generation widebodies for their domestic system. There are too many int'l route needs for any US airline and the domestic market is too unstable to invest in airplanes that are probably too big under the best situation.

I still contend that the A350 could easily makes it way into the DL fleet if Airbus is willing to price it low enough. While the A350 has been knocked alot, it still would more than serve DL's needs. If Airbus is willing to provide some transitional aircraft very inexpensively (like the A340-500 or even the A330-200) that would transition until the A350 arrives, they could well clinch DL as a customer.

If Airbus wins an A350 order from DL, the 777 fleet would probably be sold in time although DL might convert the remaining value of its order book to 777s which they could get in 18 months and then sell them when the A350s arrive, possibly w/ guaranteed buyback rates by Airbus.

Boeing's best chance of gaining an order that DL will keep is if they produce a new generation 100 seater. If Boeing can't deliver, then the EMB190 is likely. Supposedly the new pilot agreement has a rate for it.

The 757/767 fleet constitutes half of DL's fleet and will be around until well after 2015.

And DL has said they intend to obtain financing to support aircraft acquisitions as part of their exit bankruptcy strategy. DL plans to exit BK in approx. 1 year from now.

[Edited 2006-04-14 19:05:39]

User currently offlineN160LH From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 280 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 9897 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 5):
ETOPS birds because DL's 757s are not ETOPS qualified.

They have 757 that are ETOPS rated (4 or 5 of them... I think ships 6901 - 6904)... And there 757s could be ETOPS rated they just arent...

N160LH



"I do alright up in the air, its down on the ground that I tend to mess up..."
User currently offlineJrlander From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 9877 times:

I would think an order for 787's will come before too long, even if they are mostly leased. If such an order materializes, I think they might also order some 787-10's. Having those planes instead of the 777-200ER's would be far more effecient, if they were to order 787-8's and 787-9's. But we'll see. I am not convinced that a stand alone Delta will still be a reality in the future, and a lot depends on if anything is secretly going on in the way of mergers.

User currently offlineCongaboy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 352 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 9847 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 5):
Because of all of the bankruptcies, lease rates for many fleet types are down and DL will use the low lease rates to pick up used airplanes if they can be brought into the fleet quickly and inexpensively.

This makes a hell of alot of sense...on a personal level, it makes much more sense to me to buy a slightly used vehicle coming off of a lease than it is to buy a brand new car...a similar approach could be used with aircraft. As long as the aircraft fits a given economical and technical profile (such as cost of operation, seat config, avionics package, ETOPS, etc), why buy new?



"Joey, you like movies about gladiators?"
User currently offlineLitz From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1766 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 9828 times:
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Concerning the MD80s ... consider this ...

What was the very, very first type to get the new interior ?

The '88s. That should tell volumes about which planes DL expects to stick around for a while ...

 Smile

Eventually they will order 787s to replace the 763's, but there's really not that much of a hurry to do so; the 763's they have are all getting the new interior and will be nice, bright and fresh once that's done.

What will be telling is if DL puts the IFE on the domestic 763's, like they plan for the 757s. If they do so, expect those birds to fly for the widget for some time to come.

- litz


User currently offlinePhollingsworth From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 825 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 9828 times:

Quoting Congaboy (Reply 2):
1/ Replace/consolidate by removing and replacing the oldest, most expensive aircraft...that would be the 732's and the MD80's now. The tricky part is reviewing the capacity and applying it properly to the current and future market. So what do they choose to replace these? 736? E190/E195? A319/A320?

Any 732 replacement will have to be accompanied by lower per seat crew costs. This means down scaling to the E190/195 operated by lower payed pilots or upscaling, even with the new agreements the 736 and 318 are just too expensive for DL to operate. As for the MD88s, there is no direct replacement available on the market. the 73W and 319 are smaller and the 738 and 320 are larger. As WorldTraveler pointed out, DL has just substantially lowered the costs of their leased MD88s.

As for replacing the 767s that DL has now, there is no direct replacement offered for the majority of their fleet, only the 764s can be replaced by equivalently sized aircraft (332, 358, 783, 788). Furthermore, all of these aircraft, except the 783 would be extremely limited in their flexibility in the current DL system, their wingspans are too large. What has caused DL to shy away from further 738 and 772 deliveries is that their crew costs were totally outrageous as compared to the remainder of DL's fleet. This meant that DL would only use them on routes for which none of the smaller aircraft were capable, or where the combinations of load factors and yields were such to maximize the returns, this has also partially applied to the 764.


