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DC-10's To Hawaii  
User currently offlineAF 747 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 13 posts, RR: 0
Posted (14 years 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 1746 times:

I am just curious, but why do so many airlines, especially U.S. carries such as Continental, American, Northwest, United, and Hawaiin, fly almost exclusivly DC-10's to Hawaii. And some of them, American and United do not use DC-10's on any other routes other than to Hawaii. Is there a reason so many airlines fly these jets to Hawaii.




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19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineFLY777UAL From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4512 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (14 years 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 1493 times:

(FYI--United does use DC-10's on other routes)

The DC-10 is used to Hawaii for quite a few reasons. It is a great people hauler, and, according to Continental, it roughly costs the same amount to operate as a 777 (although the 777 has a potential of 30 extra pax).

Because flights to Hawaii are fairly short, (approx. 5 hrs), and West Coast-Hawaii is the longest overwater stretch in the world without a diversion airport, three engines are perfect for Hawaii. Two (and four) engines work just as well, but the third engine adds that extra degree of safety just incase you are midway to Hawaii and need to turn back because of an engine failure (2.5 hrs to a diversion airport from the mdy. pt.).

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L


User currently offlineCba From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 4531 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (14 years 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 1469 times:

Uh, I hate to break it to you, but you're just as screwed in a trijet during en engine failure as you are in a twin engine plane. On the DC-10, if one of the wing engines fails, then you are in trouble because you will have thrust on one side and not the other. Also, the DC-10 was designed to operate using 3 engines. If one fails, it won't have enough thrust to really maintain airspeed.

User currently offlineFLY777UAL From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4512 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (14 years 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 1471 times:

But you're fucked even harder if the only working engine suddenly decides to give out in a twin...

I'm not sure I understand your point about having thrust on one side and not the other...

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L


User currently offlinePenguinflies From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 988 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (14 years 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1454 times:

Hello here is my two pennies

Regarding Hawaiian, they fly Dc-10s because at when they reoragnized, they were able to neg. leases with AA to be dirt cheap. They also need a plane that could go non-stop to Tahiti from both LAX and HNL.

The three engine theroy also sounds nice, but I disagree Cba. I disagree because of UA 232 accident where they could maintain airspeed (though not much control) with two engines after the tail failed (and some say the real reason they crashed is because they were going approx 220 knots at touchdown, and that kind of speed will kill anything that touches the ground, including the DC-10). And just like any other aircraft, when a wing engine fails, all pilots do is adjust opposite rudder to correct for heading and they can continue on.


User currently offlineCarioca Canuck From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (14 years 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1451 times:

FLY777UAL....

Cba is referring to "yaw". A lack of power on the starboard side will result in an aircraft requiring some serious port rudder to maintain a straight line and vice versa.


User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8005 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (14 years 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1443 times:

If you want to fly a DC-10 to Hawaii, your chances are going down real soon! Both AA and UA plan to phase out DC-10 operations from the US West Coast to Hawaii in a few months and replace them with 763ER's and 772/772ER's. Only Hawaiian Airlines will fly the D10, and it's not known how long will this airline keep flying this plane.

User currently offlineUAL Bagsmasher From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 2146 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (14 years 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1427 times:

UA flies their DC10's on the mainland too. We fly them ORD-DEN, ORD-SEA, and DEN-SEA among others.

User currently offlineTropicalSkies From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (14 years 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1422 times:

I'm surprised that someone hasn't mentioned the cargo space in a DC-10. The main reason that older jets dominate Hawaii at the present is that they have more lower deck cargo space. This cargo makes them alot of money. But, as the jets increase in age, ease in maintaining them decreases, therefore it is now more economical to replace the jets with 767s. Newer and cheeper to operate.

Personally I think the DC-10 is a graceful bird an I hate to see her go. Oh well, welcome to the world of progress.  

Tropical Skies-
Fly to new horizons


User currently offlineFLY777UAL From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4512 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (14 years 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1416 times:

Thanks, Carioca.

I understood that there would be some yaw and that it is correctible, just wasn't sure how much rudder you'd need to correct it.

Thanks again,

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L


User currently offlineAdam84 From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 1400 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (14 years 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 1405 times:

NW, CO and HA are probably going to operate DC-10's to/from Hawaii for quite awhile still. Im also sure that United isnt retiring the last one yet bacause they still show them on the ORD-HNL for June 2001.

User currently offlinePmk From United States of America, joined May 1999, 664 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (14 years 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1396 times:

Hi Gang:

Just a couple of things:

The DC-10 has several advantages for the HNL routes:

1.It hauls around 300+ Passengers in most configurations.

2.It does haul quite a bit of cargo.

3.It can make the run quite easily as far as range, the DC-10 is quite fuel efficient on a run of that time.

