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Longterm Carparks Near Airports - Bad Idea?  
User currently offlineDIJKKIJK From France, joined Jul 2003, 1783 posts, RR: 4
Posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2001 times:

So you have a few hundred cars, all with fuel, standing close to the operational runways. All it takes is one little loss of control even by a small aircraft and.....you get the picture.

So should long term open carparks be allowed near airports? Bad idea, I think!


Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26357 posts, RR: 76
Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 2001 times:

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Thread starter):
So you have a few hundred cars, all with fuel, standing close to the operational runways. All it takes is one little loss of control even by a small aircraft and.....you get the picture.

So should long term open carparks be allowed near airports? Bad idea, I think!

And just where are you planning on putting those cars? There are also lots of gas stations around airports which could go boom a magnitude more than a lot with cars if hit by an airplane (one almost was when WN went off at BUR). Oh and how about the rental cars and their lots.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineHS748 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1985 times:

Well if they're all in a car park there's going to be nobody in them, so whilst there might be a lot of damaged property there probably wouldn't be a great loss of life. Now using your logic you could argue that passenger terminals shouldn't be near airports for the very same reason!

User currently offlineDIJKKIJK From France, joined Jul 2003, 1783 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1985 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 1):
And just where are you planning on putting those cars?

Underground carparks, with reinforced roofs maybe?



Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1965 times:

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Reply 3):
Underground carparks, with reinforced roofs maybe?

Which would lead to the question:
How to pay for such an expensive structure? Surely not through parking fees, as such a costly structure would require high parking fees, which would be sure to scare off potential customers.
And going by the way of thinking here in general, with that logic, all airports should be at least 10 miles away from any larger collection of cars, read: city. Not to mention that in short-term parking there are probably even more cars than in long-term parking, and let's not forget all the fueled-up rental cars. You can't put all those parking spaces underground, seriously.


User currently offlineRichardPrice From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1965 times:

Arent there huge fuel depots on airport grounds anyway, probably vastly outweighing the amount of fuel that would be in any carpark?

User currently offlineHS748 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1953 times:

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 5):
Arent there huge fuel depots on airport grounds anyway, probably vastly outweighing the amount of fuel that would be in any carpark?

Good point!


User currently offlineSJCRRPAX From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1953 times:

I think Southwest ran into a car and it didn't explode. Actually, I never heard of a car explode when getting hit by an airplane, so why spend money trying to protect against something that there is only a remote possiblitiy of occurance. The money would be better spent extending runways and installing restraining devices to prevent runway overshoot.

User currently offlineCRGsFuture From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 536 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1947 times:

Well if people are that worried why not encourage mass transportation via electric railways like Europe's rail to air idea.


Flying you to your destination; your girlfriend to her dreams.
User currently offlineBDL2DCA From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1934 times:

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 7):
Actually, I never heard of a car explode when getting hit by an airplane

Cars don't actually often explode. They tend to burn. Someone has been watching too many Hollywood films.

You really only get an explosion when you get combustion under pressure. Gas sitting in a gas tank is not under pressure.



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User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5397 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1915 times:

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Thread starter):
So you have a few hundred cars, all with fuel

Any idea how many gallons of fuel are in a fully loaded airliner??

One airliner has around 4 or 5 times the total amount of gas in ALL of those cars combined.


Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26357 posts, RR: 76
Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1910 times:

Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 8):
Well if people are that worried why not encourage mass transportation via electric railways like Europe's rail to air idea.

Oh, that would be great, but it is not just the US that does it. Europe too has long term and short term lots. The OP just didn't seem to look at the logistics of all this.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineCRGsFuture From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 536 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1895 times:

Quoting N1120A:
Oh, that would be great, but it is not just the US that does it. Europe too has long term and short term lots. The OP just didn't seem to look at the logistics of all this.

I think you missed my point. I understand that Europe has that as well but in America we encourage people to drive to the airport, at places like CDG and FRA you have the option of driving or taking the railroad. (Wished LIS had this but their Metro continues to expand) To me this idea needs to be implemented more, give people the alternatives.



