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Its Almost Official - LY Getting Airbus 330's!  
User currently offlineAmirs From Israel, joined Dec 2003, 1333 posts, RR: 4
Posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 16664 times:

There was a thread here talking about the possibility of EL AL buying Airbus A330's by flyprivate.
I thought EL Al was only trying to tease Boeing with the negotiations they were having with Airbus.
Apparently LY is going ahead and getting A330 (not A350) to replace the ageing 767's.
I am a bit upseat, I thought they would go with newer technology aircrafts.
I guess they really need the new planes, and they couldn't wait til 2010 to get 787's.  
Maybe they will be able to close a deal with Boeing to buy back the A330 and replace tem with 787 in 2010.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/a...tails.jhtml?sw=el+al&itemNo=706217

El Al to buy Airbus for first time
by Zohar Blumenkrantz


For the first time in its history, national air carrier El Al (TASE: ELAL) has decided to buy Airbus jets, snubbing its traditional supplier, Boeing.
TheMarker has learned that a delegation of high-level Airbus executives is about to sign a contract and financing arrangements with the heads of the Israeli airline.
A series of meetings, held under a veil of secrecy, ended Tuesday night at the Ramat Hahayal offices of the Borovich-Mozes group, which bought the controlling interest in El Al from the state.
It was agreed that Airbus financial experts will come to Israel immediately after Passover to iron out financial details of the deal.
Airbus has tried hard to hawk its planes to Israel, with no success until now.
According to the plan drafted last week in the secret meetings, El Al will buy eight A-330 Airbus aircraft, which will replace Boeing 767 passenger jets. The deal, including spare parts, is estimated at $500 million.
Banks associated with the European Union will provide credit to finance the deal, in a similar fashion to the credit El Al has received in the past for deals with Boeing. The loans and credit will be repaid over a 14-year period.
Airbus committed to a three-year delivery schedule from the date the deal is signed.
The deal is subject to the approval of the El Al board of directors as well as the board of the Airbus consortium.


[Edited 2006-04-16 12:05:35]

[Edited 2006-04-16 12:07:20]

164 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4358 posts, RR: 35
Reply 1, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 16607 times:

A great moral boost Airbus needs right now to win a first order of El Al !
Proves the A-330 isn't dead yet (if it was outdated crap El Al would have waited for the 787) and chances are high they will have a TAP/Finnair like deal to roll over to A-350s a few years later.



nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7428 posts, RR: 57
Reply 2, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 16579 times:

Quoting Amirs (Thread starter):
I am a bit upseat, I thought they would go with newer technology aircrafts.
I guess they really need the new planes, and they couldn't wait til 2010 to get 787's.
Maybe they will be able to close a deal with Boeing to buy back the A330 and replace tem with 787 in 2010.

Or maybe the A33X is simply the best aircraft for El Al ...

In any case, if ever the deal is concluded, we will not have to wait for long before reading on A.Net : " El Al got Airbus because Airbus is praticaly giving away its A330 "  sarcastic .


User currently offlineEHHO From Bulgaria, joined Dec 2005, 815 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 16554 times:

Wow, historic decision indeed, if it goes through. Hopefully not a one-time-never-again thing like AA. Airbus can use all the orders it can get now.


"Get your facts first. Then you may distort them as much as you please" -- Mark Twain
User currently onlineRedChili From Norway, joined Jul 2005, 2304 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 16539 times:

"El Al and Airbus? No way!"
"I'll believe this when I see it signed."
" If ElAl orders from Airbus I'll run naked down the local high street!"
"El Al getting Airbus aircraft is as probable as Embraer producing widebodies."
"El-Al needs an offer from A to show it to the B-folks, only to get the price at B right."
"Airbus and LY, thanks for the laugh."
"They are doing this to negotiate with Boeing. It will never happen."

A few quotes from a previous thread about the same question.



Top 10 airplanes: B737, T154, B747, IL96, T134, IL62, A320, MD80, B757, DC10
User currently offlineShamrock350 From Ireland, joined Mar 2005, 6373 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 16524 times:

Nice to hear some good news for Airbus! I'm sure the A330 will serve LY well and look great. It proves the A330 is still selling well and not because it's cheap but because its a great aircraft.

