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What Are Part 141 And Part 61 Schools?  
User currently offlineAeroflot777 From Russia, joined Mar 2004, 3007 posts, RR: 27
Posted (8 years 5 months 4 days ago) and read 4094 times:

Looking at various threads about flight training, I couldn't help but notice constant talk about Part 141 and Part 61. Can someone please explain what those are.

Aeroflot777

13 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineHigney85 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 31 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days ago) and read 4087 times:

A part 141 school operates under FAR part 141. The main difference between 141 and 61 is that 141 is more structured. A 141 school uses an FAA approved Syllabus (many times a Jepp syllabus) and allows for a student to get the rating with less total hours. For example a commercial can be attained in 190 hours under part 141 compared to 250 hours under 61. 141 requires stage checks with other instructors and a "end of course" check by an authorized check, chief, or asst. chief instructor before the student can go to an FAA examiner. You will find that college universities and advanced pilot training programs typically are 141, whereas FBO's are mostly 61 programs with part time instructors. Hope this helps.

User currently offlineFlyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days ago) and read 4081 times:

Higney85 summed it up pretty well.

It may sound like Part 141 is a winner over Part 61, but I don't agree. They both have their advantages and disadvantages, don't make this a major decision criteria for choosing a flight school. Why do I say this?

- Hours required: While Part 141 requires less hours, it is rare for students to finish in the minimum for either. 141 requires 35 hours for a private, 61 requires 40 hours, but students in both programs usually need 50-60 hours anyways.

- Structure: Good and bad. Part 141 takes away freedom from the individual instructor to mold your training to you. A good Part 61 instructor will have that structure and record keeping anyways, but it will fit to you. He/she also has more freedom in selecting learning materials to suit you.

- Transferring: Say you have to transfer to a different school through your training (ie: you go off to college in another state), this is much easier to do in Part 61.



As you can probably tell, I favor Part 61. I'm a flight instructor who has taught under both 61 and 141. Both will get you done fine and both are successful every day across the country. Lots of schools try to use 141 as a selling point, but they're banking on the student not knowing what 141 really means, as it is really easy to make 141 sound like the "obvious" choice.

Find a good school (either 61 or 141) with good instructors that isn't too expensive and you'll be set.


User currently offlineBohlman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (8 years 5 months 4 days ago) and read 4069 times:

Quoting Higney85 (Reply 1):
For example a commercial can be attained in 190 hours under part 141 compared to 250 hours under 61.

Well, 50 of the 250 required under Part 61 can be conducted in a FTD, which brings the difference down a little.

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 2):
- Structure: Good and bad. Part 141 takes away freedom from the individual instructor to mold your training to you. A good Part 61 instructor will have that structure and record keeping anyways, but it will fit to you. He/she also has more freedom in selecting learning materials to suit you.

Not only that, but in a Part 141 school, they must retain a certain pass rate (usually around 80%) to keep their certification. The problem with this is that sometimes students who may not necessarily be preparers in certain areas will be passed by the DE when they really should have gotten a pink slip (and would have had they been Part 61). The implications of this are obvious.

I've also taught both, and prefer 61. The thing about part 61 is because the actual process is not regulated quite as strictly (mostly the end product), you get more freedom, and can choose whether or not to introduce the structure of 141, but if an anomaly occurs (preparing for something going wrong in aviation? Never!) like a student needs extra work with landings, or wants to spend more time at a towered airport, or needs to take some time off, etc etc etc, then there's simply more flexibility in a Part 61 school.


User currently offlineBravo45 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2165 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (8 years 5 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4047 times:

You guys have brought up some very interesting points I couldn't have thought of. I was in a part 61 for the PPL and soloed in just under 16 hours. After that flight, there was a year's break after which I joined a part 141 school on accelerated course. I got the PPL in a total of about 49 hours and that's after making sure we don't miss anything that I needed to work on. I had of course catching up to do and because of the weather that delayed my check ride by a week I had to fly solo for an hour to be in the rhythm again, further my examiner was an hour's flight from my home base so this figure includes all that.
Same thing for the IR, part 141 and on accelerated course, I completed it with a total of 92 hours. We actually completed all that we needed to do with a little more than 2 hours to spare, so we went up to fine tune things. But then my last stage check was on a very rough day, a day when I blew the 100 feet altitude mark more than once and had to break off an approach because we were picking up a lot of ice. Because of that I had to fly 1 additional hour to straighten things up, and made it through.
Now I have just started the CPL and again 141 and accelerated course. I have faith in the 141 especially if you choose accelerated course, it saves you a lot of time, for example we completed the first 3 flights of the Instrument course within one flight, it saved a lot of time, taxing, landing and taking off.
As mentioned above, by far more experienced people, both courses are successful. Either way when you complete your CPL you'd still be an amateur, I have finally been able to realize that. For me I feel 141 turned out to be a wise choice because I was flying all the time like crazy and no need to mention I loved it.
And BTW part 141 doesn't mean you "have to" complete the course in the minimums, so one can join a part 141 school and have the option of completing in less time IF one meets the standards. Nothing wrong in flying more, that's where the judgement of the instructors come in, a good instructor is just about the best thing you can want in a school.

