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Why Hasnt Boeing Been Able To Sell Any B777LR Yet?  
User currently offlineYdahman From Syria, joined Feb 2006, 39 posts, RR: 4
Posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 14706 times:

Why hasnt Boeing been able to sell any B777LR yet? How many of them is it expecting to sell within the next few years and what airlines are potential customers of this product?

Thanks

63 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineChrisA330 From Canada, joined Oct 1999, 636 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 14670 times:

Boeing has sold 35 to date (don't know where you got none)

Air Canada 12
Air India 8
Emirates 10
EVA Air 3
Pakistan Int'l Airlines 2
Total 35


User currently offlineHamlet69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2745 posts, RR: 58
Reply 2, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 14625 times:

Quoting Ydahman (Thread starter):
Why hasnt Boeing been able to sell any B777LR yet?

Huh? Please go here:

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/orders

And do a "Standard Report" for the 777 model. You will find 35 have been sold to date, all but 5 coming just last year.

Quoting Ydahman (Thread starter):
what airlines are potential customers of this product?

The most likely candidates to sign up next (in my personal opinion of liklihood):

Singapore Airlines
Qantas
Etihad Airways
Air China
China Southern
Jet Airways
Vietnam Airlines
Qatar Airways
British Airways

The top 5 could all happen this year.

Regards,

Hamlet69



Honor the warriors, not the war.
User currently offlineFlagshipAZ From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3419 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 14425 times:

Probably because of the engine choices...there isn't any. If you want a 772LR or a 773ER, you have to have the GE engine. That's fine if you're a pre-existing 777 customer already flying GEs on your airplanes such as Continental, but if you're a RR-powered 777 customer like American & Delta, you're kinda screwed. AA threw a temper tantrum over the GE exclusive deal with Boeing...AA wanted more than one engine choice for the aircraft, should they need the 772LR in the future. Regards.


"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9210 posts, RR: 76
Reply 4, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 14412 times:

Quoting ChrisA330 (Reply 1):
Boeing has sold 35 to date (don't know where you got none)

Air Canada 12
Air India 8
Emirates 10
EVA Air 3
Pakistan Int'l Airlines 2
Total 35

How many of those are 772F, not 772LR ?



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineSNATH From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3247 posts, RR: 22
Reply 5, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 14356 times:

Quoting Zeke (Reply 4):
How many of those are 772F, not 772LR ?

35 LRs and 23 LRFs (AC 2x, AF 5x, EK 8x, and Avion Group 2 orders of 4x) according to the Boeing WWW site.

Tony



Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21562 posts, RR: 59
Reply 6, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 14356 times:

Quoting Zeke (Reply 4):
How many of those are 772F, not 772LR ?

Come on, do your own research.  Wink

Those are all 772LR.

And "777LR" is actually the family of jets including the 772LR, 777F and 773ER. It is the "longer range" family.

Boeing has booked:

35 772LR
189 773ER
23 777F

One would assume that the family has already moved well past break-even, and each model will be past break-even relatively soon, though I honestly don't see a ton of 772LR sales beyond 2009 as the 789 will EIS in 2010. But 777F and 773ER sales should continue for a long while, at least until the 787-10 proves itself and airlines see whether it is more economical to fly it over the 773ER.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineZeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9210 posts, RR: 76
Reply 7, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 14329 times:

Quoting SNATH (Reply 5):
35 LRs and 23 LRFs (AC 2x, AF 5x, EK 8x, and Avion Group 2 orders of 4x) according to the Boeing WWW site.

Thanks Tony, I thought BR had ordered 772Fs, not 772LRs.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
But 777F and 773ER sales should continue for a long while, at least until the 787-10 proves itself and airlines see whether it is more economical to fly it over the 773ER.

Did you mean 787-10 replace 772ER, and 748i replace 773ER ?



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 8, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 14275 times:

Quoting Zeke (Reply 7):
Did you mean 787-10 replace 772ER, and 748i replace 773ER ?

I don't think he meant "replace" but rather choose rather than. Some airlines may choose the B787-10 rather than the B777-300ER.