User currently offlineEHHO From Bulgaria, joined Dec 2005, 815 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 16491 times:

Quoting RedChili (Reply 4):
"El Al getting Airbus aircraft is as probable as Embraer producing widebodies."

2006: Original author of quote is a half-idiot.
2010: Original author of quote is a full idiot.



"Get your facts first. Then you may distort them as much as you please" -- Mark Twain
User currently offlineIMatAMS From Netherlands, joined Feb 2005, 317 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 16449 times:

I think that, surprising as it is, it's a quite logical development. The main issue I think is that though LY has had the 767's for a long time now, they never really liked the aircraft.. In the last few years they actually increased their number, but even before that, long ago there was talk about getting rid of them. They obviously didn't do it then, presumably 'cause, being tied to Boeing at the time, there was no real alternative, but now LY is a private company, faced with the fact that they have a bunch of old, rather worn out 762's and don't have any chance of getting 787's as replacement until after 2010. So apart from new 767's the 332 (I would presume they will be 332's because with the 772 the 333 would be a strange choice) is the only aircraft available to them on short notice...
I do think this will kill the 787 for LY on the longer term, though with both the 772 and 332 in the fleet already it WILL make the 787/350 'battle' more two-sided...

Very interesting all, but first lets see if it will happen. Though in general I tend to like Boeing A/C better, I think is this case it's a good thing... LY needs to get rid of those poor worn out 767 with shabby interiors ASAP to keep their product competitive and consistent. Right now the difference between a 777/744 operated flight and one with the 762 is just WAY to big.

IM


User currently offlineAmirs From Israel, joined Dec 2003, 1333 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 16449 times:

Quoting Amirs (Thread starter):
I guess they really need the new planes, and they couldn't wait til 2010 to get 787's.
Maybe they will be able to close a deal with Boeing to buy back the A330 and replace tem with 787 in 2010.

I hope no ones thinks i think A330 are bad a/c, I actaully love them BUT
It was an unofficial known fact that LY will order 787's to be delivered in 2009/2010 and I really wanted to see new modern 787's in LY fleet.


User currently offlineAirxLiban From Lebanon, joined Oct 2003, 4518 posts, RR: 53
Reply 9, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 16330 times:

Is this a temporary measure or a long term decision? If it is the latter case then I don't think I am out of line by saying that I can't understand how El Al has the cheek to go to Airbus when you consider the US foreign aid going to Israel which has cost US taxpayers, well, $X million where X>>0.

I realise that El Al is a private company (or at least partially) but as I recall the government still has a 30% stake in the airline so I hope they've got special voting rights or that the 330s are a temporary measure because otherwise I question the logic when you consider the big picture.



PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
User currently offlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 5052 posts, RR: 44
Reply 10, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 16229 times:

Even now, I'm still inclined to take this with a pinch of salt. With El Al, as long as the definitive contract isn't signed, it doesn't mean a thing. Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE for them to get the A330, but let's not forget they've been at this stage not once, but twice before: once with also the A330-200, and a few years before that with the A319. In those cases they went as far as signing MoUs (not 100% sure about an MoU for the A330s, though they did officially announce their intention to buy it, but sure about the A319s, MoU for five of which was signed) only to see the deals blocked for political reasons. Even with the new ownership, I still expect to see politics involved...

User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 16106 times:

Eight A330s including spares for $500M ($62.5M per aircraft) is a very sweet deal indeed. IIRC, some folks in this forum were incredulous when NW allegedly got its A330s for $80M a copy? Perhaps LY has retained Mr. O'Leary of FR (the notorious OEM rapist) as its purchasing agent.  Smile

User currently offlineRJpieces From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 15910 times:

I really can't see LY getting 330s except as a temporary measure. It simply doesn't make sense to buy a 330 when its competitor will be out in the near future and kill it in economics.

User currently offlineKaran69 From India, joined Oct 2004, 2893 posts, RR: 18
Reply 13, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 15848 times:

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 11):
Eight A330s including spares for $500M ($62.5M per aircraft) is a very sweet deal indeed. IIRC, some folks in this forum were incredulous when NW allegedly got its A330s for $80M a copy

That is indeed a very sweet deal, i bet thats a major reason for LY to choose it.