Quoting Bohlman (Reply 3):
Bohlman



Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 2):
Flyf15

I'd be interested in your or any other instructor's comments of my views.

Anyway wish you all the best.
Best Regards,
Jawad Usman.


User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8265 posts, RR: 23
Reply 5, posted (8 years 5 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4024 times:

Simple. Part 141= Crap Part 61= Good.  silly 

Part 141 schools are always overpriced, usually have alot of politics and BS, and generally produce cocky and ill-trained pilots. Plus you are at the mercy of the system. By comparison, part 61 schools are cheaper, have better training and are easier on the pilot (or pilot-to-be.) Part 141 are college pilot factories while part 61 are privately owned and operated. The only real advantage to part 141 is the planes are brand new, but I also see that as a disadvantage. While talking to a part-141 student about flying approaches I mentioned working on NDB's, his response was "What is an NDB? We only use GPS."



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User currently offlineFlyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 5 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4023 times:

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 4):
I'd be interested in your or any other instructor's comments of my views.

You're accurate about the times, definitely. The problem with this is that 141 schools sell their shorter times... "Get done sooner!" "Less cost!", but its rarely the case. If you're a sharp student and you have a really good CFI, you can get done sooner, but that is by far not the norm.

A 61 instructor knows just as much as a 141 does, maybe more (there tend to be more 61 guys that have "been there and done that"), and has all the same educational materials available to him. When teaching 61, I used the Cessna Pilot Kit and Jeppesen textbooks - the same things 141 schools use. So, with the same student, same instructor, and same materials, you won't finish any faster with 141 than with 61.


I also think there is a lot more fun involved in 61. You spend more time out flying on your own...things such as the 50 hour XC requirement for instrument may seem daunting at first, but I had some of my best flights ever doing that - picking an airport in another state and flying out with a friend to get dinner or see the sights. Thats not an opportunity you have in 141. Sure you can do it but its not a requirement so it is much harder to justify doing when you look at the costs involved.


User currently offlineILCFII From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 39 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (8 years 5 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4016 times:

Yes, as a part 141 instructor we do follow a very specific training course outline. Contrary to some of the comments made above however, I do have freedom to tailor individual lessons to the students needs. Additionally, any good part 61 instructor should have a training course outline for each course they teach so in that respect the training is very similar.

Some of the advantages to a part 141 school is the acclerated program. Students go from 0 hrs to a private pilot is about 3 months. The politics/BS that were referred to above are more in place to enhance safety. Train at a school with 150 instructors and 100 airplanes and you would understand why part 141 schools have policies and procedures.

Just my  twocents 

ILCFII


User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8265 posts, RR: 23
Reply 8, posted (8 years 5 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4001 times:

Quoting ILCFII (Reply 7):
Students go from 0 hrs to a private pilot is about 3 months.

Nothing against you or your school, but I know a guy at a 141 school who has been working on his private for over a year. I also know a guy at a part 61 school who got his PPL in 8 days. It's all about the student and seldom about the type of school.

Another downside to some part 141 schools (I'm not sure if all are like this, but the one at the university by me is) is that you are only alotted so much time per week to fly. In this case it's 2 hours. If your instructor is late that eats into your time, if the plane needs fueled that eats into your time, if the weather is bad your time is gone for good. It sucks because you never get that time back. Granted, there are some good schools and good instructors and alot of people like part 141, but I just don't see a real advantage unless you just wanna blaze through your ratings and get it done ASAP which is, unfortunately, what alot of people do. And there are poorly run part 61 schools, too... and I can think of one in particular that I fly out of part-time that has alot of politics and BS and alot of talk behind your back type idiots who just want to look cool.

What it all comes down to is you. You can make a part 141 experience good and you can make a part 61 experience bad. Plus, it's whichever is easier for you.



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User currently offlineCaptainstorck From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 68 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 5 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3993 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 5):

My, aren't we opinionated.

