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Boston As A Non HUB  
User currently offlineHjulicher From Liechtenstein, joined Feb 2005, 879 posts, RR: 2
Posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3484 times:

Can anyone explain why BOS - logan airport has never turned into a hub? It would seem sensible to me that a hub would sprout there since there is a respectable population base for the city, and it would be a good connecting point for flights to major US cities and europe? I know it's not ideally located, but it could connect NE cities? Is it because of the airport set up and layout? I know DL and AA have big bases there, but nothing to call it a real hub. Would it be sensible to set one up there? I just have no idea, and whenever I daydream about being a airline CEO and planner, I consider cities where I would have HUBS, and boston always comes to mind as being untapped and logical. Like wouldn't BOS, STL (relatively big city, losing HUB status), and some west coast city be perfect for an airline as HUB system? This is all hypothetical so I don't know... LOL.

Thanks


LH 442
39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineIloveboeing From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 796 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3484 times:

I'm not sure if Boston would have all the space to become a large hub. The longest runway is only 10,000 feet, so it doesn't look like the A380 would be viable to operate there either.

User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8358 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3448 times:

The primary reason why BOS can never be a hub is simple: geography.
BOS is too far up the northeast coast of the US to make it a viable connecting airport unless you're flying to/from Maine  Smile EWR is borderline acceptable as a hub as far as it's location and I have a feeling that if it was not for the huge catchment area that it serves, EWR would not be nearly the size that it is.

At best, BOS could be a much larger International gateway but there too it is limited because of the lack of customs and immigration facilities at the various terminals, forcing passengers to trek across the airport to connect to/from a domestic flight.


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 3, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3443 times:

1. Space limitations at the airport.

2. Terminal design at Logan is not very "Hub" friendly.

3. Most importantly, geographic location.....located in the northeast corner of the US, Boston's location could not offer many connection possibilties....to use an extreme example, it would not make sense to fly passengers from Atlanta to Boston to Cleveland. Boston could work as a "tranastalantic gateway".....this was attempted over the years by airlines such as NW and BN with minimal success, Delta was also recently thinking about doing this at BOS, and then they remembered that they already had an international gateway at JFK.

4. That US has a large hub at nearby PHL, CO maintains a large hub/gateway at EWR, that UA already has a large hub at IAD and that DL is once again expanding its gateway at JFK does not help the case for an airline to create a hub at BOS.

5. BOS, like LAX, is one of those cities that will have many airlines with a large presence......AA, DL and US are major players at BOS, JetBlue certainly has had a lot of interest in BOS in recent years, and BOS does serve a good number of European carriers.


User currently offlineAirwave From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 1117 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3436 times:

I think part of it because it is not central to the rest of the United States--whether geographically or demographically. NYC is only a few miles away (relatively speaking) and aside from having a larger population base, it has better geography and easier accessibility for the rest of the East Coast.

I used to wonder why BOS never became a great international gateway, but I went on over to the Great Circle Mapper and the difference from BOS-LHR and EWR-LHR is only 200 miles--not much.

Airwave  eyebrow 



When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26481 posts, RR: 75
Reply 5, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 3436 times:

Quoting Iloveboeing (Reply 1):
The longest runway is only 10,000 feet, so it doesn't look like the A380 would be viable to operate there either.

744s operate in and out of BOS every day. An A380 would not have a problem

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
That US has a large hub at nearby PHL

PHL is a lot less nearby to BOS than NYC is



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 6, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3413 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 5):

PHL is a lot less nearby to BOS than NYC is

I know where PHL, EWR, BOS and IAD are.......they are all within a few hundred miles of eachother on the eastern coast of the US.


User currently offlineYULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2179 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3413 times:

IIRC, both AA and NW have significant trans-atlantic operations out of BOS, so is BOS a real non-hub airport?