Lets face it,

Its not the worst aircraft flying around

Its better than the 767

I dont think Boeing will give them 8 787s for that price for obvious reasons.

OT, how much would factory fresh 767-400/300 ERs from Boeing cost LY to buy at the moment???----what is their List Price


User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 15785 times:

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 12):
I really can't see LY getting 330s except as a temporary measure. It simply doesn't make sense to buy a 330 when its competitor will be out in the near future and kill it in economics.

Still, at $62.5M a copy it's pretty hard to go wrong. Perhaps another A330 customer has decided to trim its unfilled order, explaining why Airbus may be willing to offer LY A330s at such reasonble prices?


User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 15758 times:

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 13):
OT, how much would factory fresh 767-400/300 ERs from Boeing cost LY to buy at the moment???----what is their List Price

763ER: $128-141.5M
764ER: $139.5-153.5M

Whereas, IIRC, the list prices of A330s are in the mid-$130Ms range?

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/prices/

[Edited 2006-04-16 16:15:19]

User currently offlineKaran69 From India, joined Oct 2004, 2893 posts, RR: 18
Reply 16, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 15758 times:

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 14):
Perhaps another A330 customer has decided to trim its unfilled order, explaining why Airbus may be willing to offer LY A330s at such reasonble prices?

Good point that got me wondering,
could it be the EK 346 slots as they do share the same production lines with the 330, as deposits are paid and the the EK aircrafts were due for delivery somewhere this year so Airbus can provide LY with atleast 2 330s within a year

But whatever i am quite happy that the A330 has got another order. altough a cheap one [price wise]


User currently offlineAvi From Israel, joined Sep 2001, 943 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 15620 times:

Airbus wants, desperately, to break into the Israeli market in general and El-Al in particular. This is why their offers are relative low (and why Boeing also had to give a relative low offers in the past).
Once this barrier removes, the future offers won't be that "cheap".

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 10):
...but let's not forget they've been at this stage not once, but twice before: once with also the A330-200, and a few years before that with the A319. In those cases they went as far as signing MoUs (...) only to see the deals blocked for political reasons.

When the Israeli government's Financial Minister signed the checks, this is how things worked. Today the government can't do much (and neither Washington).
On the other hand I do agree with you, it aint over till it over.



Long live the B747
User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24964 posts, RR: 56
Reply 18, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 15443 times:

A big surprise, but if true, then well done to Airbus.


When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4917 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 15443 times:

The 330 is a beautiful bird and looks good in almost any colours, I'm sure LY colours, bland though they are, will looks great on thes birds.

YOWza



12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineHS748 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 15372 times:

Quoting RedChili (Reply 4):
"El Al and Airbus? No way!"
"I'll believe this when I see it signed."
" If ElAl orders from Airbus I'll run naked down the local high street!"
"El Al getting Airbus aircraft is as probable as Embraer producing widebodies."
"El-Al needs an offer from A to show it to the B-folks, only to get the price at B right."
"Airbus and LY, thanks for the laugh."
"They are doing this to negotiate with Boeing. It will never happen."

A few quotes from a previous thread about the same question.

Well I'm preparing to run naked down the local high street as we speak, though unlike you I'll wait until there actually is an order before doing so!


User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9229 posts, RR: 76
Reply 21, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 15219 times:

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 15):
763ER: $128-141.5M
764ER: $139.5-153.5M

Whereas, IIRC, the list prices of A330s are in the mid-$130Ms range?

USA experience, cost of operating a 330 is much better than a 767

763 $4,901/hr, 1,568 Gal/hr, 216 seats source
333 $4,891/hr, 1,871 Gal/hr, 271 seats source

330 kills the 767



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineTifoso From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 440 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 15202 times:

Quoting HS748 (Reply 20):
Well I'm preparing to run naked down the local high street as we speak, though unlike you I'll wait until there actually is an order before doing so!

You should try and raise some money for charity as well like the Irish reporter did when he ran naked around Silverstone  Wink

$500 million for 8 widebodies + spares seems like a fantastic deal to me!

Congrats to Airbus and El Al.