4.You know me always the business man, think about the market. Did you think (did it hurt?   ) who goes to Hawaii, vacationers!!! On a New York to London there are MANY business travelers, on a HNL run you have vacationers; people on vacation DON'T CARE!!! As long as the plane gets them there -on time- and the service is okay they're happy!

5.You only mentioned the majors, every charter company that makes that run uses DC-10's, a few use L-1011's, but it has the perfect market for an old aircraft, it has 3 engines which increases percieved safety, it hauls MUCH people and cargo to an island, interiors don't matter (ever see what little old ladies going to Hawaii wear!!) and most people travel coach, perfect for the DC-10!

Peter


User currently offlineFlygga From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (14 years 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1390 times:

PMK, you also forgot to mention that a good number of passengers on those Hawaii flights are flying for FREE. It is a very popular destination for people using their acquired frequent flyer miles!

Also Delta and ATA use the TriStars to Hawaii from California and Skyservice USA uses the DC10. Also United still flies their B747-200's. SFO-Hawaii flights are perfect for UAL's elderly planes. Most flights depart in the morning and the aircraft returns home to the SFO maintenace base everynight so if any repairs are necessary, the are easlily taken care of.

Richard Silagi



User currently offline777gk From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1641 posts, RR: 18
Reply 13, posted (14 years 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 1382 times:

If an airline is going to fly a plane to Hawaii, it had better be a good cargo-hauler, since 40-50% of ALL passengers on those flights are flying free!

Another interesting fact- In a plane with 38 First-class seats, usually 8-10 people are on their honeymoon!


User currently offlineRipcordd From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1160 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (14 years 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1377 times:

Not everyone flies for free they only allow like 6 to 10 percent of the panes capicty to fly with their miles for free after that is filled up no more awards...

User currently offlineTropicalSkies From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (14 years 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1363 times:

The DC-10, L-1011, and even MD-11 are very,very good for the Hawaiian routes due to the cargo capacity, as mentioned before.
What I see for the future of Hawaiian air travel is an increase in Combi aircraft. Why? Well, you sacrifice the extra cargo space of an MD-11, DC-10, and TriStar, what can you do, lose money? After all, most people ARE flying free, or went to a travel agency and got aa 50% discount on their fare as a package deal. No matter what, if you don't have that cargo space below deck like the -10, you better buy a Combi, because you're screwed if you don't.

Tropical Skies-
Fly to new horizons


User currently offlineModesto2 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2795 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (14 years 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1363 times:

I agree with most responses: airlines need a large aircraft and the three engines help. To "Cba" a DC-10 can fly perfectly well with one engine out. While an aircraft has optimal operating parameters (and this doesn't include 2 engines on the DC-10), they need to be designed to fly "minus an engine". And for the thrust differential, as someone else stated, adjust with the rudders.

User currently offlineUSAirA340 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (14 years 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1348 times:

I was on an American Airlines DC-10 from Honolulu (HNL) to Chicago (ORD). It was terrible! I was in the middle row of seats and guess where I sat. Yes, if you said the middle, you were correct. i had the middle seat in the middle row. Plus the movie screen wouldnt work. And they charge you for headphones. Next time, ill take another airline. http://www.GlobalAirlineNetwork.com

User currently offlineUSAirA340 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (14 years 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1346 times:

I was on an American Airlines DC-10 from Honolulu (HNL) to Chicago (ORD). It was terrible! I was in the middle row of seats and guess where I sat. Yes, if you said the middle, you were correct. i had the middle seat in the middle row. Plus the movie screen wouldnt work. And they charge you for headphones. Next time, ill take another airline. http://www.GlobalAirlineNetwork.com

User currently offlineMlsrar From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 1417 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (14 years 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1340 times:

One of the biggest considerations airlines have is the sheer number of both non-rev, FF rewarders, and bulk purchases an airline has. Working for Mark Travel corp., we own United Vacations Hawaii--Mark Travel purchases around 35-40% of the seats during peak times at a SIGNIFICANT discount. Funjet vacation does the same on CO, DL, TW, and AMR. Many airlines, (though only CO actually tells you), all have special "Hawaii Configurations," on their -10s, and UA does the same on their 763s. The only airline that I can think of that doesn't participate in that is NW, since their seasonal DTW-HNL; MSP-HNL; are operated also on a daily basis from origins such as MKE and MEM.

Sun Country (also owned by Mark Travel Corp), has a special configuration on their DC-10-15s with a capacity of 360! Those aircraft were acquired from AeroMexico, have a range of 5900nmi with full pax payload, and also have the lovely seating configuration of 3-4-3 on their -10s, just like ATA on their -1011s.

The -10s will probably be in service for another 2 years on the HNL routes. As the 10s are slowly phased out on domestic routes, airlines can operate consistently with a fleet of spares aorund just in case.

Regards,

Michael



I mean, for the right price I’ll fight a lion. - Mike Tyson
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