User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6573 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 9828 times:

What about the 787-3? It is an ideal replacement for the domestic 767-300s, where the 787-8's range is not needed. Some will argue that there will be no replacement for the domestic 767-300s, and will be replaced by more frequent 757s. Some domestic destinations warrant widebody service, such as ATL-MCO/TPA/MIA/FLL/JAX/PBI. The 787-3 could also use existing 767 gates at ATL.


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlinePhollingsworth From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 825 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 9800 times:

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 11):
What about the 787-3? It is an ideal replacement for the domestic 767-300s, where the 787-8's range is not needed. Some will argue that there will be no replacement for the domestic 767-300s, and will be replaced by more frequent 757s. Some domestic destinations warrant widebody service, such as ATL-MCO/TPA/MIA/FLL/JAX/PBI. The 787-3 could also use existing 767 gates at ATL.


Geometrically the 783 would work, though capacity wise it is a 764 replacement, i.e. significantly larger than the 763. Also it does not have the range to complete the ATL/CVG-HNL missions.


User currently offline1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6573 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 9800 times:

Quoting Phollingsworth (Reply 12):
Geometrically the 783 would work, though capacity wise it is a 764 replacement, i.e. significantly larger than the 763. Also it does not have the range to complete the ATL/CVG-HNL missions.

For HNL flights, I personally think the 787-9 is a better aircraft. The seating capacity could actually depend on if Delta chooses a 2-4-2 or 3-3-3 seating arrangement.



The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineFlyBaby From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 91 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 9733 times:

Since all upcoming options for mid-sized long-haul equipment will have larger wingspan, wouldn't DL at some point need to start thinking about reconfiguring their ground setup in any case?

Replacing the 767s would also have the benefit of using larger ULD containers.


User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5264 posts, RR: 23
Reply 15, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 9682 times:

You know, maybe this is heresy, given DL's desire to "simplify", but I wonder if expanding the very-fuel-efficient-and-dirt-cheap MD90 fleet wouldn't be an option. I don't think the 90s are going anywhere soon, as a recent press release touted them as "popular" when indicating that they'd be used from SLC to Toronto. And there's no real market for them.

Delta has a history of making lemonade out of lemons when times are lean, as they did with other airlines' L1011s. I wonder if the benefits of picking up some super-cheap, modern, efficient airframes might make an MD90 expansion plausible.

As to someone's suggestion that 732s could be replaced with 738s -- I really wish some folks would take the time to try to understand subjects like fleet/route planning, but I appreciate the very gentle responses that I saw to that post. Is a.net becoming more civilized?


User currently offlineB777ER From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 548 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 9654 times:

IF rumors hold true in regards to the scope clause of the DL/DALPA TA...I would expect DL to replace its older narrowbody planes with regional type aircraft with cheaper pilots flying them.

User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 17, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 9642 times:

Its amazing that so many think DL is in the market for a new fleet at the moment......DL is still operating under the protection of the bankruptcy court and even the most optimistic projection is that they will be under the court's protection for atleast a year. Also remember that although the reps from the pilot's union have reached an agreement, DL's pilots still must vote on the deal.

The last thing on the mind of DL's management is new aircraft at this moment.


User currently offlineDelta4eva From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 344 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 9506 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 17):
DL is still operating under the protection of the bankruptcy court and even the most optimistic projection is that they will be under the court's protection for atleast a year.

Aircraft orders are a necessity for future expansion. They can quite easily make an order while in bankruptcy. In order to make money, you have to spend money. NW currently has 787s on order, and they are in bankruptcy. I can see the new pilot's agreement having pay rates for the 787 and I can see an order coming from DL as early as next year.



FLY DELTA JETS
User currently offlineCRJ900 From Norway, joined Jun 2004, 2205 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 9432 times:
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Quoting Delta4eva (Reply 18):
Aircraft orders are a necessity for future expansion.

How much more can they expand? They already have a HUGE fleet flying just about everywhere and Comair to fill in all the holes in the NA route system...

Didn't DL buy 120 x MD88, then one was lost and they replaced it with a new MD88? That shows how much they value the MD88s, I guess... As to the MD90, perhaps they should contact UNI Air (Taiwan) and JAL/JAS (Japan)... they are looking at replacing their MD90s - I'll bet they'll be happy to sell them to DL...



Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
User currently offlineAlitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4753 posts, RR: 45
Reply 20, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 9382 times:

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 19):
Didn't DL buy 120 x MD88, then one was lost and they replaced it with a new MD88?

What MD88 did they lose exactly?

-G



Some see lines, others see between the lines.
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 21, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 9353 times:

Quoting Delta4eva (Reply 18):

Aircraft orders are a necessity for future expansion. They can quite easily make an order while in bankruptcy. In order to make money, you have to spend money. NW currently has 787s on order, and they are in bankruptcy. I can see the new pilot's agreement having pay rates for the 787 and I can see an order coming from DL as early as next year.

NW's orders were placed before NW entered bankrutpcy, and thus far, has not chosen to reject those orders - how NW will get those new 787s financed upon delivery is something that we do not yet know. Look, I really do hope that DL flies its way out of the bankruptcy court and survives and grows, but new aircraft orders are something that DL cant really think about yet. Refining and expanding the route system is one thing, buying new airplanes to do it with is another.


User currently offlinePSA727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 974 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 9261 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 21):
new aircraft orders are something that DL cant really think about yet. Refining and expanding the route system is one thing, buying new airplanes to do it with is another.

It's nice to see someone here use reality as a basis for thought.

Boeing would probably not want to sign a deal with Delta until there
is a clear date to exit BK protection. (Remember UA was there for
3 years, but initially thought it would last less than 16 months or so)

And when that time does come around, there will be so many backlog
orders for the 787, it will be years before any of us will see one in
Delta colors.

Remember, there are plenty of "healthy" customers ready to order,
or have already ordered, this aircraft.
I don't think that Boeing is willing to risk those deliveries in order to
provide Delta the capabilities to advance their glorious expansion
internationally more rapidly.

And as for the 732 and 733 replacements, think smaller not larger.
an E-170 or E-190 works better to solve over-capacity issues than
does a 738.



fly high, pay low...Germanwings!
User currently offlineDALelite From Switzerland, joined Jun 2000, 1770 posts, RR: 25
Reply 23, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 9245 times:

For thouse of you who are fluent in german, here is an article about Delta
saying that they are planing to revamp biz elite class with new seats and
an advanced IFE system. also a new economy product will be reveald plus
new uniforms and domestic Song will be integrated in domestic mainline.
www.wilde.de/aw/home/Referenzen/Kund...23608/~bip/Delta_Air_Lines_3341588

regards DALelite



They loved to fly and it showed..
User currently offlineKC135R From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 728 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (8 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 8449 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 5):
I still contend that the A350 could easily makes it way into the DL fleet if Airbus is willing to price it low enough.

Is that even possible considering they signed a 25 year deal in 1997 to buy exclusively from Boeing? Or was that deal more symbolic than legal?