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 2):
EWR is borderline acceptable as a hub

Are you really talking about Newark, NJ ? If so, this is an airport located in the US # 1 urban area by population, economy and business traffic. I would qualify it as US's # 2 best location for an international hub after JFK instead. CO knows this, unlike NW, DL, US, UA who all do not have their # 1 hub near NYC and are all in some financial trouble...



When I doubt... go running!
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11600 posts, RR: 61
Reply 8, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3406 times:

As others have said, the reason that BOS has not developed into a real hub is mostly geography. Simply put, it is just too far north and east to really function as a good hub for anything except as a gateway to New England and perhaps Atlantic Canada. Other than that, it is just not well positioned to be a major hub. Now, as others have said, it can serve as a focus city for multiple carriers, as LAX does, and in the case of BOS, those carriers are AA, DL, US and B6. In addition, it can sustain substantial flights to Europe, mostly be AA, and also by a host of European carriers, because of where it is and how big an O&D market it is. However, even with Europe, BOS is constantly competing with New York (JFK and EWR) for flights to Europe, and 9 times out of 10, because New York is such an immense market, New York will win.

User currently offlineCadet57 From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 9085 posts, RR: 30
Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3386 times:

Quoting Iloveboeing (Reply 1):
The longest runway is only 10,000 feet, so it doesn't look like the A380 would be viable to operate there either.

Ya? So? whats the whale gotta do with BOS, the only chance they'd have of seeing it is if LH brought one in and thats rather unlikely as the largest BOS gets now is a 330/340... or a 744 in the summer... The A380 would not make or break BOS as a hub...

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
Delta was also recently thinking about doing this at BOS, and then they remembered that they already had an international gateway at JFK.

LOL, that and Crapport, sry massport wont give them Cus/Ins facilities in terminal A.... morons...



Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
User currently offlineFURUREFA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 802 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3377 times:

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 7):
IIRC, both AA and NW have significant trans-atlantic operations out of BOS, so is BOS a real non-hub airport?

Is 1 flight a day to AMS a significant trans-atlantic operation? I hope AA expands some more with it's 752s/763s into destinations such as FRA, MAD, FCO

Matt


User currently offlineB6FA4ever From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 816 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3273 times:

for me...SAN is the "West Coast BOS". same exact reasons why BOS is not a hub airport is just the same for SAN. Its (unfortunatly) geographically challenged. even though SAN is what, the 6th largest US city yet its own airport has less flights than other slightly smaller cities w/ big airport operations.

BOS would only be better as an int'l gateway but because of JFK/EWR...won't be as big a player in the transatlantic market. at least it has a very good O/D market!

~B6FA4ever


User currently offlineRobertS975 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 941 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3237 times:
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If you think about it, BOS has a fairly large trans-Atlantic route structure without being a hub.... it succeeds just on O/D alone.

User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26481 posts, RR: 75
Reply 13, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3189 times:

Quoting B6FA4ever (Reply 11):
SAN is the "West Coast BOS".

Except that San Diego has a bigger problem in that it's airport is woefully inadequate



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineSupa7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days ago) and read 3135 times:

(1) Fierce competition from all airlines. Yields at BOS are not super great.

(2) A reputation for corrupt local officials.

Even if no airlines make a true hub out of BOS, the major alliances battle it out there in grand style. BA/American, AF/DL, LH/US etc. BOS is a massive market and everybody wants a piece.


User currently offlineB6FA4ever From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 816 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days ago) and read 3133 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
Quoting B6FA4ever (Reply 11):
SAN is the "West Coast BOS".

Except that San Diego has a bigger problem in that it's airport is woefully inadequate

so sad...yet so true...


User currently offlineRwSEA From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3103 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days ago) and read 3120 times:

Quoting B6FA4ever (Reply 11):
for me...SAN is the "West Coast BOS". same exact reasons why BOS is not a hub airport is just the same for SAN. Its (unfortunatly) geographically challenged. even though SAN is what, the 6th largest US city yet its own airport has less flights than other slightly smaller cities w/ big airport operations.