Flying you to your destination; your girlfriend to her dreams.
User currently offlineWillieP From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 65 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1882 times:

sorry is it me but i really do not understand the reason for this thread!  boggled 

User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4645 posts, RR: 11
Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1858 times:

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Thread starter):
So you have a few hundred cars, all with fuel, standing close to the operational runways. All it takes is one little loss of control even by a small aircraft and.....you get the picture.

So should long term open carparks be allowed near airports? Bad idea, I think

It makes for good compatable land use, afterall what would you rather have there? The areas off of runways area called Runway Protection Zones (RPZs) and can extend from 1,000 to 2,500 ft beyond the runway end. In these areas it is reccomended that there be no areas where people congregate such as shopping malls or churches etc...

Outisde of having absolutely nothing at all, a car parking lot is the next best thing.



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineJoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3161 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1858 times:

I agree that the risk of the fuel depots on the airports is larger.

However, are there airports where car parking is forbidden for LPG-powered cars? In France and Switzerland, in parking garages, I often saw signs "no access for LPG cars" (they do have a risk of explosion, other than normal gas or diesel cars). Has anyone seen this? And how much is LPG used in other countries? (In the Netherlands, I guess it's around 15-20% of all cars).


User currently offlineCarduelis From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2001, 1585 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1768 times:

Perhaps a more serious situation was around 1993 when a small truck with a makeshift rocket launcher was left at a hotel car park at LHR. This together with some 'missiles' (rockets) from the then 'uninhabited' SW of LHR actually made some 'hits' on T4.

I was there at the time meeting a friend from New York. T4 was evacuated - not by us going outside, but by taking the Underground to either the Central Area, or, as a number of other people and I did, we carried on, straight into the centre of London.

I returned late that evening to retrieve my car from the T4 car park, and had rather a hassle with the attendant for the 'amount due' After negotiation he eventually agreed to charge me only for the time I arrived to the actual evacuation alarm!

A lot of cameras appeared in and around the car parks soon after!



Per Ardua ad Astra! ........ Honi Soit Qui Mal y Pense!
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 1745 times:

They are not a problem.

Plane crashes can happen anywhere. No place is technically "safe" from an accident.

The only place I would object to (and yes, it happened), is building a parking structure at the end of the runway:


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Photo © Shaun Edelstein



Yes, somebody actually proposed a parking structure on the landing side of runway 27 at SAN. It was approved and built before anyone noticed it might interfere with landing operations.


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Photo © Craig Mills
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Photo © Kevin Trinkle - Cactus Wings




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User currently offlineBobster2 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 1702 times:

Here are some pictures showing what happens when a plane crashes in a parking lot (scroll down for pictures of the burning cars:

http://www.rocousa.com/GenericStuff/dc-8_jet_crashes.htm

Wikipedia says 26 cars were destroyed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine_Air


User currently offlineStealthZ From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5678 posts, RR: 45
Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 2 days ago) and read 1675 times:

Quoting Joost (Reply 15):
However, are there airports where car parking is forbidden for LPG-powered cars? In France and Switzerland, in parking garages, I often saw signs "no access for LPG cars" (they do have a risk of explosion, other than normal gas or diesel cars).

A couple of reasons for this. LP gas is stored under pressure so in the case of an accident a rupture may cause fuel to escape at great velocity and cause an explosive cloud. Conventional fuels are not and if tank ruptured the fuel will generally just run on the ground(if there is no heat source to ignite it)
This scenario is not generally a concern in parking garages as the speeds would be(should be) too low to rupture the tank. The main concern is a leaky tank or valve. LP gas is heavier than air and could pool into an ultimately explosive concentration in the lower parts of a building. Petrol, Diesel or Aviation fuel(they are almost the same) evaporates into a lighter than air state, rising and venting out of the building thus imposing a lower risk.



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