http://www.iht.com/articles/1997/03/21/delta.t.php


25 Exusair : Would be nice to see DL pick up the AS MD-88's that they are retiring. Since there is no post market for these planes, the lease rates will likely be
26 Dutchjet : " target=_blank>http://www.iht.com/articles/1997/03/...t.php The contract is not enforceable, the contracts that Boeing had with DL (and CO and AA) co
27 Thatplaneguy : N750AT 6902 N751AT 6901 N752AT 6904 N757AT 6903 I have flown these fine birds on The ATL - LIM route lots of times, and the interior configuration is
28 WorldTraveler : As I've posted elsewhere here, the MD90 is a viable alternative to MD80s; there just weren't enough of them built for there to be much of a market. An
29 FlyBaby : They have called it "a gentlemen's agreement" between Boeing and the airlines since a formal exclusivity agreement was not enforcable due to the EU o
30 Dl757md : NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! You may be referring to the one(the ship number escapes me at the moment) that lost a wing due to a collision with a truck and subs
31 Post contains images Boeingfanyyz : I think it will be a while before DL crosses that bridge, so to speak. On topic, however, I believe that DL certainly resort to the B787's as a repla
32 Dl757md : Yes, we have 21 764ERs in our fleet. DL757Md
33 Post contains images DeltaGuy767 : Greetings All, Here are my thoughts on DL's fleet strategy: Shorthaul: DL will stick with the MD-88's for at least ten more years, and the 738's for f
34 Wjcandee : Geez. No guts no glory, fer goodness sakes! Do you guys get paid just to stand around the hangar and eat donuts? More maintenance equals more mechani
35 N160LH : I am by no means saying you are wrong because I frankly do not remember... But how are different from the rest of the fleet...? N160LH
36 Dl757md : I totally understand what you are saying. However I don't subscribe to that shortsighted selfish mindset. Delta is in business to move people from po
37 B777-700 : Expect an order of 787 and 777 soon after the exit. Count on it.
38 Post contains images Litz : I was on one of these once, PHX-ATL ... there were no gaspers (the airvents above the seats), and the 2nd door area was configured differently - the
39 Thatplaneguy : I believe that the business class cabin was also different, but the interior layout may have been due to the fact that these 4 aircraft were built fo
40 Dl757md : I was talking to one of our pilots that I've known since long before either of us worked for Delta. He said that a leasing company (he named the comp
41 Av8rDAL : My Prescription for DL: --Upgraded/Overhauled Longhaul product including: BizElite upgrades to be on par with competition, PTVs in coach, option of XM
42 Aeroflot777 : I bit off topic, but.. What exactly is DL planning on doing with their 763ERs. What are they changing in the BizElite? Will it be lie-flat? What about
43 Stitch : While not in the cards in the near future, DL was strongly interested in the 772LR. While polar routing to China puts cities like PVG and PEK in the r
44 Dutchjet : I hope that you have many billions of dollars to contribute to the Delta Airlines Improvement Fund.....
45 Litz : AFAIK, biz-elite isn't getting lie-flat ... and most of the changes should go into place after the busy summer season. Right now, DL needs every piec
46 FlyBaby : The letter I got from DL said the new bizelite will be available starting this spring. Probably just a marketing ploy though meaning that you won't s
47 Aeroflot777 : Thanks, but will we see any concrete changes in the international 763ER economy class? Will those go leather too?? Aeroflot777
48 Litz : I think that's for the 777's that already have bizelite (or anything else that already has it) ... it's a LOT easier to mod existing bizelite than it
49 Alitalia744 : Yes, they'll be leather as well.
50 Antoniemey : Having cleaned FAR too many of those planes... I can tell you that those planes have slightly differently positioned lavs between F and Y and the fir
51 AvConsultant : Very True!! DL is not doing well at all. The labor issues are the least of thier worries. Clearing the $29 Billion in debt is thier biggest concerne.
52 1337Delta764 : Those aircraft do get filled often, and Delta doesn't have enough 757s to handle all the domestic widebody routes. For HNL, the only options are the
53 FlyBaby : True, though on the other hand, the 763ER and 764's might get the new bizelite first since they are going to be taken out of service for refitting wh
54 Alitalia744 : Hopefully they'll do something with the 757s. Those are the most uncomfortable birds in the entire damn fleet!
55 AV8AJET : You're right there!!! They are terrible, absolutely the worst in DL's fleet! They killed my back even when they did provide pillows. They really do n
56 Moman : I don't understand all the bickering to replace Delta's MD-88s. I've flown on them quite a bit in the past year and they are great jets. The interiors
57 Lono : I think DL has a way to go before they get any new metal... I mean.... DL borrows money to get metal.... they go bankrupt and can't pay for the metal.
58 EddieDude : Maybe they should turn to AM, since AM is gradually replacing most of its MD's with 737NG's (save for the newest -88's). Is it a possibility that DL
59 WorldTraveler : I doubt if DL wants to acquire any MD-80s that don’t have the same cockpit on the MD-88. I think DL will pursue some 757 ETOPS aircraft. While I don
60 Alitalia744 : I still disagree with you and would go as far as say that when DL does start posting profits, we'll see a bunch of their 'options' or 'rolling option
61 1337Delta764 : I really hope Delta doesn't put 757s to HNL. Where can Delta get ETOPS-rated 757s with P&W engines? Most (if not all) ETOPS-rated 757s are RR-powered,
62 Dalb777 : What about the ex-TWA 757's? Isn't AA getting rid of them soon? Maybe DL could pick those up. Are they ETOPS rated?
63 COA735 : The 787-9 compared to the 764 are almost identical in dimensions with the exception of the wingspan (approx. 20ft.longer on each side for the 789). D
64 Phollingsworth : The contracts were not voided, no organization that has the authority to do so took that action, they are also technically still enforceable, though
65 1337Delta764 : Here is what I would like to see: 757 replaced by largest member of Y1 767-300 domestic replaced by 787-3 767-300ER replaced by 787-8 767-400ER repla
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