User currently offlineLeelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 15202 times:

Quoting Zeke (Reply 21):
USA experience, cost of operating a 330 is much better than a 767

763 $4,901/hr, 1,568 Gal/hr, 216 seats source
333 $4,891/hr, 1,871 Gal/hr, 271 seats source

330 kills the 767

Isn't the A332 a better benchmark for comparison?


User currently offlineCXA330300 From South Africa, joined May 2004, 1569 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (8 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 15186 times:

Well good for LY. The 332 will help a good deal. We'll definitely see them to LHR and JNB.


The sky is the limit as long as you can stay there
25 PlaneHunter : True, EL AL's options with the B762s are quite limited - the A332 would offer more capacity, range and payload, simply more flexibility. I'd agree it
26 Amirs : You will see them everywhere the 767 usually fly today - LHR, JNB, BOM, YYZ, LAX, BKK, CDG, ROM, MXP, AMS, MIA Maybe even - HKG, ORD (nonstop) Can th
27 AirxLiban : 230 tonne version has a maximum range of 6400 nm. LAX-TLV is 6581nm according to the great circle mapper.
28 Post contains images Astuteman : It would appear you didn't even need to wait for the deal to be concluded
29 ZRH : Why do everybody think it is a surprise? The A 332 is at moment the best long-haul aircraft in its size (the 777 is bigger and the 787 and 350 will on
30 Leelaw : One which has at least 8 unfilled orders outstanding, merely a thought Udo. Then again, perhaps Airbus is anxious to sell a modest number of A330s at
31 PlaneHunter : Could also be an attempt to finally break into the Israeli market by any means, also hoping to be in a better position to place other types in the fu
32 CRGsFuture : Wow, the aviation world is being turned on its head. Wonderful news for Airbus, and while I am kind of upset at Boeing for not producing a fast enough
33 Dutchjet : Lets wait and see if EL AL does actually place an order with Airbus. Its a hell of a good deal -almost as if Airbus is having a "Buy one, get one free
34 Leelaw : If that's what Airbus has got to do to crack a 35-40 plane market, I guess that's what they got to do. IMO, the margins on any subsequent sales would
35 Ultrapig : This is great news because it means that EAl beleives the demand for travel to Israel will continue to be strong. Tourists are great business-they com
36 Zeke : BEN GURION (LLBG) to LOS ANGELES INTL (KLAX) 6792 nm LLBG->DCT->SOLIN-UW13-VELOX-UR18-ALSUS-UB15-VESAR-UB545-MUT-UL619-LENOV-UN133-LDZ-UN983-REDFI-UL
37 Slz396 : It is not mentioned in the article, but I suppose LY intends to buy A330-200 only? If confirmed by Airbus and LY, I think both sides will have made a
38 PlaneHunter : Considering the current demand for the A330, chances are not bad other carriers would pay more per frame. But we still don't know whether the $500 mi
39 4xRuv : Well, I just read LY's internal Magazine, which said that the EAD has just had a C3 technical checks, which also included a complete internal renovati
40 Karan69 : Just a bit curious how much were they offfered per piece on their 777s. I remember reading on this forum only, that last year when LY purchased two a
41 Leelaw : IMO, if the article is correct, and LY is purchasing the aircraft (including engines and spares) for $62.5M per unit, it'll be hard to convince any s
42 Post contains links Khobar : I asked this before, but why do US 763's consume so much more fuel than the worldwide average (which would include US 763's)? According to source US
43 PlaneHunter : The question is - if the price is correct - whether Airbus or another party would officially confirm it. There has been lots of talk about the easyJe
44 Slz396 : Just wondering: Where does it say in the article the price of $62.5M per unit ($500M divided by 8) INCLUDES the engines? Judging from the fact the ar
45 AirxLiban : With the exception of Iraq being at war there is no reason why you can't do this now as long as you get your Israeli visa on a piece of paper or trav
46 Semsem : This is a stupid decision. Apart from being an uncomfortable plane with narrow hard seats in economy, the US will rightly be irritated. And if Europe
47 M27 : Why the hush hush?
48 ZRH : This is rather childish. The seat width and if it is hard or soft does not depend on the aircraft but only on the airline.
49 4xRuv : It's actualy not as difficult as it sounds....
50 Post contains images PlaneHunter : Airbus does not produce seats. That will work as long as Israir's tiny fleet takes you where you need to go... PH