User currently offlineBoeing767-300 From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 664 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 14236 times:

Quoting FlagshipAZ (Reply 3):
Probably because of the engine choices...there isn't any. If you want a 772LR or a 773ER, you have to have the GE engine. That's fine if you're a pre-existing 777 customer already flying GEs on your airplanes such as Continental, but if you're a RR-powered 777 customer like American & Delta, you're kinda screwed.

You could say the same about A345/6. Whilst its preferable that Airlines have a choice the reality is that the market was not there to develope more than 1 choice.

GE being the sole choice has not hurt sales as what was perceived. EK opted for huge numbers of 777X (Rolls Royce) namely 54 77W, 12 777LR and 8 77F and Singapore 19 77W (Rolls Royce) and Cathay Pacific 16 77W (also Rolls Royce)

Given the follow up orders from EK (several times) and likely follow up orders from SQ and CX I don't think they have a problem with the 'Big' GEs which at this stage have had an amazing trouble free introduction into service that given the new high thrust territory that the 115B has charted is nothing short of incredible. Both the GE90 and Trent 800 had a lot of teething troubles on earlier 777s but it seems GE is on top of it with the 115B.

Quoting FlagshipAZ (Reply 3):
AA threw a temper tantrum over the GE exclusive deal with Boeing...AA wanted more than one engine choice for the aircraft, should they need the 772LR in the future. Regards.

Given the fact that 154 777s were sold in 2005 compared to 15 A340 and all except 3 or 4 of those were sold with GE Engines I'm sure Boeing and GE are deeply regretting their exclusivity deal..... Yeah Right!!!!!


User currently offlineSNATH From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3247 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 14236 times:

Quoting Zeke (Reply 7):
Thanks Tony, I thought BR had ordered 772Fs, not 772LRs.

No problem (it's actually cool to find out these things anyway...). BR has indeed ordered 3 LRs. There were some rumors on a.net some time ago that they were having second thoughts and might change the order to another model (LRFs were mentioned). But I haven't heard anything about that since...

Tony



Nikon: we don't want more pixels, we want better pixels.
User currently offlineHamlet69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2745 posts, RR: 58
Reply 11, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 14089 times:

Quoting SNATH (Reply 10):
There were some rumors on a.net some time ago that they were having second thoughts and might change the order to another model (LRFs were mentioned).

There indeed has been a lot of uncertainty over the BR -200LR's, particularly when they delayed the delivery of these models over 18 months. However, recent rumors suggest that instead of taking -200F's instead, BR will actually order more -200LR's. . .

We'll see what happens,

Hamlet69



Honor the warriors, not the war.
User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21562 posts, RR: 59
Reply 12, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 13995 times:

Quoting Zeke (Reply 7):
Did you mean 787-10 replace 772ER, and 748i replace 773ER ?



Quoting Zvezda (Reply 8):
I don't think he meant "replace" but rather choose rather than. Some airlines may choose the B787-10 rather than the B777-300ER.

Yep. In 9Y configuration, the 787-10 should fly about 330 pax in 3 class about the same distance as the 773ER with the same cargo capacity (volume, maybe not weight). So, if it is far more economical, airlines may decide to forgo those "35" pax in favor of better economics.

Of course the real numbers are all lower, but if the 787-10 can carry a real 3 class load of 300 pax (9Y) vs. 330 for the 773ER, it just depends on what airlines want to do. It's really a wait and see game, and nobody is going to not buy 773ERs between now and then just in case.

The 787-10 is a 772 killer (and in 9Y, the 789 will help kill the 772 as well), and though it won't completely kill the 773ER, the 787-10 may put a big dent in the sales. We'll have to see what the final numbers are like. It's a long way off, so the 773ER will sell well for a while.

One can expect any future Y3 would notch in at 380 pax min if the 787-10 is offered at 330.

The 777F should sell well even if the 773ER starts waning, because there isn't another plane in the 777F class right now. The 330F will be a great plane, but it is a different class of freighter, as is the 748F and the A380F.



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2821 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 13749 times:

I think Ydahman was talking about why no aircraft from the 777LR program (772LR, 777F, 773ER) have been sold this year.

User currently offlineMonteycarlos From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2107 posts, RR: 28
Reply 14, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 13727 times:

Quoting Glom (Reply 13):
I think Ydahman was talking about why no aircraft from the 777LR program (772LR, 777F, 773ER) have been sold this year.