I earned my private license under part 61, I am currently enrolled in a collegiate part 141 program in the pursuit of my insturment and commercial licenses, this summer I intend to recieve several ratings under part 61.

I greatly enjoyed flying under part 61, it was much more relaxed and the flying was more fun, however, part 141 has made me a much more thorough and safe pilot. The different parts suit different people better. Also, it depends on what you want to do with your ratings; if you intend to solely fly for personal pleasure or business, I would suggest part 61. Airlines on the other hand look favorably on Part 141 time and often 141 schools will be designed to functioned like an airline and this, though is often frustrating, can be a good learning experience and help you to prepare for the real thing.


User currently offlineILCFII From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 39 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (8 years 5 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3991 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 8):
What it all comes down to is you. You can make a part 141 experience good and you can make a part 61 experience bad. Plus, it's whichever is easier for you.

I agree. It comes down to the individual student and instructor in most cases.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 8):
Another downside to some part 141 schools (I'm not sure if all are like this, but the one at the university by me is) is that you are only alotted so much time per week to fly.

At our part 141 school, students are expected to fly/brief/sim 3 times per week at a minimum (that increases to 6 times/week during the accelerated summer courses!). Another issues is aircraft availability but I know that can me a issue at a part 61 program as well.

ILCFII


User currently offlineFlynavy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (8 years 5 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3932 times:

Of course, if you're a veteran of the U.S. armed forces, like I am, my G.I. Bill/VA benefits can only be used for training at Part 141 schools. So, my decision has already been made. VA benefits cover 60% of everything past PPL, up through ATP. That's quite a sum of cash.

Flying is a skill. It's up to me, and me alone, to get there faster. It isn't up to a school.


User currently offlineBravo45 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 2165 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (8 years 5 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3921 times:

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 6):
you can get done sooner, but that is by far not the norm.

Exactly my point, I am happy with part 141 because it worked out for me, it would have taken longer if I was not on accelerated course.
I have never heard of a maximum number of hours you can book an a/c for. Furthermore your time to be cut because of the weather sounds beyond crazy. That has to be an exception rather than the norm, not a good flight school. If they have too many students, they don't need me.
About the politics and other B/S, it is absolutely sad but again which type of college does it not happen in, there are crazy people pretty evenly divided everywhere. I have been to 2 FBO's never had the slightest hint of a problem.


Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 6):
I also think there is a lot more fun involved in 61. You spend more time out flying on your own...things such as the 50 hour XC requirement for instrument may seem daunting at first, but I had some of my best flights ever doing that - picking an airport in another state and flying out with a friend to get dinner or see the sights. Thats not an opportunity you have in 141.

I can't spreak for the the part 61 coz I haven't been through it, but I think its comes down to how often do you fly. I was flying sometimes twice a day finishing more than one lesson per flight. I had hours to spare following the 141, my instructors were creative and efficient. I had a number of same kind of flights that you are reffering to. I too enjoyed a lot as we used to select a certain airport as it was close to the shore, nice scenery etc. The course says: an airport at least 100 miles away (for example), part 61 has probably more room of possibility but I have nothing againt these restriction, they didn't take any of the fun part away from me.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 8):
Nothing against you or your school, but I know a guy at a 141 school who has been working on his private for over a year. I also know a guy at a part 61 school who got his PPL in 8 days. It's all about the student and seldom about the type of school.

You nail the point here, part 141 gives you a possibility part 61 doesn't, you have to make it work for it to be worth it.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 8):
and I can think of one in particular that I fly out of part-time that has alot of politics and BS and alot of talk behind your back type idiots who just want to look cool.

As I said, its sad there are this kind of people and institutions out there, for my part I would never have anything to do with them (I hope nobody be forced into them for any reason).

Quoting N766UA (Reply 8):
What it all comes down to is you. You can make a part 141 experience good and you can make a part 61 experience bad. Plus, it's whichever is easier for you.

Ditto!!!

After reading all this, I am convinced if I was to do it again, I would choose part 141 IF I can afford the accelerated course in a school (like mine) where you can fly as much as you want without having any trouble to reserve aircrafts and instructors.


User currently offlineAeroflot777 From Russia, joined Mar 2004, 3007 posts, RR: 27
Reply 13, posted (8 years 5 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3893 times:

Thanks everyone! Great responses, and now in the future I'll know what you're talking about!  Smile

But:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 8):
I also know a guy at a part 61 school who got his PPL in 8 days.

PPL in 8 days? Jeez how much did he fly a day? That's amazing!

Aeroflot777


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