51 Zeke : PK US$140.803 mil (772ER), CX lower without engines/apu (773ER). I suspect the figure mentioned will be % of the package to be raised for the lease c
52 Leelaw : You're free to make that assumption, as in fact, the article doesn't report whether or not the engines are included in the quoted price. However, if
53 3201 : Hamas, Palmyra, and Tehran all agree with you, but not the way you probably had in mind. Obligatory on-topic content: is it possible that Borovich-Mo
54 Zeke : Yes in such cases, the airline comes up with 15% of the value, the lease company with the rest. If power by the hour, seperate agreement would exist,
55 CV990 : Hi! Well, it looks that Airbus got another "fluff" order from a "fluff" airline called EL AL...well donne Airbus and has a personal note I would like
56 CXA330300 : From what I hear, A LOT of Israeli left-wingers-especially those wanting a pull back to the '67 borders-are opposed to many US policies towards Israe
57 Leelaw : It's not clear to me what kind of financing arrangements you're contemplating?
58 Post contains links Khobar : Sorry about that - the info is from 2000, but I find it hard to believe that Airbus fuel consumption remains exactly as it was but Boeing fuel consum
59 PM : This could be fascinating. El Al have been a steady PW customer (on 767s and 747s) but preferred RR on their 757s and 777s where there were certainly
60 YULWinterSkies : Soooo, 332 or 333X ? And which engines ? Oh wait, LY was until now a never-never-ever, which had just proved wrong. I don't see why AA will "never-aga
61 RJpieces : You might say that Israeli left-wingers feel the same way as American left-wingers...
62 4xRuv : It's now operated with the 762/3, but with a stop in YYZ. I remember that in the past they used to have a direct flight TLV-LAX, but it was with the
63 YULWinterSkies : Thanks 4xRuv, indeed all is in the "officially". The 772ER "officially flies 14200 km or more, but the longest route is EWR-HKG, on which CO has high
64 Post contains images Zeke : Just the 85% EXIM Bank of USA et al normally provide, this is going off topic, maybe its worth makig a new topic on aircraft financing ?
65 Semsem : Airbus does not produce seats but the narrowness of the tiny seats is because the Airbus 330 is "too narrow."
66 4xRuv : Yeah, I am aware that there's a difference between the official and the feasible, but leave it to LY to stretch the limits.... They somehow love to d
67 Post contains links PlaneHunter : Before posting more comments like that, better check this link: http://www.seatguru.com/ PH
68 Dutchjet : If all of this is true, look for nonstop flights from TLV to MIA and ORD to start......each operating a few days per week. As I mentioned above, EL A
69 FlyBaby : ELAL had a huge nasty fight recently with the Israeli govt' over the opening of the extremely lucrative TLV-NYC scheduled service route to another Isr
70 FlyBaby : Already started (well, resumed after a few years of stops @EWR).
71 Khobar : From the paperwork you posted, it looks like PIA got $350M to lease 3 777-200ER's for 12 years? Ta.
72 Post contains links Zeke : Bit more complex, have a look at http://www.satribune.com/archives/apr25_may1_04/P1_pia.htm
73 Khobar : " target=_blank>http://www.satribune.com/archives/ap...a.htm Hmm, I wonder if this is along the same lines as selling a house for $20 in the US.
74 CV990 : Hi! Great answer Boomboom, great answer!!!! It's good to see EL AL close to TAP with the A330-200!!!! Specially when we look to both countrys and they
75 Amirs : Yeah, thay are only replacing their older fleet. They didnt even add on to it. From next month they will be operating 8 767 (6 - 762 ans 2 763) I wou
76 TodaReisinger : First of all, I am astonished that we know nothing (or hear nothing) about Boeing counter offers...? Was there any kind of challenge between A and B,
77 Mptpa : At $62.5 Million a piece incl spares is a great deal. Even if it burns double that of B787, the economics cannot be beat when you factor in acquisitio
78 Post contains images Johnny : As much as i would like to see that order, i still doubt it. I will not run naked on the main road of my hometown if it happens, but i think the order
79 Khobar : " target=_blank>http://www.satribune.com/archives/ap...a.htm Arg, I tried to edit my previous reply and failed...oh well. Since the title to the plane
80 ZRH : I think you have no knowledge at all about aviation. Of course an 330 is narrower than a 777 but in a 330 you only have 8 abreast, in a 777 usually 9