I guess the answer to that is 'slot scarcity'.



It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 15, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 13689 times:

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 14):

I guess the answer to that is 'slot scarcity'.

No, there are plenty of B777 slots for 2008 delivery and I believe still a few for late 2007 delivery. I think the answers are three:
a) a lot of the demand for B777s was satisfied by orders placed last year,
b) the B787, especially the B787-10, is a new alternative, and
c) three months is not a long enough time to draw much of a conclusion.

I can imagine a post like: Boeing didn't get any orders last week. Not for the new SuperJumbo, not for the B777, not for the B787 or B767, not even any for the B737! Oh My Dog!!! Can Boeing recover? Will Airbus be motivated to innovate once Boeing are out of business? Spotting will be so boring when all the aircraft flying are Airbii.

Give it more than just one quarter. If Boeing don't sell any B777s for a year, then you can start worrying about the program.


User currently offlineIkramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21562 posts, RR: 59
Reply 16, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 13614 times:

Quoting Glom (Reply 13):
I think Ydahman was talking about why no aircraft from the 777LR program (772LR, 777F, 773ER) have been sold this year.

Last year they sold 8, all follow on orders, by the end of Q1.

Things picked up a little after that...  Wink



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26714 posts, RR: 75
Reply 17, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 13564 times:

Quoting Zeke (Reply 7):
Thanks Tony, I thought BR had ordered 772Fs, not 772LRs.

They launched the 772LR along with PK, way before the 777F was launched. Initially, they thought they would need it for TPE-JFK, as the 77W hadn't had all of its range upgrades yet. Now, they know they can fully load a 77W and fly it reliably between the two cities. Still, given what has come out about the operating economics of the 772LR on trips longer than 5000 or so nautical miles, it isn't a surprise that they actually ordered more of the type.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 12):
Yep. In 9Y configuration, the 787-10 should fly about 330 pax in 3 class about the same distance as the 773ER with the same cargo capacity (volume, maybe not weight). So, if it is far more economical, airlines may decide to forgo those "35" pax in favor of better economics.

330 pax in 3 class? I don't think so. In their old, less up to date 3 class configuration with 10Y on the larger 772ER, EK carries 303. In the new configuration, they fly 283, also with 10Y but with fewer F and C seats because of the greater space they take up. In 9Y, the 787-10 will have a shot at 250-260 3-class. Also, other than Boeing's BS numbers (much like Airbus with their 380 seat 3-class A346), I don't know where you found 365 for a 3-class 773ER since Boeing doesn't market the 773ER as a 10Y aircraft. The best indicator of normal passenger density in a 3 class layout is AF, and they fly their 77Ws with 310 seats.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineMonteycarlos From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2107 posts, RR: 28
Reply 18, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 13228 times:

Zvezda, I'd like to say you have a point but really I think Boeing is hurting in the slots available for the B777. Remember firm orders aside, they have sold a heap of slots to carriers as options which are now unavailable to carriers wanting the aircraft.

I do agree on the issue of it being the first quarter, and I am by no means suggesting that anyone for one minute believes Boeing won't sell 777's this year. I think simply no carrier is ready to commit to buying new widebody jets in this financial year when most CAPEX budgets will be getting close to zero.

Mid-year is my bet for these orders, but I think we can expect announcements sooner.



It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4841 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 13092 times:

NZ has options for 772LR and has said that they are looking at them, if they do get them they will order at least 4.


56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlineIntothinair From Germany, joined Mar 2005, 392 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 12561 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 12):
Yep. In 9Y configuration, the 787-10 should fly about 330 pax in 3 class about the same distance as the 773ER with the same cargo capacity (volume, maybe not weight). So, if it is far more economical, airlines may decide to forgo those "35" pax in favor of better economics.

Of course the real numbers are all lower, but if the 787-10 can carry a real 3 class load of 300 pax (9Y) vs. 330 for the 773ER, it just depends on what airlines want to do. It's really a wait and see game, and nobody is going to not buy 773ERs between now and then just in case.

The 787-10 is a 772 killer (and in 9Y, the 789 will help kill the 772 as well), and though it won't completely kill the 773ER, the 787-10 may put a big dent in the sales. We'll have to see what the final numbers are like. It's a long way off, so the 773ER will sell well for a while.