You can't just look at the city population - you have to look at the Metro area population. And in that sense, SAN is much smaller than other metro areas that lack a large hub, including LAX, BOS, and SEA. The mentioned airports all have strong carriers, but they aren't necessarily huge hubs. And these cities all have the same geography issues as SAN.


User currently offlineJFKLGANYC From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3468 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days ago) and read 3090 times:

Reasons for BOS not being a hub:

1. Not a good location for a hub

2. Would be a good location for a transatlantic gateway hub but lives in the shadow of JFK and/or EWR

3. Major Players in BOS (AA, DL, B6, US) are also major players in the NYC area and are more focused on using their resources there:
-Larger Population
-Busiest Routes in the Country
-More money on business routes

PJ


User currently offlineUAL#1fan From United States of America, joined May 2001, 88 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (8 years 5 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3048 times:

Quoting B6FA4ever (Reply 11):
for me...SAN is the "West Coast BOS". same exact reasons why BOS is not a hub airport is just the same for SAN. Its (unfortunatly) geographically challenged. even though SAN is what, the 6th largest US city yet its own airport has less flights than other slightly smaller cities w/ big airport operations

I disagree. SEA is easily the West Coast BOS. Northwest and United have significant operations there, just like US, AA, and DL have in Boston -i.e., focus-city level, but not hub status. It's just too far to the northwest to serve as effectively as a good Pacific gateway like SFO and LAX do, plus LAX and SFO are located in much larger metropolitan areas.



United Air Lines -Mainliners Coast to Coast
User currently offlineB752OS From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1322 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (8 years 5 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2926 times:

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 17):
Reasons for BOS not being a hub:

1. Not a good location for a hub

2. Would be a good location for a transatlantic gateway hub but lives in the shadow of JFK and/or EWR

3. Major Players in BOS (AA, DL, B6, US) are also major players in the NYC area and are more focused on using their resources there:
-Larger Population
-Busiest Routes in the Country
-More money on business routes

It has been mentioned in here a few times about BOS going up against airports like PHL, EWR, and JFK for flights. I don't really think that is the case. As it has been stated, BOS is not in an ideal location geographically to sustain a domestic hub operation. Yes, it can work for flights to Maine and parts of Canada, but for 99% of the country. Add in the fact that BOS is does not have enough room to grow such that it could sustain a large increase in flights. I really don't think BOS is in the position where it wants to be a hub city for any airline wishing to use it as a gateway to Europe, nor do I think they are trying to pry flights away from NYC. PHL is a non-factor as the bulk of their system is in the east. It is pretty obvious that NYC is always going to be the gateway to Europe, so to say to try and compare the Boston market with that of NYC is crazy, everyone knows NYC hands down wins, nor do I believe Massport is under the assumption that airlines would want to seriously build up BOS in a manner that takes away from what the airlines down in NYC are doing.

For a non-hub city, BOS does have a large European flight network, non-stops to LHR, MAN(seasonal), CDG, SNN, AMS, FRA, MUC(seasonal), MXP, FCO(seasonal), ZRH, ARN, KEF and if you count PDL.


Even though there are not customs facilities in terminal B, I still believe AA could make flights to BRU and GLA work with 752s out of BOS.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26481 posts, RR: 75
Reply 20, posted (8 years 5 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2907 times:

Quoting UAL#1fan (Reply 18):
Northwest and United have significant operations there, just like US, AA, and DL have in Boston -i.e., focus-city level, but not hub status.

I disagree there. United has only a small handful of non-Brasilia, non-hub ops out of SEA (ANC, NRT and????). NW has their hubs (including NRT and AMS) HNL, OGG and???? BOS actually has significant P2P traffic from all three of the above mentioned carriers.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineZrs70 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 3170 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (8 years 5 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2898 times:

Quoting Hjulicher (Thread starter):
Can anyone explain why BOS - logan airport has never turned into a hub?

The premise here in not accurate. BOS HAS been a hub for quite a few airlines. But a FAILED hub. NW had a hub there. DL tried to maintian a hub. EA had a hub. But for all the reasons mentioned above, they didn't wor.