81 Zeke : This is getting off topic .... from the link previously provided.. One could infer that the US goverment through the Ex-Im bank, and Boeing have basi
82 Behramjee : It shall be refereshing to see a LY A 332 in YYZ and LAX...but can a fully loaded A 332 fly TLV-YYZ nonstop without suffering any pax + cargo payload
83 FlyBaby : I don't see why not. TLV-YYZ is about 9300km and a typically loaded A332 can go 12,500km.
84 Aviationwiz : Hasn't that happened to the IAF in the past with parts for Mirage fighters from France?
85 Dallasnewark : Is this a publicity stunt? I'll believe it when I see the agreement signed, otherwise, there are too many political factors working against Airbus the
86 Post contains links Manni : Yes indeed. I guess the writer of the article screwed up here. In comparison to the previous A330 'deal', 500 million would be half of what LY was of
87 Post contains links and images Amirs : The weird thing is that no other news agency is confirming or reporting the story. I would have expected some other news agency (bloomberg, yahoo, yed
88 Post contains images Windshear : Lol it looks... Em... fine Well I understand some of you who are surprised, but ELY is an independant company and they have spoken out on this subjec
89 FlySSC : TLV-YYZ is 9316km/5789mi. AF is using an A332 for one of its 3 Daily flight CDG-NRT, CDG-NRT is 9734km/6048mi (this is the longest regulat commercial
90 MAH4546 : MIA-TLV is non-stop, 2x a week.
91 FCKC : The order will be finalised after the "fetes of Pessah". Can Israelis tell us something about "Pessah".Is it Easter ? I must point out that this order
92 Amirs : This jornalist is well known for reporting on aviation in "The Marker" which is the business section of Ha'aretz newspaper. Ha'aretz is one of the mo
93 RedChili : Well, all US civilian aid to Israel has been eliminated. On top of that, IIRC, the trade balance between Israel and Europe is negative for Europe, wh
94 TodaReisinger : Pessah is commemorating the Exodus from Egypt, where the people of Israel had become slaves of Pharao. It is the feast of liberty, chanting the end of
95 FlyingDove : Plus at least one 742 pax and five 744 pax as well.
96 Post contains images TodaReisinger : I don't know how the 744s disapeared from my list... To my knowledge, there aren't 742 pax services with ly anymore...4X-AXQ has ended its career, an
97 PM : Just why is it "nonsense"? El Al need a plane with a capacity greater than the 737 but smaller than the 777-200ER. The 767s are old and need to be re
98 TodaReisinger : You speak of "rationalising the fleet"....well, that's exactly the problem here: for a small fleet I see no rational justification to have planes from
99 Slz396 : As far as I understand it, the success of the 787 is based on it being significantly different from any other plane currently in use, including the r
100 PM : I'm not altogether clear how much "commonality" there is between a 737 and 777 but commonality (real or imaginary) is only one factor when an airline
101 NorCal : Probably cockpit commonality and stuff like cabin systems. Aircraft related systems (I am thinking generators, pressurization systems etc.) won't hav
102 Khobar : What exactly is the issue with this deal? It seems PIA purchased the aircraft for about $404M which is roughly what the El Al 777 purchase was valued
103 Amirs : No 742 pax, but one 743 (ex-corsair) to join the fleet soon. They are still holding the 757 in the fleet. I wonder for how much longer and what a/c w
104 PM : Am I not right in saying that the active El Al 757 fleet is slowly decreasing? They were using 9 in the late '90s but it's rather fewer these days. C
105 Post contains links and images EL-AL : Well, I do not like this. First of all, I can't believe this till i see some Airbus in LY's colors landing in TLV. I think the Israeli new government
106 Zeke : Incorrect, from the article "Pakistan has actually paid US$ 150 million as 15 per cent of the down payment so that a One-Dollar company in Cayman Isl
107 Post contains links Khobar : $150M as a downpayment is 15% of $1B - for 3 777-200ER's. Seems kinda high. In any case, the deal is a lease/purchase with $150M down plus lease paym
108 FCKC : Many thanks Amirs for the explanations you gave about Z Blumenkrantz. You are right , the informations he gave have been written in "The Markers" , an
109 Ken777 : I wouldn't be surprised (or upset) to see El Al go with the 330s. They know that the US can't put that much pressure on the deal as old George's popul
110 Amirs : I also know that he sometimes writes what he is fed from the airlines, so even though his sources are reputable - they might be doing it as a publici