One can expect any future Y3 would notch in at 380 pax min if the 787-10 is offered at 330.

The 777F should sell well even if the 773ER starts waning, because there isn't another plane in the 777F class right now. The 330F will be a great plane, but it is a different class of freighter, as is the 748F and the A380F.

Perfectaly summed up. With fuel prices at $70 per barrel, airlines want more efficient planes, and having a 787-10 with 35 seats less than the 773ER, most, if not almost all airlines would go for the 787-10. Thus
787-8= 767-300 killer
787-9=772A/ER/to a certain extent LR
787-10(If built)= 773ER killer/further 772ER/LR killer

If the 787-10 gets built, we can basically say, bye bye 777 sales! apart from a few follow on orders, and some 777F sales as this jet has no competitiors right now. If the 787-10 does not get built, i could see minimum another 200 773ER sales, and it wouldn't completely destroy 772LR sales either! I'd hate to see such a young plane as the 777 get destroyed by an even newer plane just (773ER/772LR) under 10 years after their first flights.

cheers, Konstantin G.


User currently offlineDeltaDC9 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 2844 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 11983 times:

Quoting Ydahman (Thread starter):
Why hasnt Boeing been able to sell any B777LR yet?

Not only have they sold plenty, one or two LR models are already in service.



Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
User currently offlineBoeing Nut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 11773 times:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
And "777LR" is actually the family of jets including the 772LR, 777F and 773ER. It is the "longer range" family.

Not quite correct. Initially, and I believe still the case, the 772LR &, 773ER, are catagorized as the 777 "C" market group. The 777F was added to the "C" group as this aircraft was a new development. The "B" market includes the 772ER and 773, and then the "A" market includes the standard 777-200. The 777LR is the designation for the 777-200LR.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26714 posts, RR: 75
Reply 23, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 11651 times:

Quoting Intothinair (Reply 20):
Perfectaly summed up. With fuel prices at $70 per barrel, airlines want more efficient planes, and having a 787-10 with 35 seats less than the 773ER, most, if not almost all airlines would go for the 787-10.

Again, there is no way that airplane will have only 35 fewer seats unless long haul premium class products take about 8 steps backward.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6491 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (8 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 11571 times:

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 22):
Not quite correct. Initially, and I believe still the case, the 772LR &, 773ER, are catagorized as the 777 "C" market group. The 777F was added to the "C" group as this aircraft was a new development. The "B" market includes the 772ER and 773, and then the "A" market includes the standard 777-200. The 777LR is the designation for the 777-200LR.

"A/B/C-market" is merely a range designation and nothing more.

A-market: 7,200-9,200km — 777-200, 777-300
B-market: 10,800-14,250km — 777-200ER, 777-300ER
C-market: 14,800km+ — 777-200LR

The 777 Freighter does not play into this, as freighters are not categorized in the same manner. If you did categorize it according to the above list, it would be A-market.

As to "777LR," Ikramerica is right and you are wrong:

Boeing Longer-Range 777s: Flying Farther and Increasing the Value of the 777 Family.

Additionally, the 777LR family was known as 777X for a time.

[Edited 2006-04-18 16:49:56]