14 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2013
User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8358 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (8 years 5 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2836 times:

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 7):
IIRC, both AA and NW have significant trans-atlantic operations out of BOS, so is BOS a real non-hub airport?

I wouldn't call 1 flight a day for NW, significant  Smile
Even AA only has what? 3 or 4 flights a day. However, BOS is a significant international gateway. With over 200,000 international passengers a month and more international carriers than ATL, as an example.

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 7):
Are you really talking about Newark, NJ ? If so, this is an airport located in the US # 1 urban area by population, economy and business traffic. I would qualify it as US's # 2 best location for an international hub after JFK instead. CO knows this, unlike NW, DL, US, UA who all do not have their # 1 hub near NYC and are all in some financial trouble...

Correct. Either I didn't make my comment clear, or you didn't understand it correctly. NY/NJ's geographic location, like Boston, is not the most ideal as a hub. Certainly not as good as ORD, or DEN. The one reason why EWR is so succesfull is because of the population and economy of the region, not geography.


User currently offlineB752OS From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1322 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (8 years 5 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2704 times:

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 22):
I wouldn't call 1 flight a day for NW, significant
Even AA only has what? 3 or 4 flights a day. However, BOS is a significant international gateway. With over 200,000 international passengers a month and more international carriers than ATL, as an example.

Of course, without connecting traffic and the Sky Team alliance, ATL would only have one, maybe 2 international carriers at best, and DL would not be able to fly even a quarter of the international destinations they fly, especially Europe and Asia.


User currently offlineZone1 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 1035 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (8 years 5 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2623 times:

Would people also say weather is another problem for BOS? It always seems when there is any sight of rain, delays go into the hours. In the winter, well need I say more?


/// U N I T E D
25 Gunsontheroof : SEA has one thing going for it that Boston doesn't...the State of Alaska. Hence, AS has their hub at SEA to connect Alaska with the rest of the count
26 Tmarch291 : Location, Loacation, Location. The most succesful hub airports in the USA are in the central part of the country. (Ex. ORD, STL during TWA, DFW and DE
27 Zrs70 : I thnk that PIT is/ was the ideal physical location for a hub. Whether going from the northeast to the west or south, or from the south to the west, o
28 Mah584jr : I've heard SEA and SAN for the West Coast, and I'm in no position to argue, as I have never been to either, but I think that MCO is most definitely th
29 CRGsFuture : Besides the obvious facts as stated, I also think that New York and Philadelphia are more powerful business centers than Boston. Plus they have the Re
30 B752OS : Are you kidding me??? That's funny because the Sox sell out every game! The Red Sox are a huge attraction, as is Fenway Park. The Red Sox either lead
31 Hinckley : Depending on who is calculating the ranking, Boston is the number two or three financial center in the US. NY is obviously number 1 and San Francisco
32 Post contains images Steeler83 : Don't forget AA expanding there either!! I was about to post something regarding PIT; you are so right though. PIT is a terrific location for a hub;
33 Doninfc : Look at a map and it will be obvious. As others have said, BOS is in the NE corner of the US, and is impractical for most domestic connections. It can
34 ChrisNH : HEY! That's supposed to be MY line!!! Chris in NH
35 Post contains images Airbazar : Yeah, one booze cruise gone wrong and all of a suddent they're corrupt. They're Irish for chrisakes
36 Post contains images Steeler83 : Then pardon me while I do Riverdance, AYE LADS
37 Hjulicher : If you're in the midwest, and you want to Fly west, isn't Cincinnati, Detroit, Chicago all viable places to connect to go west? Cleveland is only a 2.
38 Steeler83 : I was actually referring to the city's economy and not necessarily air service... If Pittsburgh was to go bankrupt, you know how the people "ran for
39 Cltguy : Or an even quicker RDU-LAX route would be to connect in CLT...well there goes your middle america hub theory.
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