111 Post contains images Amirs : In Israel the holiday ends on Thursday, but in the rest of the world it ends on Friday. Anyway, we might not hear anything until beginning of next we
112 Post contains links Khobar : Apologies if it seemed so - Zeke suggested that our discussion was going off-topic, but I didn't agree since once again the purchase decisions of an
113 Leskova : The day that an A330-200 doesn't manage TLV-BKK is the day that Airbus should stop making planes. Seriously... a plane that can fly CDG-NRT or CDG-GR
114 TodaReisinger : I don't even think that the actual needs were thouroughly studied...Were there detailed analyses comparing the A330 vs 787? Why was the decision taken
115 RedChili : The "reference to politics" was when Airbus ordered the A332 for operational reasons back in 1999, but was forced by the US to cancel it for politica
116 Post contains links RedChili : I just noticed now on LY's web site, they claim the following range numbers: 73G/738: 4,870 miles 742: 10,000 miles 772: 12,670 miles 744: 11,860 mil
117 PM : But how do you know that it has been taken (IF it has) "fast" or "abruptly"? Do you know for how long Airbus and El Al have been talking? If not, the
118 FlySSC : 100% agree... Unless this is the first step for a complete reorganization of the fleet, with a mix of B & A : A combination of A20's family (A319/A32
119 Post contains links Amirs : They have been officially talking since the end of feb/beginning of march. I posted here at the end of march about their second meeting. Little did I
120 Post contains images Scbriml : You would know this how? I don't think LY is in the habit of thinking about spending 100s of millions of $s on new planes without having done a thoro
121 Shlomoz : It seems the moron who translated the site from Hebrew assumed that the translation of kilometers is simply "miles" with no accompanying calculation.
122 TodaReisinger : You are right, I don't know if the decision has already been taken or not. But if it has been taken, as it is considered to be "almost official", I m
123 RedChili : When all that was going on, my personal impression was that LY wanted to buy Airbus, but the government and US authorities were pressuring them to bu
124 Post contains links Amirs : You guys need to differeniate between what happened in 1997, what happened in 1999and what is hapeing now. In 1997, LY was favoring an airbus order w
125 RedChili : I realize that the situation is quite different today. And in one way, LY should be happy that they never got the A332s back in 1999 because they wou
126 Thorben : These are obviously the km figures. Even funnier when you look at the speeds. ----- Anyway, it would really be great to see some A330s in LY colours.
127 Elal106 : ELAL is not going to buy airbus anytime soon. Possibly for a seasonal lease, but never going to buy.
128 Post contains images PM : "Never" is a word that has a habit of making fools of those who use it. I look forward to your post once the ink is dry and the first plane is delive
129 Post contains images Lehpron : Do they need the plane, how do you know or not. From my perspective, this seems the case for many members -- not that any airline needs a particular
130 TodaReisinger : And here again...why was LY so strongly favoring the A320 over the NG737? These airplane families are widely seen as equivalent competitors, so why t
131 PM : You've made this point before. But your argument suggests that once an airline has locked itself into one airframe supplier it can never, ever, for a
132 Slz396 : May I ask you just what it is you have against Airbus planes in the LY fleet? Because from almost every post you make it sound as if one must be almo
133 Thorben : The mistake was not to "abandon" MDD, because they simply didn't offer anything. The mistake was not to buy A320s and A340s. They would be better of
134 PlaneHunter : What's wrong with KL's B737NGs and B777s? Please elaborate... With B777s in the fleet, ordering other B777 variants would be a more logic choice. And
135 RedChili : This is wild speculation on my part: LY operated the 732 back in the 1980s, but I believe that they stopped operating them (they either leased them o
136 Post contains links PanAm_DC10 : The following from the report which instigated this thread; By Gwen Ackerman April 16 (Bloomberg) -- El Al Israel Airlines Ltd. is close to signing a
137 RedChili : Obviously, Thorben should answer this question. But the way that I understand his statement, is that he's talking about the decision to replace the D