When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
25 Post contains images Boeing nut : OK, I see my mistake now. That's actually the first time I've seen 777LR used to group the longer range 777 family of aircraft. I, like many others I'
26 1337Delta764 : Like the 767-400ER, the 777-200LR is a niche aircraft. It was made specifically for airlines that need such great range.
27 Ikramerica : Yes, it is sort of confusing, but I've seen boeing themselves call the three jets the 777LR, while the 777-200LR is called just that.
28 Texfly101 : I wouldn't worry about 777LR sales. I would consider the 777 family orders as indicative of the health of the 777 line. The big spurt of orders from n
29 BoeingFever777 : Why would VN need this a/c... Hell what they want to do fly SGN-JFK n/s?
30 N328KF : They're already buying the 787-8, and it isn't that far off of the -200LR range.
31 Post contains links Zvezda : See Reply #85 by Widebodyphotog here: 747-8 Model Turning Heads (by Jacobin777 Apr 14 2006 in Civil Aviation)
32 BoeingFever777 : What do you consider far off? 788=8,000-8,500NM 772=9,420NM
33 Saturn5 : That is simply impossible - in order to launch an aircraft derivative they must have at least a client or two lined up. Consider it a mathematical ce
34 Post contains links SNATH : Actually, the B772LR / B773ER were launched without launch customers, as you can read here in this press release: http://www.boeing.com/news/releases
35 Saturn5 : Sorry, but this press release says nothing about launch customers whether there were any or not. The fact that it is not mentioned does not mean that
36 N328KF : I would say that the common understanding was that Air France was the launch customer, but for political reasons (pressure to buy Airbus), AF let JL
37 SNATH : True but, typically, when a plane is launched the launch customers are also announced (remember the B787 launch?). I do stand by my claim: when the B
38 N1120A : As much as I respect WBP, he is wrong here.
39 Aerohottie : I would say that NZ would be well suited to use the 773ER (8 to 10) to replace the 744's, get 7772LR's (6ish) for new long markets such as AKL - NYC/
40 Zkpilot : Unless NZ wants to start up a 3rd daily LHR flight I think the 744's will be replaced by 748's. Still possible for NZ to have both 772LR and 773ER in
41 Zvezda : As much as I respect you, Widebodyphotog's analysis makes perfect sense to me. All I'm seeing from you on this one is hand waving. You need to make a
42 CRGsFuture : Doesn't PK already have 2 772LR's? -JD
43 Post contains images Intothinair : Could you please back up your statement with some information
44 Post contains images Hamlet69 : Wow, we've gotten a lot more comments on this thread than I expected. No, the 787-10 won't be nearly as large as the 777-300ER. Think of it as a strai
45 CRGsFuture : Hamlet did PK get their 772LR's yet or is the comming up shortly?
46 Post contains images SunriseValley : They are operating at about 80% load factor with the -400's; I can't believe they would reduce capacity. It's not as if they can increase their frequ
47 Post contains links Intothinair : Hamlet 69! What you are saying(As much as i'd want it to be true) is simply incorrect. Take a look at this... Assuming the B787-10 will be 20 feet lo
48 Aerohottie : What do you think the 773ER capacity would be for NZ, esp considering NZ managed to get 313 seats in the 772ER comfortably. perhaps the 773ER wouldnt
49 Post contains images Ikramerica : Actually it is slotted from below the 772 to between the 772 and 773, depending on wether you use comfy Y seats or 747 sized Y seats. We have the sam
50 Intothinair : Agreed, must admit though, before I heard some convincing information from Zvezda and you, I thought of it the same way as well, that the 787-10 will
51 Intothinair : When will be the first deliveries to airlines of the 787-10, 2012?
52 ZK-NBT : Probably around 330. Remember the 772ER has a much smaller premium cabin than the 744 just over half the size, because of the routes it is used on an
53 Zvezda : Y3 only makes sense if and when Boeing can produce a very large aircraft with significantly lower CASM and better payload/range performance than a B7
54 Zkpilot : As exciting as all this is, I do hope that NZ isn't over expanding too much too soon.... Has done that before, and with the way the airline industry
55 Hamlet69 : It's not a matter of looking at the math, it's a matter of looking at the market. Yes, the -10 will be slightly larger than current 772ER. No, it wil
56 Zvezda : Not disappeared, but drastically diminished.
57 Ikramerica : See Hamlet... Exactly. Once the 787-10 comes on board, the 777LR will be the "heavy lift" aircraft of choice. There is no doubt that the 773ER and 77
58 SunriseValley : Hamlet69 Can you provide the link for this, please. Thanks
59 Lehpron : Right now, I think it's a niche product, that not as many people as it can take want to fly that far circa pre-2010. I'm guessing a future partial de
60 Saturn5 : Listen Lephron. I don't understand your posts. One does not have to be Einstein to figure that Boeing's investment into 777 paid off long time ago. H
61 Post contains links Hamlet69 : Boeing was certainly reluctant to offer the -10, there's no doubt about that. But not for the reason your suggesting. Boeing didn't want to do the -1
62 Post contains images Lehpron : We are talking about the LR family derivatives of the 777 in this thread. It pays to read more carefully. Thank you for answering my question, let's
63 Zkpilot : thanks for the link..
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