138 Post contains links and images Thorben : I knew it. I make one pro-Airbus statement and my favorite Boeing lover turns up. Nothing, they are nice planes. See here, my interpretation of the 73
139 Post contains images PlaneHunter : When KL ordered its first B737s, there was no A320 available. And adding B737NGs later to an existing fleet of B737 classics made a lot of sense. The
140 PM : Uh? Surely that's not what you meant to write? I believe they ordered both A330s and 777s in 2002 within a few months of each other.
141 PlaneHunter : You're right, the B777s were ordered in March 2002, the A330s in July (negotiations already being reported in March). Which proves even more that com
142 RedChili : The A320 was available around the same time as KL got its first 737s. The A319 was not available until several years later. When they already had 733
143 PlaneHunter : KL took delivery of B737-306 PH-BDA in September 1986. At that time no A320 was available yet. The B733 and B734 are still very economical aircraft,
144 Thorben : They got their first 734s in 1989, at a time when the A320 was already there. Last year it was 9:5 IIRC, almost 2:1 for the A32X. Besides, the recent
145 Kappel : I think we can go by the sales figures, in which the 772ER has soundly defeated the a343. And also recently the AC CEO stated that replacing the a343
146 Thorben : You'd have to include the A333 in there as well. Besides, sales figures don't tell the whole truth. Afaik they ordered -200LRs. With all that patienc
147 Post contains images PlaneHunter : And at a time when they already had 10 B733s in operation. You need to check total orders since the B737NG has been available. If the A340 (-200/300)
148 Kappel : No, the a333 does not compete with the 772ER, only the a343 does. The a333 has the 772A soundly defeated, that's true. OK, I'm not really sure, but I
149 PlaneHunter : And what's the "whole truth"? And B77Ws, a choice to replace existing A343s and A345s and a choice over possible A346s. KL's shorthaul fleet replacem
150 Post contains images Thorben : Oho, your first sensible argument. Actually, I believe the real number was 12. I'll do that when I have enough time to find out which A32X order was
151 Post contains images PlaneHunter : Actually, they already had 13 it seems. But the point is they already had started to introduce a new type. You don't need to know exact dates to real
152 Amirs : 1. There is one problem which I think holds LY back from ordering 77W - LY's 777's are powered by Trents, and as we all know 77W and 777LR are powere
153 Post contains images RedChili : True. I said "around the same time." Two years later, to be exact! I don't doubt that. Don't misunderstand me; I'm not saying that KL made a bad deci
154 Post contains images Kappel : True, that would have been my preference also. I'm not saying the decision making at KLM is perfect, far from it Acknowledged. My bad for contributin
155 Post contains images Thorben : And then? The same fruitless discussions over IM? When you make a recommendation like that, then name horse and rider. A340NG has Trents. But how imp
156 Post contains images TodaReisinger : LY did not stop using the 737. They had 2 in the fleet (4X-ABN and ABO) since 1983 and until the delivery of the first NG737s in 1999. During the 198
157 LY777 : I have just arrived from TLV with El Al (4hours delay!!!) and I talked with a F/A who told me that LY would only receive 2 777s next year and as for t
158 Amirs : How is that different from anything anyone has said here??? The 777 are coming before the summer season of 2007. Regarding the A330 - The official wo
159 AA1818 : All the hype about A330s then it all dies!!!! From what some on this forum said- it seemed as if it was days away??????? Let's hear a winner already!!
160 Post contains images Poitin : More likely talking and talking and talking with both manufacturers. So where's the deal already? We're getting tired and want to go to bed.
161 RedChili : Cool down. The article quoted by the thread starter specifically said Airbus financial experts would come to Israel after Passover to iron out the de
162 Poitin : But he said it was ALMOST Official. That doesn't sound like "almost" to me
163 AA1818 : ...especially since... After all this HooHaa about LY getting A330s, just for the sheer shock factor, I hope they go for more 777s and some 787s!!! I
164 Poitin : Understood -- get a good night's sleep as that is worth more than good luck on exams.
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